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Mechanics Paid $2 Per Hour For Boeing, Airbus Jets  
User currently offlineunited777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1657 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 25258 times:

This story was aired on a local station here in Seattle. http://www.kirotv.com/news/27915082/detail.html

Pretty scary stuff! Any thoughts?

149 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5130 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 25122 times:

Aeroman has a truly excellent reputation, indeed better than some stateside shops, for returning planes that don't arrive with a million writeups that then have to be fixed locally. Given how long Aeroman has been working on American carriers' aircraft, I don't find this report "scary" at all. (I was frankly more concerned about B6's decision to send stuff to Sterling in New York than to Aeroman, mostly because I wondered how much after-work was going to be necessary, not because I thought it would be "unsafe". Based upon who is doing their work now, I think my inclination was correct.)

PS OMG!!! Aircraft are receiving MRO in HONG KONG!!! Horrors! I'll bet Cathay isn't worried about having its jets serviced there... What's frightening is the jingoistic and xenophobic slant of this reporting.

[Edited 2011-05-17 23:25:58]

User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 25018 times:

Employee; "Boss I want a 10% raise!"
Employer; "Sure; you can have an extra $0.20 an hour."



ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5432 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 24985 times:

Quoting united777 (Thread starter):
Any thoughts?

Hmm, not bad. I know they try to make it seem bad but we are talking about airplanes the ultimate in mobile systems. That they have the world to choose from for maintenance (i.e.: outsourcing) should not be surprising. The key thing is that the quality is kept up and the work is done to spec. The complaints in the article are not all that dissimilar to what you can here in shops in the USA. And by their work so far, Aeroman is doing a good job.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 24890 times:

Quoting united777 (Thread starter):
Pretty scary stuff! Any thoughts?

So planes made in Everett and France only have to be maintained in Europe and the US to make everyone happy? I don't buy it. So, if a gallon of milk costs $4 in the US and $.40 in Central America airlines are supposed to pay the same $40 an hour or more that union mechanics make here when they would be perfectly happy with $4 in C. America? Does that make them any less competent?



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinenighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5127 posts, RR: 34
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 24615 times:

What a load of crap! these workers are paid $2 an hour, which is below US minimum wages, so therefore it must be unsafe? Please! What they fail to realise (although they even mention it in the article) is that this is a good wage for a local employee. Why is it such an issue how much they are paid?

If a Texas based repair facility is paying its mechanics less than New York based repair facility, does that make the Texas one unsafe?

Nothing more than sensationalist journalism.



That'll teach you
User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2096 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 24416 times:

So the reporter rents a plane. Has the pilot land at the airport. Taxi up and down past hangars a few times, looking at the back of some Airbus and Boeings, then pays the guy who fills the drinks machines to tell him how bad their work is. Somebody signed off on this expediture for this BS, now that is the person I would start paying $2/hour.

User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 24080 times:
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While it irks me that 100 percent of any kind of maintenance work isn't done by FAA certified US based mechanics, i'm glad to know that the individual airlines have their own personnel on site to ensure that the work is done to their specs.

I would hope that the following requirements are in play for any foreign repair facility:

Employees must be able to speak, read and write english.

Only FAA certified technicians are ever permitted to work on the aircraft. Period. Preferrably these technicians should be factory trained.

The work must be done to the satisfaction of the supervising airline employee or it must be torn down and redone then reinspected and this cycle will repeat until the work is 100 percent error free.

The supervising airline employee has the right to review the credentials and experience of any employee working on company aircraft and if those credentials and or experience don't meet the expectations of the supervising airline employee, the contractor will immediately be removed from the job.

Interesting that TechOps started taking outside business in 2004. My gut reaction is "nice show of company pride....I guess they really don't give a sh*t whose airplanes they're working on." Company pride would dictate that Delta technicians only work on Delta airplanes. Then again, they really don't have a say in the matter.



Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 24010 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 7):
Interesting that TechOps started taking outside business in 2004. My gut reaction is "nice show of company pride....I guess they really don't give a sh*t whose airplanes they're working on." Company pride would dictate that Delta technicians only work on Delta airplanes. Then again, they really don't have a say in the matter.

Companies exist to make money for the shareholders. "Company pride" would be about taking all the outside business you can get, to add to the bottom line (and, as a nice bonus, to add more jobs in the group).


User currently offlineCM767 From Panama, joined Dec 2004, 651 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 22914 times:

I was waiting for a report like this, I would call it “WN incident fallout”. I am sure that if there are any irregularities from Aeroman the FAA would have acted up long ago.


But The Best Thing God Has Created Is A New Day
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17365 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 22363 times:

AMR pays its mechanics a heck of a lot more, and they've run into the most maintenance issues of any US carrier. Maybe pay is directly proportional to maintenance violations 


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineWoof From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 22226 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 7):
I would hope that the following requirements are in play for any foreign repair facility:

Employees must be able to speak, read and write english.

Only FAA certified technicians are ever permitted to work on the aircraft. Period. Preferrably these technicians should be factory trained.

The work must be done to the satisfaction of the supervising airline employee or it must be torn down and redone then reinspected and this cycle will repeat until the work is 100 percent error free.

The supervising airline employee has the right to review the credentials and experience of any employee working on company aircraft and if those credentials and or experience don't meet the expectations of the supervising airline employee, the contractor will immediately be removed from the job.

I agree with all you have written apart from the word 'foreign' in the first sentence. Otherwise the whole post is biased to the assumption that the 'foreign' work is likely to be of inferior quality. There is the possibility that the reverse is true.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 22145 times:

Quoting CM767 (Reply 9):
I am sure that if there are any irregularities from Aeroman the FAA would have acted up long ago.

I think you've got too much trust in the FAA to crack down on violations when doing so would cost carriers a fair amount of money.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 793 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 22147 times:

If all things were equal I wouldn't have a problem with the practice of sending heavy maintenance to third world countries. The problem is, it isn't. When they are taking people from off the street who could identify an airplane 3 out of 5 tries one day and the next they are working on them, this is not equal. I don't mind having non-mechanics wash the outside of an airplane, but when it comes to nuts, bolts, rivets, etc, I don't want them touching the airplane.

Everytime I fly an airplane that has come from heavy maintenance it is a basket case. They will have multiple write ups with really goofy things going on. These mechanic items create distractions on the flight deck that can detract from a safe environment. Personally, I wish all airlines would cease using these practices both foreign and domestic, but it doesn't seem to be an issue that anyone wants to tackle.

727forever



727forever
User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 813 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 21761 times:

If a US based airline sponsored foreign pilots to get FAA pilot certification what's to stop them from hiring $2 per hour pilots?

Not saying it's possible.., just throwing it out there.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 21614 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 14):
If a US based airline sponsored foreign pilots to get FAA pilot certification what's to stop them from hiring $2 per hour pilots?

The fact that they'd be working in the US, and would thus be subject to the US minimum wage. So they'd have to pay them at least $7.25/hr. Not that that's much better, of course....

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 21391 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
Companies exist to make money for the shareholders

That is one possible, out of 7 corporate functions. It's up to the company what approach they take. For airlines it's mostly customer satisfaction which then, ideally, translates into share-/stakeholder happiness.

But about the outsourcing.. I am sure any airline would love to employ nationals to work on their planes exclusively. A prosperous domestic economy is in their best interest. And I'm sure most ignorant people who get their panties up in a bunch about companies that don't, would rather have them do that too. But they wouldn't be willing to pay for it.

First world citizens have way too many problems. They want the best quality meat, but aren't willing to pay for it. They want eggs from happy chicken, but won't pay a cent more for them. They want the cheapest, mass produced grain and then wonder why the pesticides used extinct all bees. You can't have one without the other. And every child understands that. Which is why people who even pay attention to such articles shouldn't be paid any attention in the first place.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 21319 times:

Quoting something (Reply 16):
That is one possible, out of 7 corporate functions. It's up to the company what approach they take.

Not true, at least under U.S. law. Management has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders, and no one else. If management puts someone else's interest (including their own) above that of the shareholders, then they are legally liable to the shareholders for any losses resulting from that decision, at least in theory.

The question of whether that's the right approach is a very interesting one, but it's the approach we have today.


User currently offlineWisdom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20996 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
Hmm, not bad. I know they try to make it seem bad but we are talking about airplanes the ultimate in mobile systems.
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 4):
So, if a gallon of milk costs $4 in the US and $.40 in Central America airlines are supposed to pay the same $40 an hour or more that union mechanics make here when they would be perfectly happy with $4 in C. America? Does that make them any less competent?
Quoting CM767 (Reply 9):
I am sure that if there are any irregularities from Aeroman the FAA would have acted up long ago.

There's a saying to go with this. You get what you pay for.

I don't know this company but I know one or two things about maintenance outsourcing to undeveloped countries.
Most mechanics in those countries can't speak nor read English properly. About any task carried out on aircraft needs to be carried out following and in accordance with a procedure described in the manuals issued by the manufacturers.
Nothing is allowed to be left to guesswork. In case of doubt or interpretation, the MRO should try to figure it out using engineering resources and even contact the manufacturer.

FAA or EASA delegate to company individuals who work in quality departments.
These administrations don't have the resources to follow-up each individual task, they can only audit an entire system and follow-up on major incidents. Except for reported matters, they have no idea what is going on in the MRO.

Even more scary is that there's a reason why a gallon of milk costs only 40 cents there and 4 dollars in the western world. The flip side of the coin is that education lags behind in those countries.

I've seen maintenance being carried out on aircraft in developed countries and elsewhere. The right question to ask, no matter the place, is not if all tasks are carried out without irregularities, but if any one task is carried out without an irregularity of some kind. The next question is then to know what kind of irregularities they are and how they affect the aircraft.

Such irregularities can be found anywhere at anytime, however the ones found on aircraft maintained in poor countries usually take the cake. In such places, cutting corners is no longer a sidestep filled with guilt but boring routine and even a matter of personal pride and demonstration of personal skills.

Get real. Even Boeing is being investigated on for workmanship issues.
We've seen the terrifying documentaries and people who work in the environment can easily relate it to situations in their own workplace.

Letting for-profit companies take charge of safety presents a conflict of interest.
FAA and EASA hire ex-engineers to fill the top ranks. They know what's going on. However, without a commercial aviation system, they would have nothing to supervise on and be out of a job. Conflict of interest.

There's no easy solution to this very serious problem.
The best we can do is to cross our fingers and hope for the best.

[Edited 2011-05-18 08:46:22]

User currently offline7673mech From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 711 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20844 times:
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I agree that it is a shame for American and European mechanics when planes are taken overseas.
That being said - having overseen many checks - the work is comparable.
Airlines have quarterly and annual reviews of the HMV providers - for the most part Aeroman and the like are equal too or better then the domestics for quality. The in house maintenance departments get judged also (for the airlines that do some heavy work in-house) and while their quality is usually good - their span times are miserable. (A check done in-house is never done on-time or on budget.) Yes I can prove this - I have reports but no I can not share them.

As far as everyone speaking English: this is starting to become a problem even domestically - with legal immigrants.

As far as everyone being certified: Not the case in US. Certified mechanics often sign for non-certified ones. Don't forget while the final flight line Boeing mechanics are certified - thanks to the FAA forcing Boeing to do this - the average factory Boeing worker is not certified.

As for as training: Unless you are getting a 787 - or adding a new type to your fleet - no technicians are factory trained anymore. Trainers will go to OEM schools - but they will then set up in-house training programs which are usually boring and not well run.

Supervising airline employees are not on the aircraft all day watching. They walk the aircraft several times a day but can not always be on the aircraft. When the accept they aircraft they do have work redone. 99% of the errors that occur at repair stations are of a paperwork nature not a workmanship nature.
We can request training records and usually get them. Some airlines write into their contract how many mechanics must be certified. And actually I can think of several that require all mechanics working their jets be certified.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8237 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20732 times:

Quoting united777 (Thread starter):
Pretty scary stuff! Any thoughts?

Scary how? It's how things wotk these days. I see you have a flag of India next to your user name. My 100K/year IT job is being outsourced to India to a guy making $20K/year. Now that's scary  

[Edited 2011-05-18 08:52:33]

User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5456 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20697 times:

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 5):
If a Texas based repair facility is paying its mechanics less than New York based repair facility, does that make the Texas one unsafe?

While I agree in principal with what you are saying, one could relate it to RJ pay rates versus mainline pay rates, and on a.net the conclusion is often that pay=quality. I wonder, though, if a captain at a foreign carrier makes more than a captain at a domestic carrier if the foreign captain is then deemed "better"?

Any time wage is used in relation to quality, I cringe.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20283 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 7):
Interesting that TechOps started taking outside business in 2004. My gut reaction is "nice show of company pride....I guess they really don't give a sh*t whose airplanes they're working on." Company pride would dictate that Delta technicians only work on Delta airplanes. Then again, they really don't have a say in the matter.

I have visited Delta Techops, and they take pride that they perform quality work on other airlines' equipment at a competitive price.

It truly is a win-win.

David


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7143 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20169 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 20):
Scary how? It's how things wotk these days. I see you have a flag of India next to your user name. My 100K/year IT job is being outsourced to India to a guy making $20K/year. Now that's scary

If the company your company has outsourced to is anything like the company one of my previous employers outsourced to then the serice will improve, the Indians work round the clock and our network up time improved dramatically. The company I worked for was NCR.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19555 times:

Quoting Woof (Reply 11):
I agree with all you have written apart from the word 'foreign' in the first sentence. Otherwise the whole post is biased to the assumption that the 'foreign' work is likely to be of inferior quality. There is the possibility that the reverse is true.


The latter seems to be the "conventional wisdom" when in comes to automobiles.


25 flyingcat : Before many mention Delta Techops it should be clear what they do and why. Overall airframe work is much cheaper to perform at an MRO overseas, that i
26 Post contains images airbazar : It's the same company so "outsourced" wasn't the correct term. And no, things got a lot worse. It takes 4 of them to do the job of one of us and it's
27 TheBatman : This has been discussed before. You wanna pay some guy in El Salvador $2/hr? Fine. Some goes for Mexico City, Beijing, whatever. If they are working o
28 Post contains images DocLightning : "Becuz we all kno that peepul who espick espanish canno repair aeroplains." Bunch of racist, jingoistic, xenophobic... Oh, you already caught that, di
29 TheBatman : Sure they can. You're looking at one. They only difference is that I have FAA certification and training to do so. Really? A Latino-American, bilingu
30 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Following this logic, only people who speak French properly should be allowed to work on Airbus aircraft. BTW, you'd be excluded because of your writ
31 PacificWest : How much El Salvador workers are being paid in USD is completely irrelevant... and more than likely, it's slightly to moderately higher than the wage
32 Post contains links Wingscrubber : Isn't it the case that aircraft registered in a particular country have to be maintained by mechanics/engineers qualified to the standards of that na
33 Post contains images WarRI1 : Good for you, a bunch of advocates of paying lower wages is what I see. It just never ceases to amaze me, how people advocate the loss of jobs in the
34 TheBatman : If it's an Airbus belonging to Air France, yes. The Technician would have to follow guidelines set in place by Air France and would need an EASA cert
35 Kaiarahi : As far as I know. But the poster I was responding to was advocating that only FAA certified technicians be allowed to work on aircraft.
36 474218 : Some people seem to put a lot of faith in certification. Will I have worked with certified mechanics at a large bankrupt American airline that would h
37 qualitydr : I wasn't aware of so much work being done in Beijing, although it doesn't surprise me after thinking about it. As for the jingoistic reporting, they m
38 Wisdom : Yes, except that Airbus manuals are in English. You are free to comment, however I do not see the need to take radical positions. You are taking the
39 TheBatman : You're looking at a card-carrying union member who has lost his job twice due to outsourcing. I have never advocated sending US jobs overseas. The ar
40 Kaiarahi : Read the post I responded to: Perhaps the EADS website is wrong, but it does say French (and English). Maybe someone who works in AF MX can tell us.
41 TheBatman : I did. Again, referring to foreign repair facilities working on US CARRIER aircraft.
42 max999 : I'd like to see any job in Hong Kong that pays US$2 per hour as the article implies. While there's no minimum wage in Hong Kong, the cost of living i
43 goblin211 : Hardly anything to think about. If labor is cheaper there, than fine, but the price of labor has nothing to do with the competency of workers. In fact
44 Post contains links 474218 : Suggest reading the following: http://www.aviation-database.com/avi...1/FAA-foreign-repair-stations.html
45 TheBatman : Great. So it's even worse than I thought. The FAA certifies the whole repair station, and no one in the whole place has a US A&P certificate. Tha
46 474218 : Welcome to the real world!
47 Flaps : I am somewhat surprised at the lack of comments regarding overpaying for services. I think a reality check is in order for a lot of people. The globe
48 Post contains images WarRI1 : I have no doubt about that, I should have made that more clear. I put the checkmark on to say that I agree with your words. Hang in there. Good to he
49 flyingwaeldar : Small correction, since May 1st 2011 there is a minimum wage law with the hourly rate set at "HK$ 28.- per hour worked". That translates roughly into
50 Post contains images nwarooster : When I was in maintenance, the company always was in a hurry to get the aircraft out of check. Fortunately, aircraft have redundant systems and they a
51 hz747300 : I find it funny that sometimes in HKG, it appears to be a Delta paradise at the HAECO area of the airport. It's great. And I'd agree with max999, no o
52 Post contains links wjcandee : BTW, one thing that amused me about the referenced article. The reporter complains that they were run off by security every time they got close, Um...
53 Woof : One of the wisest posts I've ever read on this whole site. Well done to you sir.
54 DocLightning : THAT is a completely different issue. But raising this as a "safety issue" is bull. This is an economic issue and nothing more. Raising it as a "safe
55 WarRI1 : Well Doc, there you and I disagree, to me, it is like the hospital having a nurse deliver a baby, becuase it is cheaper. That is also an economic iss
56 Post contains links wjcandee : For some perspective, America West/USAirways used TIMCO to do heavy maintenance on its aircraft (i.e. since at least 2001). USAirways still uses TIMCO
57 stratosphere : You know rooster (and you know you I am) I could never understand that logic my current employer does the same thing. They will pull tasks out of the
58 DocLightning : Really? The best docs are usually those in the academic centers, who are not the best-paid. Condescend to me what I ought to know about my own profes
59 LAXintl : It seems this topic comes up every once in a while. Sadly it usually turns into some form of us vs them xenophobic mud slinging contest. The truth is
60 jimbobjoe : Does United really send 40% of its work to Beijing? That seemed a little high, even for heavy maintenance.
61 Post contains links airways45 : Same old propaganda from US unions. It's also cr*p. Yes, while the USA sends out many aircraft for labor driven airframe maintenance, it performs MORE
62 WarRI1 : I am just going by my experiance, with my family,friends, and talk. The Doctors who are the best, seem to make the most money. The Doctor's in Boston
63 Post contains links Wisdom : That's an easy thing to say. I've seen aircraft return from heavy maintenance in low wage countries in worse shape than they were before they left. I
64 Wisdom : One thing I'd like to point out is that often times it's not the mechanics at overseas repair facilities that are the main problem but the people who
65 Post contains images sna752 : Not to nitpick, but it'd probably classified under political policy, at least on a micro level. Economic policy (from the airline's perspective) woul
66 Post contains images flipdewaf : yes and if you give someone a wage $10/hr higher do they all of a sudden have a better skill set? or do they some how miraculously gain more experien
67 wnbob : No, but if the rate is below the local living wage then the worker can be ezly be pressured to cut corners because HE NEEDS that job. BTW, Hong Kong/
68 413X3 : That's a very misleading comment. Hong Kong is a small financial center city, where businesses from all around Asia have used it as a central hub, li
69 WarRI1 : That is the religion of commerce, needy, desparate people. You are correct. I advocate higher wages for China and its workers, along with all workers
70 WarRI1 : According to the business advocates on here, most certainly, you only earn your higher wages, you are not entitled without hard work, and experiance.
71 MaverickM11 : The problem is there is no correlation between compensation and quality of work. The expensive labor in the US is no better than whatever is being do
72 LDVAviation : There is an important distinction. Because almost all of AMR's maintenance takes place in the US, it is more closely scrutinized by the FAA. As far a
73 WarRI1 : Does that noble ideal include management? I do not think so. The modern standard according to you, does not include skill, equals pay? When did that
74 WarRI1 : Amen Brother, I certainly agree with you. We all know the industry could not do this without the complicity of our government as usual. I think it is
75 commavia : Reading through this entire thread, it strikes me that virtually all of this discussion - or, perhaps more specifically, what this discussion has evol
76 flipdewaf : yes, welcome to life. things aren't always as rosey and idealistic, and we don't live in a homogenous society. From what you are saying though (I don
77 MaverickM11 : Of course it does, but tell me how one would legally manage a US carrier from El Salvador. It seems every month we reach a new low in terms of total
78 WarRI1 : I am glad you agree about the prevalence of hypocrisy in this world. I must admit, that I do not understand your reply. I will say this, if one makes
79 WarRI1 : I was speaking in general terms, all mangement, not just airlines. The word Incentive is used so many times on here, it is laughable. We then have so
80 tdscanuck : Why laughable? It's *extremely* well documented, across all industries. Money just doesn't motivate. Tom.
81 WarRI1 : I cannot speak for all, I cannot understand your point. Do people work for the heck of it? Do people cut your stones off for advancement, because the
82 tdscanuck : More money does not produce better performance. Extremely well documented and, to my knowledge, no exceptions have been discovered in any field. For
83 Post contains images LAXintl : Advocating for broader higher wages does nothing but increase cost, create inflationary pressure and ultimately drive up prices for the consumer, whi
84 seabosdca : Generally true, although there are some gray areas at the edges (e.g., if you pay too little, you may get enough people to do the work in a weak job
85 LAXintl : I think an important point to make is that left alone, its the free market will determine what the appropriate wages are. Each position will have its
86 seabosdca : I won't hijack the thread any further about this, but I'll just mention again that -- in both these cases -- it's far from clear that the market alon
87 MaverickM11 : Well I'd never expect any actual data... Once you strip out incentives or pay for performance, why would there be any correlation between pay and qua
88 7673mech : First of all - that is not true. Supervisors, leads and mechanics in any leadership position need to be certified at US repair stations. Most I have
89 WarRI1 : Obviously, you worked in a different world than I did. What is the term Incentive pay used for? Look it up. Is there anyone out there who has ever wo
90 sna752 : Why's that so bad? Income is relative. Nope. Unless you belong to a union. Or if your plane gets sent to South Carolina to get built instead of Washi
91 tdscanuck : You're crossing volume of work with performance. They're not the same thing. If a guy wants to work twice as long so he gets paid twice as much, you
92 madnish30 : Scary indeed. But the sad part is that the mechanics agreed to work or rather had no choice but to work for such low wages. Really surprising.
93 seabosdca : Those are the exception, not the rule. Very few companies are so bound up in a vision of their founders, or, for that matter, so insanely profitable.
94 474218 : Very true. Additionally, all the inspectors in the world can not improved the quality of the workmanship built in to a product. I think you are confu
95 Post contains images MaverickM11 : NBA players make obscene amounts too, but how are you going to get from there to mechanics' wages? And that's what everyone is doing for El Salvador
96 Post contains links AADC10 : While mechanics getting $2 per hour is does not necessarily mean the work is substandard, it is not a good sign. If you were a mechanic, would you bot
97 LAXintl : You could very well say that the US wage market is skewed as well, and cant follow market forces. Why should a AA mechanic get $36.30/hr on average?
98 474218 : "would you bother to get training and FAA certification if you were going to get $2 per hour". FAA certification is not required for anyone in a fore
99 WarRI1 : I hope you enjoy China. Trust me, you do not have to worry about any of those. I suggest you start dealing with reality, not Empirical analysis. That
100 WarRI1 : The question is, is the paying of more money, an incentive to work harder and better? The boss, corporation sets the standards for pay, quality and p
101 WarRI1 : I am sorry, but that falls into the no thinking category, are we having a discussion, or just advocating slave wages everywhere?
102 sna752 : I enjoy buying things from China! You offered to provide the data! It's good to see that you're a man of your word. Before you betlittle the math- un
103 tdscanuck : Yes, I get that that's the question. And the answer is very well established to be "no." We're talking about changing wages to influence quality *at
104 WarRI1 : We are doing such a great job, are we not? You know what you can do with most studies? We are going down the tubes economically, study that.
105 WarRI1 : Wage increases are the vitals of one doing his job well. A reward for faithful work, in modern times in the US, this was so. Inflation is always ther
106 Post contains images sna752 : We are doing a good job, in part. There is also room for improvement. I do -we can learn from them. I've also learned in my studies that people tend
107 MaverickM11 : I know, thinknig is hard sometimes but give it a try. How do mechanics--or anyone--get higher wages, by decreasing someone else's wages, whether it's
108 AirNZ : Completely incorrect. The doctor in your example is paid higher to do more skillful work.......and which is a different thing entirely from increasin
109 WarRI1 : It seems that we can agree on the needs improvement part. It is not shocking to me. If you would be so kind, would you point that out to me, the prom
110 WarRI1 : You have a typo in thinking, I point this out just becuase it is timely, I make plenty of them myself. I will try harder to think, I will, I will. Th
111 Post contains images WarRI1 : Let me say that I was inspired, motivated, more loving of my company, more driven to excel, more willing to learn, more wiling to jump into emergenci
112 AirNZ : Wait, there is a substantial contradiction here.......you clearly stated everything you did was done solely for more money, yet you're clearly trying
113 WarRI1 : I am struggling to not laugh, I intenionally overstated my reply, lighten up, you will live longer. You guys are easy, as we say. You work the way yo
114 sna752 : The offer is below. I accepted before you revoked... Not quite. The teachers themselves are not the problem. The unions are or at least, can be. It's
115 WarRI1 : A rhetorical question, no more, no less. I hope you do not sign contracts, no offer there at all. (do you really need me) not I will provide. Once ag
116 noelg : Would I be correct in assuming that people who have a problem with maintenance carried out abroad would therefore never fly on a 'foreign' carrier? Be
117 flipdewaf : So WarR1, Money is the driver of everything? Ever thought that these guys are offered $2/hr or it becomes too expansive for people to fly their planes
118 AirNZ : Ah! I see, in other words you change the rhetoric/story when challenged on the contradiction you displayed so think about who's laughing lol!! Right,
119 WarRI1 : I cannot speak for your country, but here it sure is. I asked my family, and friends today, what makes them do a good job, appreciate their job, they
120 WarRI1 : I used the McDonalds example to show that a dead end job, makes you a drone, you will do exactly what you have to do, nothing more. Yes, believe it o
121 Post contains images sna752 : Clearly there is some confusion, so I'll restate it so that we can gather the most accurate picture of your view. AirNZ said for the EXACT SAME job.
122 474218 : Since you seem to me consumed with the amount of money you make, why don't you take a management job. They get paid more than mechanics and there is
123 WarRI1 : I have been retired for 131/2 years, kind of late for me. What I am consumed with is people making a living wage, and the people who are, blathering
124 WarRI1 : Is it a question, or not, do you know what an offer, versus a question is? I never offered, I am not one to put myself in a bind like that. How could
125 Post contains images sna752 : You don't have that data. If you did, you would have provided it. But 'facts' are being made up right and left about crazy nonsense. So since you can
126 Post contains images flipdewaf : Sounds like the "university of life" that pub folk talk about to me. I was referring to my own typos that I had had to correct in my edit. Well that
127 AirNZ : With all due respect, the above is absolute nonsense. By what parameter are you deciding what particular job is 'dead end', or what the integrity of
128 WarRI1 : What we have here is failure to communicate, sounds like a line from a movie. We have here an old fellow, who does not swallow all the bull from a te
129 dfwrevolution : Ironically, this is the complete opposite of textbook. You are looking at a real-world example of what happens when you have an equalization of labor
130 tdscanuck : If it was bull from a textbook, or bull from company types, you might have a point. But it's not. It's what actually happens, all over the world, eve
131 sna752 : WAIT. What did you earn per hour when you started working?
132 WarRI1 : Baloney again. My wife was in management in one of the largests banks in the US. She, along with many others were directed to tell the people under h
133 tdscanuck : Of course. People get pissed off when they're getting one wage and somebody else, at the same company doing the same job, gets more. That's normal. A
134 Post contains images sna752 : They had the *identical* experience (years worked at the firm)? The *identical* degree, certification(s), and/or credential(s)? They all work the exa
135 WarRI1 : Yes they do get upset. I still say that money is the chief promoter of production, and quality. It does not make sense to say that it does not. We al
136 gigneil : That sort of attitude is exactly why unions are in this mess. People are not inherently good, sadly. Most people are quite bad, and don't give a damn
137 LAXintl : The facts in the world prove otherwise. Money in itself does not equal more production nor quality. I don't know what job you did in life, however if
138 WarRI1 : First real job, piece work wages, varied from day to day, hour to hour, all according to my interest in making money at that time, that hour. I was s
139 WarRI1 : About that, there is no doubt, most people do not give a damn like you say. The Republican Party is solidly on the side of caring for those who need
140 WarRI1 : I said earlier, maybe machines can do that, we are not machines, yet. I will say, and say again, money, pay promotes quantity and quality. Ask someon
141 LAXintl : Not really. If I was an employer I expect a process to be completed which they are being paid for, I'm not very interested with the soft and fluffy e
142 gigneil : Sadly, WarRI, I have to agree with everyone else on this. The reality is Americans nowadays want to slide by and make the maximum buck for the minimum
143 WarRI1 : There is an old saying, not from a union person either, "You get what you pay for" I have lived my life that way. I expect to get paid a good wage, f
144 gigneil : Its not desperation is I think the disconnect, here. The people in Hong Kong are getting paid a perfectly livable wage there for their services. The r
145 WarRI1 : I understand that in some economies, it is a livable wage, no question. In many other cases, it is pure exploitation. I understand the topic, the sta
146 tdscanuck : Yes, that's very clear. What's not at all clear is *why* you say that because when you pay people more you *don't* get an increase in quality. This h
147 WarRI1 : I know we will never agree on this. I hope this is not too personal a question, I would like to know what motivates you personally. My wife asked me
148 tdscanuck : Yes, I suspect that's true. I love what I do...not for what it gets me, but for the actual work I do every day. I get to do cool things with airplane
149 Post contains images WarRI1 : Ok Tom, good points, good discussion. I am glad you have job satisfaction, very important in life. This is what makes the world go round, and interes
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