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Will AF/KL Order 787/350 At Paris Airshow?  
User currently offlineqfa787380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5836 times:

This one has been on the go for quite a while with an order expected to be up to 100 frames(firm/option/purchase rights).
Late last year AF said the decision would be deferred until this year. Surely the Paris airshow would be a great time to announce this order.
Now what will the result be?
IMO, a 787/350 mix and the rumour mill has been quite consistent for a while that the mix could favour Boeing 60:40 or 70:30. We know that KL had committed to some 788 leases from a ME lessor that has since cancelled their 787 commitment. I would guess 788/9/359 for KL and 789/359 for AF but that's just a guess. I can't see them interested in the 358 or the 3510 at this stage, when their 77W fleets are so young. Will the GE engine availability on the 787 only have an influence here?
I await the result with much interest.

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29680 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5711 times:
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I expect if they order anything, it will be more 777-300ERs.

User currently offlinesxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5612 times:

Yes, I would expect an order at Paris Airshow. I know the decision process has taken forever, but I have no idea what they'll choose.

User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5309 times:

If they had chosen Boeing, surely it would have been announced by now?
Only Airbus store up their order announcements in the months prior to either Airshow. Afterall, both major airshows are European. The home team must always come out on top.

Unless of course the customer doing the ordering expresses the requirement of immediate announcement for whatever reason.



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User currently offlinembj2000 From Germany, joined Dec 2005, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5081 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 3):

Yeah, sure. Boeing never announces any orders during the show...  



Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
User currently offlinedanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1807 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4987 times:

Quoting mbj2000 (Reply 4):

I dont think thats what he ment. Obviously Boeing does announce orders at airshows, but in the case of Airbus they have been known to 'store up' major orders and announce them in one go at the big airshows.



Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4827 times:

Quoting danfearn77 (Reply 5):
I dont think thats what he ment. Obviously Boeing does announce orders at airshows, but in the case of Airbus they have been known to 'store up' major orders and announce them in one go at the big airshows.

Precisely what I meant.



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User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5885 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4580 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 6):
Precisely what I meant

Ih the customer wants to wait till an airshow, then Boeing waits.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4593 posts, RR: 38
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4499 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
I expect if they order anything, it will be more 777-300ERs.

I think that a really plausible option.

AF/KLM have stated repeatedly that they want guarantees on delivery slots/dates before they will order the B787 and/or the A350. Both programs are not that advanced yet that AF/KLM can be given these assurances. If they order anything else beside the B77W it might be a lease on more A330's.  .


User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4471 times:

Yes, if a customer wants to hold off, then either manufacturer with oblige.
Same can be said if the customer does not want to wait.

Traditionally speaking however, Airbus save up their announcements in the preceeding weeks/Months to be used to great affect at Airshows, while Boeing do not. Boeing have shareholders to inform. Airbus do not. Boeing therefore generally announce on the same day the deal is signed (Other thereabouts) unless the deal stipulates otherwise.



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User currently offlineLHR27C From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 1279 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4389 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 9):
Boeing have shareholders to inform. Airbus do not

Err, yes they do! Airbus is the largest division of EADS, listed on the Paris Stock Exchange, and the stock price can react strongly to Airbus order announcements.



Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
User currently offlinembj2000 From Germany, joined Dec 2005, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4367 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 6):
Quoting danfearn77 (Reply 5):
I dont think thats what he ment. Obviously Boeing does announce orders at airshows, but in the case of Airbus they have been known to 'store up' major orders and announce them in one go at the big airshows.

Precisely what I meant.

"Only Airbus store up their order announcements in the months prior to either Airshow."

Sorry it's useless now, you've already shown your bias...



Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
User currently offlineworldliner From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4299 times:

Its hard to say what they will order, or whether they will order both, one or neither.

Because both AF and KLM operate Airbus and Boeing aircraft simultaneously it will be difficult to choose. It depends on what new routes they are planning on operating in the future amongst other things. I think AF will want to order more 77W and A350, whereas KLM is more suited to the 787 imo, we will have to wait and see.



@777Worldliner
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9835 posts, RR: 96
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4233 times:
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Quoting garpd (Reply 9):
Boeing have shareholders to inform. Airbus do not

I wouldn't believe everything you read on A-net, to be honest.

Airbus, via EADS have every bit as much of an obligation to communicate to, and satisfy, shareholders, as Boeing do..

Rgds


User currently offlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 577 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3952 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 3):
If they had chosen Boeing, surely it would have been announced by now?

Boeing often books orders as "unidentified" to comply with public disclosure laws while also allowing a customer to announce at a time of its choosing. There are 10 unidentified 777s on Boeing's Orders website. Maybe these are for AF/KLM? The official line from Boeing is that the customer chooses when to announce. However, I often wonder if the Boeing marketing folk nudge their customers into waiting until the airshows.

With respect to Airbus "saving up" orders: there is also "backroom" deal-making at the airshows to finalize letters of intent and MOUs. I've read stories of intense negotiations going into the wee hours to finally ink a deal. Like him or not, John Leahy is legendary in this regard.

Also, Airbus seems to announce LOIs/MOUs with more fanfare than Boeing (or at least it is reported as such). In this sense, it is good marketing as Airbus can then announce the eventual Firm Order with even more celebration and have received twice the PR. Again, hat tip to Leahy and Co.



DaHjaj jaj QaQ Daghajjaj !!!!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29680 posts, RR: 84
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3919 times:
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Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 14):
However, I often wonder if the Boeing marketing folk nudge their customers into waiting until the airshows.

Boeing have formally stated (in the past) that they no longer ask customers to hold orders until the airshow, but that certainly doesn't stop the customer from choosing to wait.


User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3682 times:

Quoting mbj2000 (Reply 11):
Sorry it's useless now, you've already shown your bias...

I'm sorry, but, what?



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User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9564 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2170 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 16):
Quoting mbj2000 (Reply 11):
Sorry it's useless now, you've already shown your bias...

I'm sorry, but, what?

I also don't know what mbj2000 means by that. In any case it is not related to the topic.


Back to the thread, I see AF/KL go for more 77W's as well but maybe also a few more A333's for KL?

A388


User currently offlinegoblin211 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2133 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
I expect if they order anything, it will be more 777-300ERs.

Agreed. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they ordered a few more 380s. everything else needs to be further advanced before any orders will be made. When is the Paris Air show btw?



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