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Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?  
User currently offlinePlane holland From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 453 posts, RR: 0
Posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2748 times:

Having read the Delta dislikes thread, I'm very curious about the American point of view on all those older aircraft flying around.. for example the enormous fleet of 727's and several other which are very pollutant. I read, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it..." But I think they're broke in some way.. They're beatiful but doesn't take away the noise and pollution. When are they going to be replaced? After november you'll have to dig for the 727 in Europe.

rgds, A.

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOH-LZA From Finland, joined Jun 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2414 times:

Most American's (including G.W Bush) don't care about pollution, so as long as they can fly them safely it's no problem for them.

Save the TWFirst Volumes!

Zulu Alpha


User currently offlineB737-112 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 886 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2394 times:

The 727's have paid for themselves hundreds of times over and continue to serve faithfully. Every time they complete a route their original purchase is made more profitable. True, a new 737 or 757 has better seat mile cost and fewer pilots to pay but that's over a $30 million purchase and it takes many years to make the money back.

User currently offlineBoeing-Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

---Most American's (including G.W Bush) don't care about pollution, so as long as they can fly them safely it's no problem for them.---

Well that´s waht I call crap!!!!

That´s a typical prejudice. I bet there are many americans, who are interested in how to decrease the pollution.
Only because Mr. Bush doesn´t care about that it doesn´t mean that all americans have this attitude towards pollution.

And by the way what´s about russia and other countries. In a country where all the oldies are still flying too?

You just can´t say most americans or most russian as well as you can´t say most europeans.

But believe me the europeans are not really better. Here in Germany it´s often said that we will decrease the output of CO2 within five year about lets say 10% and after 4 years we hear that we won´t reach our goal.

So pollution is a very difficult topic, which we sould not abuse to fight another europe vs us war.

Daniel aka Boeing-Lover



User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2324 times:

Why does everyone gotta make this a democrat/republican thing?????

Why are you blaming Bush for 727s polluting???

Clinton had EIGHT years to do something about it and he DIDN'T!


User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 5, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2318 times:

Plane Holland,

727's are actually becoming a rare sight in the U.S. as they ARE being phased out. And with the economic slowdown, most airlines are retiring their 727's at an accelerated rate.

Now I don't like throwing stones, but Concorde is amongst the noisiest, fuel thirsty (therefore polluting) commercial aircraft in existance, yet is Europe planning on outlawing it, no (I personnally hope it flies soon).

OH-LZA,

You're quite young so you might not realize that the U.S. has been at the forefront of pollution control for decades (don't believe all the propaganda you read).

I remember back in the 70's till recently, when someone bought an expensive European car, the same car bought in Europe was always faster. Reason being when the car was exported to the US, the car had to have addition pollution control devices added to comply with strict US auto emmision laws. From my recollection, Europe didn't become serious about pollution until acid rain from their antiquited.
powerplants started killing their forests.



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineParra From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2274 times:

FACT

76% of Americans agree that global warming is a problem to worry about, while 67% believe that President Bush should work towards implementing the Kyoto Protocol.


User currently offlineGregg From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 327 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2256 times:

Old a/c in the US? How much polution does production of a new a/c cause? If an old 727 is still safe, and it has been upgraded to Stage III noise compliance, lets fly it.

User currently offlineCV640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2242 times:

The 727 is being replaced by most carriers, within 5 year sthere will be very few left in passenger service. The reason it has taken longer in the US is that we have bigger fleets. It is a lot more expensive to replace 150-200 aircraft then 50 or less 727s that most Eurpoean carriers operated. Plus, if you look most European carriers are in deire financial trouble, besides high labor cost another is that they are constatntly replacing their fleets.

User currently offlineGalaxy5 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2034 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2216 times:

why replace a perfectly good airframe. thats whats wrong with alot of people in here ( from what ive noticed ) if its not brand new then its no good. geez the 727 is one of the cheapest planes to operate since most are paid off and they are so easy to maintain and operate why replace then. even if you put new engines and avionics in them the airframe would still be cheaper than newer aircraft and serve many years to come.


"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
User currently offlineLOT767-300ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2196 times:

FDXmech-Excuse me I see more 727 here than any other type landing at O'Hare! We have UAL which has a huge amount of them, NWA flies them here, Ryan Int'l on behalf of the USPS flies them. Planet flies them occasionally here. I do however agree ORD is an exception to the rule and that other airports don't see much 727 traffic as much as ORD probably

LOT767-300ER
http://www.geocities.com/lot767/index.html


User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2167 times:

So we're the bad guys because of a few 727's?


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Charles Falk



Here's just one of many ex-Soviet types trapsing through the pure clean air of Europe, this one in Geneva three weeks ago. I guarantee you that a 727 on a bad day doesn't cook out as much gunk as this crate.

Why aren't Europeans(most of whom are in countries who have yet to sign the Kyoto Treaty) cracking down on smokers like these?


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4328 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

The Il-76s actually ARE banned from most European airports now. I guess an exception has been made for above aircraft because it's a government or relief or UN flight (reading it's Geneva makes that more probable).
There's a good point in the remark making a new plane and scrapping an old one costs lots of energy too.
And I keep track of the US fleet of 727s and it's dwindling quite fast. Delta parks 3 or 4 727s a months, American 2 and United will also start to withdrawn 2 every month. And Continental, TWA, Alaska and US Airways already stopped flying it some time ago.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2152 times:

Certain people on this forum just love to go around trying to incite Airbus vs. Boeing and/or Europe vs. America flame wars. In the future, we should all ignore them and let the thread die.

Since we're on the topic.....

Palma de Mallorca (- Son San Juan) (PMI / LEPA / LESJ)
Spain, June 2001
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Photo © Toni Marimon



Oporto (- Francisco sa Carneiro) (OPO / LPPR)
Portugal, June 2001
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Photo © Luis Goncalves



Edinburgh - Turnhouse (EDI / EGPH)
UK - Scotland, July 2, 2001
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Photo © Colin Abbott



Zurich (- Kloten) (ZRH / LSZH)
Switzerland, June 13, 2001
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Photo © Peter Unmuth



Zurich (- Kloten) (ZRH / LSZH)
Switzerland, June 8, 2001
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Photo © Peter Unmuth



Hannover (HAJ)
Germany, June 6, 2001
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Photo © MR



Vienna - Schwechat (VIE)
Austria, June 17, 2001
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Photo © Dietmar Schreiber



Berlin - Tegel (TXL / EDDT)
Germany, October 2000
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Photo © Thomas Noack



Palma de Mallorca (- Son San Juan) (PMI / LEPA / LESJ)
Spain, June 8, 2001
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Photo © Toni Marimon



London - Gatwick (LGW / EGKK)
UK - England, June 3, 2001
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Photo © Garry Lewis



Amsterdam - Schiphol (AMS / EHAM)
Netherlands, May 2, 2001
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Photo © George Polfliet




"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

Some 727 projections (from AWAST Sourcebook).

Year End Fleet........ 1998..........2002
********************************
American Airlines.........77............10
United Airlines............75.............55
Delta Airlines.............130............62
Northwest Airlines.......38.............12
Continental Airlines..............0..........
TWA.................................0..........

These projections were prior to announced accelerated retirements.



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineIl-96lover From Germany, joined May 2001, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2125 times:

Of course you can sometimes see very old birds in europe too.

Correct me if i´m wrong, but as far as I know the avarage fleet age of the european majors (KL, AF, LH, BA, SR ... )is much younger than of the US-majors
The same for the charter-carriers.

I don´t want to start an America vs Europe war, but i´d like to know the reasons for this.

One reason might be that european passengers just don´t feel safe in an old jet. They think a 25 year old car is crap, so must be a 25 year old plane.


User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1278 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2123 times:

One other reason is the fact that US carriers must be self supporting. This only recently became a reality in Europe and even now govenments continue to pour money into many failing carriers. Over here you make money or die, therefore you dont spend $30-50 million to replace a perfectly good, PAID FOR aircraft with a new model that does the same thing.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2107 times:

A couple of other points, at this point, most 727-200 aircraft have been fitted with Stage 3 hush-kits to help make these older aircraft more envoirnmentally friendly - not a total answer, but it helps. Also, there were a huge number of 727s in the US fleets at one time and it just takes time and lots of money to replace all of these aircraft. Several airlines (ie, CO) have already retired their 727s, NW is close to completing its 727s replacement program (true, it still has its DC9s to think about), and AA, UA, DL have huge outstanding orders for new generation 737s and A320 series airliners intended to replace the 727s. Also, dont forget, the larger airliners expanded greatly in recent years, and thus many kept 727s in their fleets longer than initially planned, while accepting new planes, to keep this expansion going. With the world economy slowing down, economics may accelerate 727 retirement, UA and others have recently announced that they will ground several of these planes more quickly than originally planned.

User currently offlineGalaxy5 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2034 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2103 times:

dont worry though many 727s will go toward cargo ops since they are so cheap and reliable and with them being phased out of the large companies there will be plenty of 727s to be picked up by smaller operators


"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
User currently offlineIl-96lover From Germany, joined May 2001, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2103 times:

No, it´s not that easy!

Swissair for example has always been self supporting, but has an a very modern fleet.

Or have look at the fleet age of the following german charter carriers, wich have always been self supporting too:

Airline: years:

LTU 6.5
Aero Lloyd 2
Air Berlin 2
Condor 4.5
Hapag Lloyd 4
Germania 3
Sun Express 1 (!)

I found it on www.focus.de

So there must be any other reasons!


User currently offlinePhilly phlyer From United States of America, joined May 1999, 317 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2084 times:

Il-96lover:

Sorry, but it is that easy. This is a case of pure economics and fleet size.

First I will address the economics. Commercial domestic US aviation has been de-controlled and open to competition since the 1970s and US domestic airlines have to trim costs to compete (among other things). Those that don't, do not survive. You cannot compare airlines competing in the domestic US industry to airlines that predominantly fly international routes (Swissair) with more controls and higher revenue per seat mile to cover the higher cost of flying newer fleets.

Second, as many previous posters have pointed out, it takes a lot longer to introduce new aircraft and train the crews if you are replacing 200 instead of 50 aircraft.


User currently offlineTravaz From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2063 times:

When at LHR in Feb it was a beautiful sight (and Sound) to see the regular sked TU 134 "Smoke" on out toward the Balkins. The oldest US owned plane I saw was a 767 from UA. Hmmmm

Happy Flying
 Smile


User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4627 posts, RR: 36
Reply 22, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

As a Canadian, I think I have a fairly un-biased opinion here.

I must say I agree with the Americans. If there's one thing the U.S. can show the rest of the world is how to make the most of what you got to maximize profit and company efficiency. How do you think they became the most economically powerful country in the world? Also American companies get no help from their government, unlike alot of companies in other countries.

I don't understand why so many europeans in this forum are constantly throwing flak at the U.S. about the environment. Like they're the only country in the world that pollutes anything. The U.S. is one of the most modern countries in the world. I'm not just talking planes here, cars, factorys, etc. How come I don't see any posts about India or other countries with HUGE populations and sub-standard conditions. You can't tell me that the U.S. pollutes more than they do! Europe isn't exactly the garden of eden either. Is London any cleaner than any American city?

Lately there's been alot of America/Boeing bashing by some europeans and others, I hate to say it but even some of my fellow canadians have jumped on the "bash the U.S." bandwagon and I'm getting tired of it.

Regards,

Kris



Word
User currently offlineAirlinelover From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5580 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

NWA is phasing out the 727's with A320's (I hear) and I heard that the 727 will be phased out of the US commercial fleet by 2005..Correct me if I'm wrong.

Chris



Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
User currently offlinePlane holland From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (13 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2000 times:

Interesting comments.. Some people see this as an attack to the US. It's not.. I'm only asking your point of view . I'm not stating Europe is better..  Smile . We (Amsterdam) are banning some airlines and aircraft. The Balkan Tupolev would get fined or land at a high price. For example, the DC10 will be phased out of AMS. EU countries are to quickly phase out older aircraft, so there won't be many anymore in a while. (OA, IB). Aeroflot has given good example by using Boeing 777 and 737 on European routes. But thats's mainly because Europe charges higher prices for old aircraft. I think it's the country's responsiblity to make sure more environmentally friendly aircraft will be used and also in Europe some country's have to learn.

rgds. A.


25 Catflap : It is my understanding that the US undermined legislation to rid the skies of old crates by extensive use of hush-kits. As I understand it, hush-kits
26 Cfalk : Catflap, You seem to be flapping your mouth again. 80%??? Where did you hear that one. Hush-kits are a way to extend the life of a productive asset fo
27 Heavymetal : It makes simply no sense to demand the grounding of older less fuel efficient jets simply because the whims of the Greens demand it. Look at it this w
28 Flight152 : Catflap- Your numbers are extremly flawed! 80%- where did you get that from your as*? Hush kits reduce noise therefore reduce noise pollution. Let me
29 Jtb106 : Fab 4, I completely agree with what you, Cfalk, and Heavymetal, are saying, but you lose credibility when you end your post as you did. Even though th
30 747-451 : Like they care in "Europe" about pollution: Europe took longer than anywhere else to install emission controls on cars trucks etc. (Japan has had emit
31 747-451 : Perhaps because if let's say Delta has 150+ 727's to dispose of and let's say Air France (which dumped theirs long ago) has 30 who can dump them faste
32 CV640 : Yes the US has a lot of polluted sites, but we also have some of the cleanest natural preserves in the world. We aren't going forward with Koyto, but
33 WN boy : 80%--it is one thing to use statistics out of context, it is quite another to just make them up. And with Flap shooting off his "80%," it is pretty cl
34 Teej13 : So the Europe vs US battle continues... A couple of thoughts: - I think the Americans are doing well with what they've got on this one. The 727s are o
35 Heavymetal : To our European friends, - The Supermarine Spitfire may have , along with the brave men who flew it the summer of 1940, it could be argued saved not j
36 Superfly : Teej13: >- For crying out loud, Russia is not in Europe! The EU represents a finite number of countries. Pick up you nearest atlas and tell us what co
37 Flight152 : Superfly- How can you call yourself a true aviation fan if you don't like jet noise? It is not that we do not like it, but jet noise harms the envirom
38 KUGN : Flight142, well I'm sorry to say this but if you think this way you are in wrong hobby. Perheps you should try balooning. Does ever concern for the ec
39 Teej13 : The remarks on borders were political and economic, not directly geographical. When views from "Europe" appear in this discussion page, they tend to r
40 KUGN : I beg to differ Teej13. When someone says Europe, I think of Europe as a whole, Western and Eastern; Russia is separate case. When someone says EU, th
41 Trintocan : A very interesting topic, those discussions from both sides are great. Keep it rolling! As for why (Western) European fleets are generally newer than
42 Nwa747-400 : Airlinelover (chris): Actually NW 727s should be gone by early 2003 at the latest. They are down to less than 30 now I believe. Sad to see them do as
43 Catflap : Wow, what a thread. I would like to apologise unreservedly for making up the figure of 80%. It clearly stung a number of you into action to defend you
44 KUGN : Catflap, you still don't think avout economics; read Trintocan's post again, and then you'll see the reasoning behind huskits. Its impossible to ban a
45 Catflap : As far as I understand it the proposals for Stage 4 compliance will only apply to new aircraft. There will be no phase-out comparable to the chapter 2
46 Cfalk : >They'll keep flying until they break or until someone legislates to ground them. I'm surprised that the aircraft manufacturers aren't pushing for a p
47 RayChuang : Let's face it folks. The US airline industry will be buying a substantial amount of new planes by 2010 for these reasons: 1. The new planes will only
48 Flight152 : KUGN- You loose your credibilty when you tell someone to change hobbies, expically if they are active in this website! I was answering Superfly's ques
49 Flight152 : KUGN- You loose your credibilty when you tell someone to change hobbies, expically if they are active in this website! I was answering Superfly's ques
50 KUGN : Well, you answered in form of another question, so it was perfectly fine for me to make a comment and further discussion. My credibility on the side,
51 Post contains links and images Superfly : Wow, what a mess this has turned into! Flight152: I have heard the term noise pollution! I hear it everyday and is an issue that us Urban Planners hav
52 Captaink : in my opinion the 727 are great aircraft.. They fly great.. they seem to be in great condition, they are safe.. they are cheap to operate and they are
53 Heavymetal : Re: Jet Noise On spotting days or at airshows, bring it on. Otherwise... I grew up in the quiet woods around TVC...late 70s/early 80s those 6 am North
54 747-451 : Please! The actions of foreign visitors and dignitaries in the US is appalling too! eg: In NY, "diplomats" owe millions of dollars in parking tickets,
55 747-451 : Everyone makes a big deal about noise.....I'll take a 727, no make that a 707-100 with water injection any day over a freakin' "boom car", rice rocket
56 D L X : In an effort to get this thread archived, I would like to point out one thing. Europeans smoke cigarettes at a MUCH MUCH higher rate than Americans, w
57 Teej13 : Superfly, Fantastic picture of the 707 there - totally brings all of this discussion into perspective. Almost as good as some of the short final pics
58 Prebennorholm : This thread has been quite boring. But one fault must be corrected: 747-451 wrote: BTW, the Estonian waitress can cash "the old mighty dollar" in on t
59 EWRvirgin : Since we're all throwing around so many generalizations let me add my own...Why are so many Brits seemingly xenophobic? And by the way, how much do yo
60 Post contains images KMIA : I agree completely with your comments, good job
61 Rlwynn : It seems like our European friends should remember that NONE of them would even ever have been born if it was not For the US saving their asses in two
62 Teej13 : Honestly! It's comments like that that turn threads like this into a Europe vs U.S. war or words. Is that really how Americans look at the world? As a
63 Hepkat : Wow, what a great thread! Why should we hurry to get it archived? I'm learning TONS from all this. Now, seriously, as an American living in Vienna, I
64 P&M : Why are so many americans on this board so thin-skinned ? Only a few stick to the original topic and bring up arguments which are related to it. What
65 KUGN : If you take a carefull look at the topic, you'll notice we were talking about aircrafts until Parra brought issue of (some!) american tourists being a
66 B744F : 747-451 BTW, the Estonian waitress can cash "the old mighty dollar" in on the black market for alot more "kroons" than she would get at any legitmate
67 B744F : Rlwynn, It seems like our European friends should remember that NONE of them would even ever have been born if it was not For the US saving their asse
68 Catflap : The reason that our American friends don't want to debate the issue is that in answer to the question, they are doing nothing to get rid of old aircra
69 Flight152 : Catflap- The reason that our American friends don't want to debate the issue is that in answer to the question, they are doing nothing to get rid of o
70 D L X : What?! This thread is still around? I guess our moderators don't mind this sort of trash... Catflap flapped:"The reason that our American friends don'
71 Teej13 : Boeing makes so much money off of the military contracts with the U.S. Govt that it can be construed as a subsidy. I'm not saying it is, just playing
72 Teej13 : I think Europe vs U.S. should be banned like A v B
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