Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
BEA: Total Data Extraction From AF447 Boxes - Part 3  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 39014 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

This is a continuation thread of part 2, which can be found here: BEA: Total Data Extraction From AF447 Boxes - Part 2

Feel free to join the discussion should you wish to do so, posting within the parameters of the forum rules.

Thank you,

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
305 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1988 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 39141 times:

The BEA announced to release first information from the black box recordings on May 27th in the afternoon (local time, approx. 11:00Z to 16:00Z). The Aviation Herald is going to report as soon as this information becomes available.


Source :

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1/0053&opt=0

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4629 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 39006 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 267):
Hear ! Hear !

?
Not sure about your point here.
My response is directly to NAV's point that it is the "least" likely cause. When it is in fact not the least likely cause. It is a highly contributing factor, if not the the sole factor in a matter of incidents that is not trivial.

//reposted due to being after the mod's closure message.

[Edited 2011-05-25 11:20:50]


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 38897 times:

Thanks Gonzalo, I had not seen that debris field diagram before.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 38857 times:

Quoting Navigator (Reply 270):
The captain of a flight always has to be on the flight deck if anything hazardous is expected like extreme weather conditions. He can always rest when operation is considered to be normal.This is common practice in all airlines.

I've never heard of such a policy - do you have anything to support that?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1988 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 38696 times:

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 3):
Thanks Gonzalo, I had not seen that debris field diagram before.

You're Welcome !!  

Just in case, If you scroll down the same link there is a lot of more valuable information ( and reliable since it is extracted from the BEA ). There are pictures, diagrams of the recovered parts of the aircraft, and even the ACARS messages are explained.

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4462 posts, RR: 76
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 38537 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):

Not sure about your point here.

a response to David's post.
For some reason, my answer to your post was italic-ised as yours too.
Sorry. I agree with what you said, of course.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 1):
The BEA announced to release first information from the black box recordings on May 27th in the afternoon

This is the official BEA press release :
"25 May 2011 briefing

The BEA has decided to publish a note with information on the first facts established, based on analysis of the data from the flight recorders. This note will be put on line on Friday 27 May at the beginning of the afternoon and will be available in English, French, German and Portuguese. There will be no press briefing.
"

Important words : " note ; information ; facts established ; based on analysis.
Those awaiting a conclusion, beware : Not this time yet.



Contrail designer
User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4462 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 38425 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Excerpt-s of EU-OPS 1-1090 and foll regarding crew rest in flight and applied to AF447 / 01.06/2009 :
"Flight crew members rest on board :

On Airbus A330-203 type aircraft operated by Air France, a rest station intended for the flight crew is installed behind the cockpit. It includes two bunks.
The reinforcement crew members are present in the cockpit and actively monitor the flight from the departure briefing to FL200 and from the arrival briefing to the gate.
Outside of these flight phases, each member of the flight crew must be able to rest for at least an hour and a half continuously during the flight duty time.
The captain sets the procedures for each member of the crew taking their rest.
The Air France procedures stipulate that before any prolonged absence from the cockpit, the captain indicates the new allocation of tasks. He names the pilot who replaces him. He specifies the conditions that would necessitate his
return to the cockpit.
Note: the ratings of the flight crew members on the accident flight meant that during the captain’s rest the substitute fi rst officer had to be the one of the two who held an ATPL.
The licences and ratings of crews do not appear in flight dossiers"


I think those procedures are clear enough.



Contrail designer
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days ago) and read 38310 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 6):
Important words : " note ; information ; facts established ; based on analysis.
Those awaiting a conclusion, beware : Not this time yet.

I would expect them to address some basic information they were able to glean from the FDR/CVR that has been speculated on here, like who was present on the flight deck when the ACARS faults began being transmitted and possibly if a stall occurred.

Pihero, if I remember right they are able to plug the data recorded on the FDR into some kind of Aircraft Data Recovery and Analysis Software to recreate the flight? I believe the output looks something similar to this:




The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinechristopherwoo From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 37673 times:

Hey Tom

Thanks for your reply! Quick question though, Why does the PF not use the airspeed reference to get out of a stall, surely the pitch indicator only displays the relative nose attitude of the plane...? Does not really help knowing when the aircraft has sufficient lift to fly again and therefore a cue to start raising the nose?

Chris


User currently offlinepilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 37515 times:

Quoting christopherwoo (Reply 9):

Airspeed can be misleading, because you can stall at ANY speed



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 37471 times:

Quoting christopherwoo (Reply 9):
Why does the PF not use the airspeed reference to get out of a stall,

It's not instantaneous enough. It will take a few seconds for the airspeed to build to a point where the wing is capable of getting back to level flight again, and if you're pitching the nose down throughout that time, you'll end up in a very nose-low attitude and end up losing significantly more altitude during the recovery than necessary. In the effort to arrest such an altitude loss and return to level flight, you may end up stalling the aircraft again.

Thus, the best technique for stall recovery is to set a certain pitch attitude (the instruments for which are instantaneous) and wait for the airspeed to build to the point where you can regain whatever altitude was lost. If the stall persists, obviously you'll lower the nose further, but this shouldn't be necessary in most stall scenarios.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinepilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 37251 times:

What MIR is describing is for a typical low speed stall where you've probably got a high angle of attack and low airspeed

however there are several other types of stalls, you can be stalled at a much higher speed while performing a steep turn at level altitude, in which case releasing back pressure on the stick or coming out of the bank would reduce the AOA and keep the speed roughly the same

working through a stall is part feeling part indication, that's how i always taught it to my students...rote memorization can save you but it can also kill you if applied in the wrong phase or type of stall



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 942 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 37137 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

At higher altitudes, the difference between an aerodynamic stall and Vne (never exceed speed) can be very slight.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 37022 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 13):
At higher altitudes, the difference between an aerodynamic stall and Vne (never exceed speed) can be very slight.

The effects, perhaps, but there is still going to be a wide margin between stall speed and Mmo.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineRalphski From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 36786 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 13):
At higher altitudes, the difference between an aerodynamic stall and Vne (never exceed speed) can be very slight.

But how often do typical airliners fly at altitudes where this is the case? Is it a concern at 35,000 ft?


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 36613 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
and even the ACARS messages are explained.

Many thanks, Gonzalo - what's more, the explanations are the clearest that I've seen yet. The ones of particular interest (from the viewpoint of any possible 'pilot error') appear to be:-

"- FLAG ON CAPT PFD SPD LIM and FLAG ON F/O PFD SPD LIM: characteristic speeds (green dot, VLS, ...) lost due to loss of calculating function

"- FLAG ON CAPT PFD FD and FLAG ON F/O PFD FD: flight director bars have been removed from primary flight displays

"- FLAG ON CAPT PFD FPV and FLAG ON F/O PFD FPV: flight path vector displays removed from the primary flight displays, red flags shown instead"


So the key elements of the primary flight displays on both sides of the cockpit appear to have packed in completely? Hardly a good start to any attempts at 'flying pitch and power'?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13116 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 36277 times:

In this (and the previous parts of this) thread have raised questions as to if modern computers may cause more problems overloading the pilots with information or not sorting it out fast enough or causing problems in their operations inadvertantly as could be factors in the AF447 crash.

My question is this: could the improvements in aircraft technology have led to thinking one can go through any storm, pushing the aircrafts' limits, especially if you don't have accurate weather info? What I am saying is that in the past, limits on technololgy meant having greater margins for weather conditons, less playing to the edge or over it. As to AF447, could it's technology led to overconfidence to be able to traveling into a weather that was more severe that normal as didn't know enough of how bad it was.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9109 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 36267 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):

So the key elements of the primary flight displays on both sides of the cockpit appear to have packed in completely? Hardly a good start to any attempts at 'flying pitch and power'?

It is very frustrating when I read comments like this, it is just sensationalism devoid of the facts.

The flags appearing on the PFD do not impact on the display of attitude information, the 3 flags that are in the above messages are numbers 4, 5, and 8 in the diagram below. The FD flags normally appear when they have been turned off by the crew.




We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1988 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 36234 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):
Hardly a good start to any attempts at 'flying pitch and power'?

Why ? The FPV is a very good tool but in case of emergency you still have the HSI and the engine power setting available.
( I know, is very easy to say that here, in the comfort of my house, with a calm environment, in a very different situation compared with the overwhelming cascade of chimes and signals they probably faced ).

I'm counting the hours for the BEA note... although like Pihero said, we can not expect nothing conclusive, but at least I hope we finally can have some first hand information from the investigators.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 35983 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 17):
My question is this: could the improvements in aircraft technology have led to thinking one can go through any storm, pushing the aircrafts' limits, especially if you don't have accurate weather info?

Only press stories so far, ltbewr, but recent indications are that the pilots did in fact do their best to go round the storms. I expect the professionals on here, in any case, will shortly confirm that no pilots will ever fly through a storm if they can avoid it (any more than the Wright Brothers would have  ).

Further down in the excellent link provided by Gonzalo, I discover that there's a good 'plain English' translation of the ACARS messages:-

02:10Z: Autothrust off
Autopilot off
FBW alternate law
Rudder Travel Limiter Fault
TCAS fault due to antenna fault
Flight Envelope Computation warning
All pitot static ports lost
02:11Z: Failure of all three ADIRUs
Failure of gyros of ISIS (attitude information lost)
02:12Z: ADIRUs Air Data disagree
02:13Z: Flight Management, Guidance and Envelope Computer fault
PRIM 1 fault
SEC 1 fault
02:14Z: Cabin Pressure Controller fault (cabin vertical speed)


Two things rather 'leap out at me' from those, which haven't received a lot of attention up to now. The first is "All pitot static ports lost" - the altimeter works off the air pressures supplied by the static ports, if they froze up as well the pilots may not have known their altitude, OR whether they were climbing or descending. The second is "Failure of gyros of ISIS (attitude information lost)" - 'ISIS' means the backup instruments, and as someone mentioned earlier, those include an 'artificial horizon' driven not by computers but by 'old-fashioned' gyroscopes. But those too (possibly the last resort for the pilots in trying to re-establish level flight) appear to have stopped working.........

My first reaction to this 'new news,' I'm afraid, is running along the lines of "Pilot error my FOOT.......!"

[Edited 2011-05-25 20:49:26]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 35876 times:

Sorry Zeke, spoke in haste. But please bear in mind that the ACARS messages are saved and sent in 'batches' (and not necessarily in the order that they were generated); so there may have been (probably WERE) yet more instrument shutdowns that didn't get sent (but will hopefully be available from the FDR)?


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 35752 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 19):
'm counting the hours for the BEA note... although like Pihero said, we can not expect nothing conclusive, but at least I hope we finally can have some first hand information from the investigators.

Me too. Hopefully the Signal to Noise Ratio on this thread will go up a few db when that happens.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9109 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 35511 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):

These messages have been discussed to death, and fully explained by the BEA in their report.

This is adding nothing to the discussion.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
Further down in the excellent link provided by Gonzalo, I discover that there's a good 'plain English' translation of the ACARS messages:-

What makes it an excellent link ?

The BEA has gone though all the messages, ant they have given very detailed account of what each messages means, naturally the investigators words are not as sensational as yours, as they include all the facts available in the correct context.

http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...90601e1.en/pdf/f-cp090601e1.en.pdf
http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...90601e2.en/pdf/f-cp090601e2.en.pdf

The list you have linked is not what was transmitted by the aircraft, or reported by the BEA. From memory this was from an AirInsight interview with an A320 pilot in the US take on what he saw in the press reports shortly after the accident. We now have the actual messages, and factual explanation of them contained in the BEA report.

The BEA report also have the 3 red flags in the PFD overlaid as well.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 21):
But please bear in mind that the ACARS messages are saved and sent in 'batches' (and not necessarily in the order that they were generated); so there may have been (probably WERE) yet more instrument shutdowns that didn't get sent (but will hopefully be available from the FDR)?

I am well aware of that, I posed that information a couple of years ago on here.

Nothing suggests that any of the instruments shut down, again this is an invalid conclusion.

From now on, could you please search through the BEA report for any questions you have, if they are not answered in there, then ask them. Everything you have posted on this thread has been already covered by the BEA in great detail.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 35483 times:

"Air France reported, that they had received an automatic message from the airplane reporting an electrical short circuit and the failure of multiple systems at 02:14Z"

"Sources within Air France reported, that the automatic message did not only report an electrical short circuit, but also the loss of cabin pressure. This information has been confirmed by FAB, who also stated, that the position of the airplane was given as N3.5777 W30.3744 in that message."

Those are from Gonzalo's link. Anyone heard any other word on this electrical short?


25 boacvc10 : If I may ask, BEA is reported to have written in their preliminary report: Does this mean, they realized (in 2009) the approximate terminal flight pat
26 zeke : Both of the comments are incorrect, nothing was received that suggest a short circuit, and nothing was received to suggest loss of cabin pressure.
27 astuteman : Fortunately, we're all abundantly aware that this would conform to your own particular personal agenda perfectly. A place where you've been "directin
28 LTC8K6 : Yes, I knew the cabin pressure one was an inaccurate description of the actual ACARS message. Just wondered about the electrical short one. Going to
29 tdscanuck : As previously posted, you can stall at any airspeed. What you really want to fly in recovery is the AOA limit, which is information you get from the
30 NAV20 : Well, tdscanuck, in fairness, bearing in mind the icing-up (which is not in dispute), we already 'know' that the first two readings will have been 'u
31 giopan1975 : It will not include anything conclusive, but hopefully allow people with knowledge draw safe conclusions.
32 YULWinterSkies : I am neither airplane pilot nor aircraft engineer, therefore something strikes me when reading those ACARS messages. If I understand well the most up
33 NAV20 : Not quite, YULWnterSkies. You're right about the weather, the icing, and the speed reading. But the aeroplane first of all pitched sharply UP, not do
34 zeke : That list of ACARS messages is not correct, you will need to go to the BEA report to get the correct list, and the meaning of the messages.
35 Pihero : This is what I was afraid could happen to the thread. Bedlam and chaos as some are back to an old agenda, some get fallacious / false / erroneous gen
36 tdscanuck : No, we don't. We "know" that we got ACARS messages about airspeed, which strongly suggests that airspeed may have been invalid. We have nothing about
37 LTC8K6 : Is there agreement that there were likely more ACARS messages that did not have a chance to be sent? If so, is it probable that we will hear about the
38 Pihero : A totally idiotic question from me : Why do we care about unsent / delayed / absent... ACARS messages when we have the DFDR / QAR / CVR recordings at
39 ULMFlyer : I honestly have no idea how you guys (plus Mir, pilotaydin) have the patience to put up with the (recycled) BS in this thread. Still, I can't thank y
40 Baroque : Thanks to those who are informed for their (informed) posts such as Zeke, Tom, Pihero and Pilotaydin and others who know. They have been extraordinar
41 zeke : ACARS messages appear when the aircraft central maintenace system senses an anomaly, it does not report back if the anomaly disappears. Modern aircra
42 cc2314 : Have they taken any photos of the aircraft below water,has there been any indications the aircraft might have collided with something? From start to f
43 Post contains images comorin : I completely agree. I feel like I am at a bar with some top class aviators and am grateful I can ask a question here and there; but really I'm just t
44 Mir : Because we (as in the general public) actually don't have those recordings at our disposal (yet), and the desire for speculation leads one to latch o
45 Post contains links bueb0g : Did you miss it when they released all the pictures...? And no, there was definitly no collision... in fact, it's even stated within this thread that
46 LTC8K6 : I was actually just speculatiing on what we might learn from the coming briefing without a full FDR/CVR report. I'm aware of what ACARS is and that it
47 cc2314 : Thanks for the link to the pictures. Thought came to mind,what if the aircraft flew into a flock of geese.Would they damage the pitot/aoa and engines
48 carbon787 : there's nothing wrong with thinking outside the box, however, I do not think that geese would fly at, what, 35000'??
49 LTC8K6 : The location of the pitot tubes would seem to make a clog by goose guts pretty unlikely even if they hit a flock. A whole flock. At 35,000 feet. In th
50 cc2314 : Bar headed geese fly over the Himalayan mountains.But 35k might be a bit far fetched
51 YULWinterSkies : It's fine to think outside the box, but in case you wonder, there are no geese cruising at 35,000 ft. Chances of this happening are basically zero, b
52 canoecarrier : Mir beat me too it. Which is why I'm trying to patiently wait for more information to be released tomorrow based on the DFDR/CVR recordings rather th
53 David L : It might not be a full report but it's probably safe to say the briefing will be based on based on the FDR/CVR data rather than ACARS messages. As Ze
54 Trin : Are you serious? Of course it's not possible!! ..Trin..
55 dragon6172 : I do not think geese typically migrate across the ocean at 35k feet. Thinking outside the box is fine... just stay near the edges of the box. Unless
56 fca767 : But thinking even more outside of the box, and maybe he meant geese hit the pitots on takeoff...but then maybe they would know it at that point.
57 LTC8K6 : Yes, we've already established that ACARS messages are not important once you have the FDR/CVR. Many times over. I'm certainly not arguing that point
58 canoecarrier : The highest any birds have ever been observed flying are some swans and geese at 30K feet but that's because they have to cross the Himalayas. Most m
59 pilotaydin : Hello, I have just crossed an ocean to find many new posts Hello to Zeke and Pihero who are keeping the thread sane and alive... We are basically goin
60 Post contains images Pihero : Thank you. What is not widely understood is that safety is our collective reponsibility. All of us. If there's an accident, the collectivity should b
61 Mir : Probably, but they will be a very unimportant part of the investigation, since they don't contribute to the crash in any way. They were basically the
62 dragon6172 : From the BEA Interim report #2, page 41, para 3: "No message present in the CFR indicates the loss of displays or of inertial information (attitudes)
63 LIFFY1A : Apologies for being totally off topic, and this may be a very stupid question, but would geese not become hypoxic at 30,000ft?
64 Post contains links canoecarrier : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar-headed_Goose
65 spacecadet : Not sure what you mean by this? Are you saying none of the important safety improvements made over the years came about as the result of open acciden
66 Mir : Evolution can compensate for a lot of stuff. -Mir
67 JoeCanuck : Well done. Which is why NTSB, evidence given during an investigation cannot be used to convict a witness. The truth is more important than blame. (Ot
68 Post contains links comorin : Another great link to these amazing birds: http://audubonmagazine.org/birds/birds0011.html
69 rfields5421 : While no cases of geese at 35K have been documented, they have flown too close to that altitude to rule it out completely. However, the location of t
70 ComeAndGo : Yes, but didn't we establish the engines were spinning at impact?
71 rfields5421 : I fully understand and agree. We have become so focused on blaming one individual, one thing for everything 'bad' which happens - that people want to
72 CylonCat : Probably spinning. Or maybe that's too strong, for now. The last ACARS message about cabin pressurization suggests that the aircraft still had power b
73 canoecarrier : Completely? No, but then if the ACARS messages were telling us things like how the autopilot disconnected wouldn't the messages also have included so
74 rfields5421 : In my opinion, bird strike is completely out of consideration as a reason for this crash. I was just saying that mother nature over and over shows us
75 Mir : I haven't heard anything to say that they weren't, but that doesn't necessarily mean they weren't. Also, just to be technical about things, there is
76 Post contains images flood : At this point in the investigation, I'm a little puzzled about newly emerging theories (and somewhat radical ones at that) such as a collision or bird
77 canoecarrier : No doubt, fish have actually fallen from the sky during a tornado, but I'm fairly certain birds weren't the cause of this. Thanks! I'll probably wake
78 Post contains images flood : Yeah, and all the posts claiming conspiracy and cover-up, people disappointed with the limited amount of information released, people complaining due
79 rfields5421 : Undoubtedly, all the wild theories we went over two years ago will come up again, along with more conspiracy BS. At least you have a better more sati
80 flood : Sorry to hear that and wish you all the best. I don't believe there will be any additional announcements from the BEA though, according to their webs
81 tdscanuck : They'd know. A plugged pitot (or plugged static port) presents itself very quickly if you're changing either speed or altitude, which you are near ta
82 canoecarrier : You trump me my friend. I'll use the normal excuse that I'm 9 hours behind Paris and wait patiently, mostly because I'll just be asleep. Nonsense. Ca
83 zeke : The air data system is continuously monitored, it would pick up any fault in the pilot, static, or TAT in under a second, before any pilot could noti
84 canoecarrier : I was going to edit my post before Zeke posted, just to say that although there is an air of levity in my post, I really think this could be a watersh
85 JoeCanuck : I know and you know and most in here know but John Q. still has problems with the concept. It's still magic to most. One might logically think it wou
86 comorin : dear God, after tomorrow we're going to have to get a life...hopefully there will be some wiggle room; I was just starting to get into the Bar-Headed
87 canoecarrier : Since we're killing time. I remember as a Customer Service Supervisor waiting 5 hours for maintenance to show up after a bird strike at 2 am in the m
88 ComeAndGo : Yes, it's called pilot error.
89 Mastropiero : Wow. So many insightful posts by extremely knowledgeable people that I´ve read over the last two years.... all this time wasted when I could have ju
90 Post contains images NAV20 : Meaning pilots, I take it, Pihero? If so, I entirely agree. Ouch! Sorry to hear it mate, I had one a few years ago - and the surgeon said it was 'pos
91 Post contains links Chamonix : Latest: http://lci.tf1.fr/france/faits-diver...-aurait-dit-un-pilote-6507941.html
92 Post contains links Chamonix : Leak from investigating magistrates http://www.scribd.com/doc/56400906/rapport-d-expertise-Rio-Paris
93 Post contains images NAV20 : "descendait vers la mer à une vitesse vertigineuse", "l'équipage a appliqué une procédure issue de sa formation, classique mais inadaptée et inef
94 Aesma : I don't really see the BEA write something like that, usually they use more technical wording. So I wonder what the leak is really based on, some cof
95 transaeroyyz : Is there no accurate time of release of data from BEA today its noon already in France?
96 ComeAndGo : Between 11 & 16 hrs (11am & 4pm) - so most probably 2pm
97 Kaiarahi : BEA says early afternoon : "Le BEA publiera une note d'information sur les premières constatations résultant de l'exploitation des enregistreurs de
98 Post contains links raaadek : BEA NOTE http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/info27may2011.en.php
99 NAV20 : Thanks, raadek; just found it at this end........ And that's all we get, I guess......
100 Post contains links Baroque : The actual note is at http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....int.enquete.af447.27mai2011.en.pdf And it starts with this advice: SPECIAL FOREWORD TO E
101 Post contains images David L : I would hope so. I thought that's what I was doing in my post however it seems it was interpreted by some as support for the theory. Perhaps I should
102 dragon6172 : Interesting read. Not too much analysis in there... which means the posts here will still be a bunch of theorizing! About what we expected.
103 travelavnut : I unfortunatly don't have time to read it now, but is there any mention on the contents of the FDR / CVR?
104 David L : Not explicitly but I assume that's where the data came from. I suspect there's enough information to allow our resident experts to work with: the rel
105 Post contains images NAV20 : I'm afraid that it only takes about three minutes to read in its entirety. And no, only the odd phrase from the CVR and a few references to attitude,
106 mafi29 : Well, there are quotations from the CVR. The following new findings, cited from the report: "At this stage of the investigation, as an addition to th
107 AirbusA370 : Read it. Why would the PF pull up the nose constantly? Wouldn't you push the nose down as a stall recovery? The inconsistant speeds at 2 h 11 min 40 c
108 David L : So where did the data and quotes form the crew come from? I thought we were all generally agreed that we were expecting a summary of what happened an
109 Post contains links Baroque : Really!!!! 3 pages of text, a map of the flight path. All in 3 minutes. We are astonished. Are you reading this http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/fligh
110 scbriml : Summary of the new findings:
111 pilotaydin : Son of a......i have chills now.....i just finished an analysis of a similar case at my airline, where the speed dropped just like that but they came
112 Pihero : As I thought, there will be more questions than answers, and I unfortunately was right. We do have however other facts to work with : - when the A/P d
113 David L : My untrained eye was drawn to this piece: "The altitude was then about 35,000 ft, the angle of attack exceeded 40 degrees and the vertical speed was a
114 travelavnut : Yeah I was a bit too soon with my reply, it's quite short, I expected a big document. I must say, I felt it was quite a chilling experience reading t
115 pilotaydin : The new airbus procedure allows for thrust reduction, in this case it helped by not aggrevating the nose up moment which is what essentially stopped
116 Baroque : Just out of curiosity Pihero, are you reporting from reading the French version or the English? Too early to ask if there are differences, but I note
117 KFlyer : +1. I was thinking of the same. I had always wondered that the a/c must have made a U turn - hence not being found at the initial search site - it lo
118 Pihero : Just about to go out. David, your remarks are spot on, BUT ... The thrust at high altitude is a fraction of the output at sea level ( 1/3rd, 1/4 th ?
119 travelavnut : Gotcha, thanks! Is it part of the new procedure to reduce the thrust to IDLE? Would there be any reason for pulling the nose up, like what happened h
120 Pihero : I read both and it's quite obvious that the English translation is 90 % correct, technically. The CVR excerpts not so well translated. The comments b
121 LTC8K6 : Wow. They never recovered from the stall.
122 CylonCat : I really don't understand the pitch-up decision. Why? It seems like that would aggrevate the stall, not recover from it.
123 David L : Thanks. I only deduced that the engines were giving "all (or nearly all) they had" and decided to leave any conclusions to the experts. However, I co
124 Baroque : Interesting to say the least. And subtle. But indeed different. And in places, the subtle differences could be critical. I suspect you really are goi
125 AirbusA370 : Maybe his mind was strongly determined to fly over the bad weather to prevent any more (pitot) icing problems.
126 KFlyer : Did anybody realise that the Capt had apparently not been the PF anytime during the whole flight?
127 garpd : That is some scary reading. It all went from routine level cruise to bat***t crazy nose up stall in no time at all.[Edited 2011-05-27 04:59:45]
128 CylonCat : More questions.... What is the maximum operational altitude for the A330? I would guess they were fairly close to it, which would make climbing over t
129 N14AZ : As expected by Pihero the interim report does not give the ultimate answer (and BEA of course never claimed that this was the purpose of this report).
130 Post contains images AustrianZRH : I didn't, but from what I know this is hardly unusual. What stroke me most is the combination of a stall and a pitch-up input from the PF. From my -
131 LTC8K6 : Do we actually know that? I'm more concerned about it taking 1 minute and 30 seconds for him to return after the AP disconnect. By then, they were in
132 pilotaydin : What happened here, in my personal view at least... The crew were aware they lost the speed, and they were starting an avoiding action...now picture y
133 David L : I'm not sure what your point is. The BEA website seems to be having difficulty so I can't get back to the report but, even if the Captain had not bee
134 ferpe : Seems they didn't realize they where in a stall or the stall after the captain came in was so deep that when they tried nose down stall recovery rudde
135 JoeCanuck : The reactions of the pilots sounds eerily like those of the Aero Peru and Birgenair accidents. Sometimes there will be situations when it is impossibl
136 pilotaydin : Yes, going back to my comments on substitution Error.....if we put several pilots into this mess, maybe most of them would produce the same results..
137 David L : OK, I've saved a copy of the report this time. One of the co-pilots flew the take-off with the Captain acting as PNF. Shortly before they got into dif
138 LTC8K6 : The report says that nose down inputs were made at one point. But they did have repeated stall warnings and still kept the nose high most of the time.
139 Post contains links NAV20 : Thnig is, pilotaydin, it seems to be VERY new. Like AFTER AF447. And it appears so far to relate to the A320 only. On a site I visit rarely, I found
140 Post contains images mafi29 : if you really can re-enact this situation in the sim, we are all waiting for your first-hand report!
141 David L : What on earth do you mean by that? And why the quotes around investigators? Actually, this has been discussed quite a lot here.
142 katekebo : Can any Airbus driver on this forum describe what is the "by the book" procedure for stall recovery at 35,000 ft? And what is the procedure written in
143 N14AZ : That's what CNN has on their webpage. The worst simplification of the year. I hope they have better journalists for the political topics and so on (b
144 pilotaydin : I did the new procedure circa one year ago, it was yellow paged into our QRH and we did the procedure in the sim, the procedure was to lower the nose
145 Kaiarahi : As has been pointed out multiple times, pitch (attitude) is NOT the same thing as AOA. If you read the BEA note, you'll see the same point (repeatedl
146 Post contains images wilco737 : I am no Airbus driver, but Boeing driver and our procedure is: NOSE DOWN and gain speed, once the speed is increasing, full thrust and once you are b
147 AustrianZRH : Unlikely. If you assume the deceleration from 10,000 fpm vertical to 0 would occur over a distance of 3 m (vertical, that is in the top 3 m of water
148 BrouAviation : So basically just another one biting the dust after failing to utilize the basic flying skills of stall recognition and recovery after losing airspeed
149 Mastropiero : I have a couple of questions. First one is due to my lack of knowledge about the way Airbus' flight controls work, I apologize if it's a bit of a daft
150 phklm : You will crash guaranteed if stalling and applying this procedure. You are referring to unreliable airspeed procedures, whereas the pilots of AF447 h
151 Trin : I am unable to load almost anything from the BEA's website today, and my version of Vista has wonderful issues with PDF docs. Is there ANY chance that
152 katekebo : So why would the pilot give mainly NOSE UP input as described in the report? Could it be that they never realized that they were in stall? What could
153 pilotaydin : the unreliable airspeed procedure is for after takeoff or at low altitude, if you apply the procedure in the book for cruise level, well....basically
154 Post contains images wilco737 : Not right, not right! Dangerous... Lower nose to around 0° or slightly below and once the speed increases, then add power... And avoid secondary sta
155 Post contains images wilco737 : I don't want to judge why they did that... Maybe the airspeed showed wrongly and they thought they were in a safe speed... And that's why they maybe
156 Post contains images BrouAviation : I'm directly quoting from the QRH here, so I think you have some work to do in Seattle and Toulouse . You are talking about stall recovery I think. B
157 Post contains images wilco737 : My QRH says something else. The 744 stall recovery is differently. 5° nose up and adding power in a stall not good. When you are not in a stall, the
158 BrouAviation : Not so I believe, here in front of me I here have the QRH, part 2.15/2.16 for the A320 series and it has a special data table for power and pitch set
159 BrouAviation : Thats exactly what I am telling you: This isn't the stall recovery procedure, but unreliable airspeed data procedure. When you follow this correctly,
160 AirbusA370 : So there was no problem with the pitot probes at all? The unreliable airspeed problem began when they were already stalled?
161 Post contains images wilco737 : I hope Pilotaydin knows his procedures as he is flying that bird in real life...... wilco737
162 fca767 : Did they have attitude information to see what pitch they were doing (not AOA).
163 Post contains images wilco737 : You never know. Ever been in a sever mountain wave? The airspeed can drop amazingly within seconds. And when you are operating near max altitude, the
164 Post contains images wilco737 : AoA is not the same as pitch. As the report says the AoA was above 35° but the nose never that high. wilco737
165 ferpe : I think you are on to something there, normally if you see that sinkrate on your vertical rate indicator and altitude scale you get really worried an
166 travelavnut : Is my assumption correct that at the AF447 position a mountain wave, or something similar, isn't possible?
167 fca767 : That's what i meant, " I dont mean AOA" that's how i wanted to say it, i think i might have sounded different there. Did they have the Attitude Info?
168 Post contains links holzmann : Speed sensor failure caused Air France crash - report http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americ...france.447.crash/index.html?hpt=T1
169 Post contains images wilco737 : I was talking more general. Of course over the South Atlantic there aren't too many mountains nearby But the wind, especially near thunderstorms can
170 BrouAviation : Now there are three people telling me this, so please enlighten me: Am I right when I say that when the pilots had applied Unreliable Airspeed Indica
171 Post contains images wilco737 : You have attitude information on the PFD. These infos are delivered from the IRU's (IRS).I cannot see the AoA directly, we have a small indication in
172 Post contains images wilco737 : Yes. Pulling up to 16° nose up you shouldn't do, maybe at take off, but that's about it. Oh and during EGPWS and windshear at low level. wilco737 [E
173 fotoflyer71 : With the airspeed being unreliable, perhaps they put too much faith in the stall warning system. I'd love to understand more about the following: "Not
174 comorin : Quick question: this confirms that the aircraft did not break up at any time prior to impact, right? Thanks
175 Post contains images wilco737 : It sounds like it didn't break up inflight. But it is not 100% clearly stated in the report. wilco737
176 JoeCanuck : I really don't think it's that simple. I have been involved in accident investigations in a number of fields and for the most part, safety is mindset
177 KLM772ER : Reading a piece of paper in front of your computer and talking about procedures is one thing, but flying in the ITCZ at night in rough weather is som
178 KLM772ER : Not at all, the report doesn´t quote whether the stall happend because of procedures applied wrongly. It can as well be, and more likely be because
179 ellehammer09 : Returning to this forum after having been outside reach of daily internet connection for more than a year, I'm both surprised and amazed of the develo
180 fca767 : Thanks but I mean did the AF447 pilots see the Attitude on the PFD or was it still from the ACARS that no info was there? or we don't know yet?
181 pilotaydin : Ok, the airbus has the memory item for unreliable airspeed, this is during the initial takeoff and climb phase, after this there is no memory item, i
182 Baroque : I downloaded the PDF so if you want to Email me, I can send a copy. It is just over a megabyte. L o S A alas. I wonder if they even knew they had cli
183 pilotaydin : Well I don't think the weather will stall the airplane, not in normal law at least, the aircraft entered alternate law, which allows the pilots to fl
184 giopan1975 : Lots of questions. At what time did pitots start failing? How long before A/P disengagement? Did they adjust power according to standard procedure for
185 BrouAviation : The fact that 50% is being able to recover, makes it legit to say the other 50% failed. Now that of course doesn't mean the pilots need to carry the
186 Gonzalo : I had the same problem. Fortunately I have a second computer with Google Chrome and... Bingo !! In less then one minute I have the document in front
187 Post contains images travelavnut : You gotta love the media, Dutch "quality" tabbloid De Telegraaf is now running on their homepage the following headline; Air France jet crashed to fas
188 giopan1975 : Turbulence should not have been more than moderate for big intervals. They would have asked for attendants to sit. Turbulence does not appear to be a
189 pilotaydin : I think anything that is outside the aircraft can have icing, however I don't know the logic behind the AOA indicator, I'm not sure what other compon
190 AirbusA370 : "Der Spiegel" focusses only on the "oh so dramatic" last words in the report and the fact that the "pilot" was not in the cockpit
191 Post contains images wilco737 : 'the Pilot'... All 3 in the cockpit are pilots. But only one Captain (Commander)... Interesting how the news treat that again. Sometimes I hate the m
192 KLM772ER : That is true. But they also had CAS fluctuations from 275kts down to 60kts. Mabye that has something to do with blocked Pitot Tubes, maybe some sort
193 garpd : 107 Knots is roughly 123MPH. The impact would have meant an immediate deceleration from 123mph to 0. An impact like that will certainly cause immense
194 Post contains images wilco737 : Yes So true... These 3 minutes must be horrible... I hope the sould of the perished rest in peace.... wilco737
195 spacecadet : It seems like a fairly straightforward case of pilot error to me. I realize it would have been a confusing situation but I see no indication in that r
196 Post contains images wilco737 : As usual... Pilot error, so let's move on. Case closed. Amen. wilco737
197 SLCPilot : Looking at the PFD a modern Airbus aircraft, how obvious is the state of flight control? In other words, is it possible (or likely) that the pilot's f
198 BrouAviation : You mean the solution to prevent this accidents can be found in pilot training? That is quite a shocking conclusion, especially with the Peruvian and
199 casinterest : Damn. That reeport is just scary. I guess it all leaves a lot more questions than answers. Why did they keep trying to raise the nose? Did they think
200 KLM772ER : It is not easy to always predict turbulence. And having severe weather around you, which is a fact there was, you can always encounter them. And it i
201 pilotaydin : Yes...as a pilot and as an incident/accident investigator I am well well aware of this...
202 LTC8K6 : "The airplane was subject to roll oscillations that sometimes reached 40 degrees. The PF made an input on the sidestick to the left and nose-up stops,
203 spacecadet : "As usual"? No, but in this case, yes, it seems that way. There are always people who don't want to put any blame on the pilots whatsoever (even afte
204 KLM772ER : I know you are, it was just the reply to the following: KLM772ER
205 something : Please excuse the ignorant nature of my question, but how can pilots not realize their airplane is virtually 'falling' out of the sky? I mean, even if
206 travelavnut : Not an expert, but IIRC the active law (when the aircraft is not in Normal Law) is very prominently displayed in the PFD just above the artificial ho
207 LTC8K6 : "The PF made nose-down control inputs and alternately left and right roll inputs. The vertical speed, which had reached 7,000 ft/min, dropped to 700 f
208 Trin : Now I am trying to sift through everything this morning and create some kind of understandable picture of the latest report for my less-than-experien
209 pilotaydin : What's shocking about it, if you are going to make an airplane and use technology and STILL keep pilots there, you need to train them for all types o
210 Rara : Question: It does, though. Sorry. If you're stalling from FL350 all the way down to the surface, and your main control input is "nose up", you're obvi
211 comorin : Thank you kindly. I think it would be great if the Gang of Six ( Zeke, Pihero, Pilotaydin, tdscanuck, rfields5421 and Wilco737) could interpret and s
212 upsmd11 : A stall in an aircraft doesn't mean the engine stopped working like in a car. A stall means there isn't enough airflow over the wing to keep the plan
213 sebolino : Sorry, I didn't read all the posts. Can somebody explain why it stalled in the first place ? Of course a proper recovery would have saved the plane,
214 AM744 : Ok, here are some pretty basic questions from an aficionado, so bear with me: Does the autopilot automatically disengages when there's some discrepanc
215 upsmd11 : I'm with sebolino, the BEA report isn't clear on *why* the plane stalled. Was it because of the turbulence, was it because of the allegedly frozen pi
216 liquidair : Hi all, I'm new to the forum, although I have always read the AF 447 thread since 2009.... I have a question, please do not flame me for my ignorance.
217 pilotaydin : The A330 stick is quite sensitive, if you touch it slightly it will give you a lil roll, so those angles will probably be the result of the pilot inp
218 Rara : In any case, the pilots were aware of the flight status, because the mentioned alternate law even before they started to climb: "At 2 h 10 min 16, th
219 JoeCanuck : Please...no need for the hyperbole. I never said the pilots had no share in the accident. What I said was to simply blame the pilots is too simplisti
220 LTC8K6 : Yes. The speed didn't actually drop. The sensors were clogging up with ice, and reporting falsely. Correct, they are different. It lost data. Yes.
221 sebolino : Sure but why did the plane stall ????
222 pilotaydin : When the A/P does not have enough data or input it will disconnect, or when there is a certain threshold exceedance for limits... The speed would sud
223 LTC8K6 : Yes, they are clearly aware that they have lost air speed data and that they are in Alt law. So it seems unlikely that they are reacting to airspeed
224 LTC8K6 : Because of the nose up and climb? It seems the plane is already stalling when the AP disconnects though, and PF inputs continued that stall.
225 phklm : Angle of attack is the angle of the wings relative to the airflow flowing over it. If you have a paper plane and you blow with a fan straight on top
226 Post contains links and images wilco737 : AoA (angle of attack) and pitch attitude are 2 totally different things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack vs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wik
227 ellehammer09 : How can you be so sure??? I'm quite sure you were not onboard. I think it is rather unlikely that 2 or 3 experienced pilots wouldn't have come up wit
228 NAV20 : Or, alternatively, that the instrument display has been so 'pared down' and affected by malfunctions that it doesn't TELL you what's going wrong? Alw
229 pilotaydin : No I don't think so, they were doing 0.80 before the incident, the stall warning was because of the airspeed dropping instantly on an INDICATED level
230 BrouAviation : That happens all to much, and that is not what I am saying. I was reacting on you calling them heroes, which is a term used too much in my opinion. D
231 pilotaydin : I understand where you are coming from, but the 757 is a different era and line, the engineering is different now, hell most of the employees are dif
232 Post contains images wilco737 : Neither can I. It all sounds very weird. And with that report we actually have more questions than anwers. For me this case is by far not closed and
233 astuteman : Accelerations send unmistakeable signals to your body, not velocity...... I'd like to add Mandala499 to the Gang of 6 please as well. I believe this
234 pilotaydin : Yes I agree, in some cases though, the pilot believes that his interpretation is the correct one, which basically throws out procedures and technolog
235 arzenal : So it sounds like 1. Bad airspeed reading from frozen pitot 2. Plane is actually fine, flying at .80 Mach 3. Some turbulence hits, pilots try to maint
236 Post contains images Trin : Yup, thank you both. I am trying to start with the basics here and work outwards from there - otherwise I will never understand what happened to AF44
237 sebolino : At 2h11m40s N1 is near 100 % and the plane is falling at 10000 ft/min. How is that possible ?? At 2h12m02s N1 is at 55 %
238 Post contains images wilco737 : Stall. If you don't have any airflow over the wings, you stall and even if you give 100% thrust, you can still be stucked in the stall if the AoA is
239 phklm : The stall warning only sounded twice during the ill-fated descent; first immediately after disconnection of the A/P and 2 minutes later during when t
240 pilotaydin : Hmm as i suspected, the stall warning takes airspeed data but only when it is computed, below a certain value such as 60 and 30 the data is no longer
241 cc2314 : Were the pilots aware of the rate of descent.I have descended @6k feet on a 763 and by god you feel it. When passing fl100 they must have know they we
242 NAV20 : Many thanks, BrouAviation, you've solved the mystery for me. k In my day, literally forty years go, I had to give up flying (once I got married and h
243 LTC8K6 : So, the first stall warning is actually false. Do the pilots ignore the subsequent stall warnings because of the false first one? They are aware that
244 Rara : Certainly - and the extent to which they had no access to correct information will be one focus of the investigation. Still, if you start stalling at
245 pilotaydin : well, when you're pointing down, it will be much more different than pointing up, and also when wanting to descend like that you will feel it, when y
246 KLM772ER : Totally agree. There are to many information still not public and it is not possible to finally say what caused the crash yet. And as always there wi
247 rohanghosh : Can anyone tell us where the pilot may have been resting in relation to the cockpit on an Airbus A330? Where is the rest/sleeping area for the pilot a
248 fotoflyer71 : That's what I initially thought phklm, however on re-reading it mentions at 2h11m40: "During the following seconds, all the recorded speeds became in
249 pilotaydin : The alternate law just means there is no stall protection, you have to protect yourself, there is still stall warning in alternate law, however, beca
250 lh526 : Putting my PPL and soon to come ATPL knowledge aside, why isn't there a GPS based backup system that crosschecks the atmosherical readings with the GP
251 Post contains links Chamonix : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xiy...ds-plus-rien_news#from=embediframe
252 liquidair : Another question; "The recordings stopped at 2 h 14 min 28. The last recorded values were a vertical speed of -10,912 ft/min, a ground speed of 107 kt
253 Post contains links and images JoeCanuck : Pitch is the angle of the longitudinal centerline of the aircraft in its relation to the ground. In other words, if the plane is exactly parallel to t
254 astuteman : I think the issue is an inference that this is purely pilot error. from my seat, this has all the classic hallmarks of a multiple cause accident, whi
255 GAIsweetGAI : I've only scanned the report and the threads (so many replies...), so my apologies if the following question has been answered: Did the pilots know/re
256 something : Well, but if the point you are trying to make proves true, the last 3.5 minutes shouldn't have been too agonizing for the passengers at least. You ar
257 travelavnut : Probably the reason it's not a good tool to determine airspeed as opposed to groundspeed.
258 pilotaydin : in unreliable airspeed we use the last known wind, and the GPS ground speed and that will give us enough information to put together some sort of idea
259 slarty : I had been thinking the exact same thing. Of course, this would give them ground speed, not air speed, but in situations like this, this would be bet
260 giopan1975 : Are we absolutely sure a/p and a/t were disconnected automatically and not by the crew? It is not made clear in the update.
261 Post contains images LTC8K6 : Yes, we can be sure, because of those unimportant ACARS transmissions... [Edited 2011-05-27 08:33:42]
262 N14AZ : Question regarding the PF and the PNF I remember from other investigation reports that the pilots usually clearly state who is flying. I assume that's
263 Rara : Fully agree
264 pilotaydin : It may be a sign of desperation, maybe the Captain took the left seat and started inputting and the PF on the right gave it up... I have investigated
265 liquidair : They reduced thrust and tried to push the nose down at 02,12:02 would this not indicate they were aware they were in a stall, and were trying to corre
266 giopan1975 : Egypair? Any chance?
267 Trin : Wait a minute - if you're nose-up and you're descending through FL100, how is it possible to not know you're in a stall? Surely, in the very least, th
268 casinterest : Yes in MPH, they were going 123 MPH forward and 124 MPH down. (About 174MPH in total speed applied to the initial impact). Almost a 45 degree of moti
269 N14AZ : I think you mean Egyptair. And yes, it's the national airline of Egypt. They have B 777, A 330, A 340, A 320 and B 737s. But what is your question?
270 Kaiarahi : If you read the whole information note and not just the summary, there WERE in fact nose-down inputs. Question: is it possible the AOA was so steep t
271 pilotaydin : we get seat of the pants feelings all the time, but I think along with monitoring all isntruments, the pilots fixated on certain ones! which could ha
272 huxrules : It seems to me that they were trying to do pitch and power the whole time. But - because of this large pitch up movement that started it - the plane w
273 pzlpw5 : After I read the report I was actually going to start a thread in tech/ops because this really surprises me. So it seems as though it's possible that
274 rl757pvd : Did they know they were descending through 10,000? With the pitot sytem out, wouldnt alitude info also be unavailable/unreliable?
275 giopan1975 : There is a similarity with Egyptair crash, it started going wrong just after relief pilot came in.
276 ZANL188 : Spatial Disorientation. It's dark, you can't see the horizon, the instruments are telling you things that don't make sense.. it happens...
277 liquidair : thank you casinterest. I didn't realise they could have been moving forward so quickly and still be stalled to the extent that they were dropping at
278 Kaiarahi : Yes - there was a call-out. Altitude is fed by the static ports, not the pitots.
279 pilotaydin : 1. because when there is corrupt data, insufficient data, or data that conflicts the a/p clicks off.. 2. stall warning because the blocked pitot redu
280 Trin : Quote PF at 2 h 13 min 32 in the report: "we’re going to arrive at level one hundred". I'm not sure of the technicalities of all the equipment, but
281 NAV20 : Tend very largely to agree, Astuteman. But SOME poor sod has to decide HOW it could possibly have happened, and how best anything like it can be avoi
282 AAExecPlat : Agreed. Sounds like they were at 0.80 before the AP disconnect and they were able to get the plane to climb 3000 feet at that point at that altitude
283 WingedMigrator : Can the sim handle alpha > 35 with any degree of realism? They were flying way outside of the envelope, so I wouldn't expect the sim to handle it
284 famfflores : Not clear to me is: at what moment did they start stalling?
285 adam42185 : Altitude would come from the static ports, not pitot tubes
286 David L : Indeed. And still trying to deny it, it seems. There may have been errors in the way they reacted but they wouldn't have reacted the way they did if
287 mffoda : Just as a point of reference... That is almost exactly the speed of a stable (flat, dumb &happy) skydiver at terminal velocity... Though rare...
288 cc2314 : No matter what focus you have on the instruments surely your body cant ignore the negative g's brought on by descent rate.
289 JoeCanuck : And that's the trick; you're pretty sure not every instrument is lying...but which ones? Where is the truth? What can you trust? How do can you be su
290 ContnlEliteCMH : It's also a far too simplistic conclusion. "More training" is fashionable after these incidents, and it is not improper or misplaced, but it is a poo
291 keta : Is it how the Stall warning system works in the A330? The plane has AoA sensors (which the report says work above 60kt), I thought they would be used
292 kelebek : Could it be that the ascent was due to some strong up-winds inside a thunderstrom-cloud or is that impossible?
293 Post contains images Trin : More than likely, having spent the entire morning reading the report over and over, I'd have to say it was around 2 h 10 min 50secs, while the PF was
294 AustrianZRH : Actually the calculation is very easy. The speed of a plane is a vector with two components: forward and vertical. This would read as (107 kn | 98.7
295 rl757pvd : Are you sure about that? When I went skydiving, the thing that surprised me most was the lack of a zero G feeling the force of the air made it feel g
296 Kaiarahi : Coming from someone who claims glider experience, where AOA is critical, this surprises me.
297 AdmiralRitt : Once again a crew gets disoriented trying to understand a cascade of instrument/AC behaviour warnings Besides finding loopholes in pilot training and
298 Post contains images zeke : The stall warning, and stall are not one in the same. The stall warning comes on approaching the stall (1.03 Vs in alt law), to warn pilots of the ap
299 liquidair : did you not read the BEA report?
300 David L : As someone already mentioned, you only feel g-forces when you're accelerating (or decelerating). The body can also be fooled by changes in g-forces e
301 ZANL188 : Alas that is the nature of spatial disorientation - the human body is a poor aircraft instrument. Don't trust your butt, trust your instruments, &
302 robertm46 : I have never posted to the forum before. I cannot resist here. I see minimal evidence that would indicate that anyone commenting has ever flown an air
303 LTC8K6 : No. -G is caused by accelerating downwards, not just falling. They would have seen no signs of -g. All is falling at the same rate. Everything looks
304 Baroque : Disclaimer. That is from the BEA summary. First BEA are not saying they are the same and second, it might be a problem of the English translation as
305 Post contains links SA7700 : This thread will be locked for further contributions. Should you wish to do so, feel free to continue in part 4, which can be found here: BEA: Total D
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
BEA: Total Data Extraction From AF447 Boxes - Part 1 posted Mon May 16 2011 03:32:51 by Pihero
Hub Scenes From A Bygone Era (Part II) posted Mon Sep 11 2006 00:23:40 by Matt D
Black Box Data Intact From Toronto Jet Crash posted Sat Aug 6 2005 02:28:06 by TACAA320
Flight Data Recorders From Yesterday? posted Wed Sep 12 2001 15:14:56 by Citation501sp
AF447 Wreckage Found, Part 4 posted Mon May 9 2011 14:13:49 by srbmod
Russia's S7 Airlines To Be Part Of Oneworld From 1 posted Fri Sep 24 2010 11:46:33 by AA767400
AF447 - New Interim Report By BEA posted Mon Dec 7 2009 16:05:35 by Breiz
Airplane Part Falls From Sky Over Long Island, NY posted Fri Nov 6 2009 04:36:53 by PlateMan
9E Registrations From BTS Data posted Mon Jan 5 2009 13:40:36 by Cubsrule
Gay Mardi Gras Flight From US Part 2 posted Wed Oct 31 2007 15:21:55 by PanPan
BEA Final Report Of AF447 : 5th July 2012 posted Wed May 30 2012 07:01:17 by Gonzalo
BEA AF447 Final Report? posted Tue Jan 17 2012 11:42:14 by Nomik
Collecting Personal Data From Pax On Board. posted Tue Dec 20 2011 00:22:58 by lmml 14/32
IAG Buys BMI From Lufthansa Part 2 posted Wed Nov 9 2011 09:50:26 by SA7700
IAG Buys BMI From Lufthansa Part 1 posted Fri Nov 4 2011 00:17:46 by overloaduk
Russia's S7 Airlines To Be Part Of Oneworld From 1 posted Fri Sep 24 2010 11:46:33 by AA767400
AF447 - New Interim Report By BEA posted Mon Dec 7 2009 16:05:35 by Breiz