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Phx Mesa Gateway, Next Carrier, Who & When?  
User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3781 times:

http://www.phxmesagateway.org/.

Phoenix Meaa gateway airport, kiwa, aza, recently completed it's terminal expansion and have set records this spring with G4 s continued success. It is the fastest growing commercial airport in the U.S. Over the last 5 years, with only G4 becoming a consistent product ( Vision, Western, and a third carrier) have tried and failed.

I'm just curious and would like to open the discussion to the following:

Who will be the next carrier to serve the airport?

I have always thought it would be worth a try to have a lax route via AA on Eagle or UA with Skywest.
The Phoenix metro area (East valley) and nerby Pinal county can support a slow growing secondary airport. With G4 approaching the 5 year mark of operations and still a single carrier flying into the airport when will the next carrier come in?

Apologies for the typing - via phone
Have a great day!

Also feel free to post any updates relating to the airport!

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinevegasplanes From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 778 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3736 times:

Not so sure about expanded service. Isn't Pinal County and the southeast valley the epicenter of the foreclosure problem in the PHX area? Along with the west, northwest, and other fringe areas. Problem I see is that there are very few businesses in that part of the valley, traffic would all be VFR, not very high-yielding. Another issue is that outside of rush hour, the Phoenix area is very easy to navigate via car and I don't really see any added benefit of flying into AZA vs. PHX.

What I can see is another tour/charter type operation similar to an Allegiant or Sun Country. i.e. less than daily service, most likely during the winter, to Canada and the US midwest for snowbirds. SY to MSP might be a perfectly viable route for AZA, not sure if SY serves PHX or not.

That's my two cents.


User currently offlineKGRB From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 713 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3705 times:

Quoting vegasplanes (Reply 1):
that outside of rush hour, the Phoenix area is very easy to navigate via car and I don't really see any added benefit of flying into AZA vs. PHX.

Well said. PHX has the benefit of being centrally located, right near the I-10/SR-51/Loop 202 interchange. It is easily accessible from all parts of the metro, while IWA is just the opposite.

Also it's not as if PHX is really overcrowded at this point. There is plenty of room there for another carrier to add service/expand, if they wish.

Quoting vegasplanes (Reply 1):
not sure if SY serves PHX or not.

They do, with daily service to MSP. They use a Delta gate in Terminal 3 for their ops.



Δ D E L T A: Keep Climbing
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7776 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3686 times:

Quoting vegasplanes (Reply 1):
Not so sure about expanded service. Isn't Pinal County and the southeast valley the epicenter of the foreclosure problem in the PHX area? Along with the west, northwest, and other fringe areas. Problem I see is that there are very few businesses in that part of the valley, traffic would all be VFR, not very high-yielding. Another issue is that outside of rush hour, the Phoenix area is very easy to navigate via car and I don't really see any added benefit of flying into AZA vs. PHX.

Pretty much any lower to mid-level development in the last 10 years in Metro PHX has been hit pretty hard. Great if you want to buy, not so much otherwise. Much of the southeast valley is still relatively young and is more or less a bedroom community with a light business presence.

I just don't see how service other than G4s successful niche could really work out there. First you would need to price competitively, high fares and a nearby price sensitive community don't mix. Especially when Sky Harbor is 30-40 minutes away on the freeway (traffic dependent of course). And an airline would need to offer a competitive schedule as well.... especially when Sky Harbor isn't all that far away.

Beyond G4 and perhaps a Sun Country type operation I have my doubts that in the immediate or near future that Williams could see more air carrier service. If Tucson struggles as an airline market with PHX two hours away I doubt that Williams could do much more than it has now.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

Phx is easy to get to, however from parts ofthe east valley ( queen creek, Johnson ranch, gold canyon) it's an hour drive or longer. With the countless WN, US, AA, UA and DL flights into the socal area, 4 Rj flights a day should have no problems being filled.

I always thought Skybus would maybe have tried before they folded. In retrospect to SY, G4 serves Iwa via IFP on the random charter.

A new 2500 parkinglot is close to being completed at the end of the runways.


User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1644 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3596 times:

I agree that it will most likely take another G4-esque operator for AZA to see another carrier. I would think if Vision Air decides to return to the metro, they may do so via AZA. I also think if DirectAir ever decides to venture into western markets, AZA could be a prime location for them.

In general, I think AZA's best comparable would be SFB. There is a significant catchment area in terms of population, but the area's true demands (tourism and business) are better served by the larger neighboring airport. Unfortunately for AZA, Phoenix isn't the tourist draw that Orlando is and it's significantly further from Europe, so it isn't appealing to the likes of Monarch, Thomas Cook, Thomson, etc.


User currently offlineMetJetCEO From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 412 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

If it is going to be a G4 style carrier, then it will be Direct Air when/if they make westward expansion.

User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7776 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3519 times:

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 4):
Johnson ranch,

I had to look up where that was since it has been a long time since I lived in the Valley. And if there was ever a place in BFE Johnson Ranch would be it. But even then these communities are still small and relatively new. I still remember when Queen Creek was nothing but a small farming town surrounded by cotton fields.

Quoting steex (Reply 5):
Phoenix isn't the tourist draw that Orlando is and it's significantly further from Europe, so it isn't appealing to the likes of Monarch, Thomas Cook, Thomson, etc.

At major touristy locations I am always surprised by the number of European tourists. The west in general, and the desert, Sedona, Grand Canyon, etc is a pretty big draw for Europeans. But PHX and AZ doesn't quite have the concentrated appeal that Orlando does. If you are coming to the southwest you may also hit up Las Vegas and then the beach in LA/SD. IIRC Condor had a short lived flight to Phoenix in the 1990s before BA become fully entrenched and before LH did the FRA non-stop.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2757 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

How about F9?

They seem to be willing to take some limited risks - e.g. with LAX-SNA and then adding LGB (although this didn't work). And another with TPA/PIE (although this seems to be fading fast) and the announced SLC/ PVU, and the possible MDW/RFD.

Maybe F9 can shift a couple of their 5 or so daily DEN/PHX to DEN/AZA, and spread their coverage of the Phoenix area. And then maybe throw in a MCI/AZA to compete with WN?

Is AZA offering any incentives for new service? This could probably get F9 interested.


User currently offlinevegasplanes From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 778 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3376 times:

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 4):
Phx is easy to get to, however from parts ofthe east valley ( queen creek, Johnson ranch, gold canyon) it's an hour drive or longer.
Quoting DesertJets (Reply 7):
And if there was ever a place in BFE Johnson Ranch would be it.

Isn't the 202 done yet? Was supposed to go straight south through the east valley somewhat near Ellsworth back when I worked with developers in the Valley of the Sun, '04-05 time frame. Sorry, haven't been to that part of the Valley since.

I never understood the whole "drive till you qualify" mentality that lead to Queen Creek, Johnson Ranch etc. being built way out there.....back when Ellsworth and Riggs where the only way in or out of the area.

Did GM close the proving grounds off Ellsworth? I had heard plans of turning it into a industrial park back when real estate was going nuts. If GM is still there, that would be a plus to adding possible service to AZA.


User currently offlineyvphx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Quoting vegasplanes (Reply 9):

Yes, it has been closed for almost 2 years now. Most of it is being turned into new homes and a future large shopping and entrainment district.

Quoting vegasplanes (Reply 9):
Isn't the 202 done yet?

Opened almost 3 years ago. There is a direct link from the 202 San Tan freeway directly into IWA. Also, the airport being accessed from Power Road is only about 5 minutes south of the freeway.

I think someone else could try service and get it done. G4 does NOT fly from IWA to LAS, maybe someone should consider trying? US charges $74 each way from PHX to LAS (plus bag fees). Might there be another alternative? IWA I assume has lower landing fees also.

I think there has been talk of making IWA a foreign trade zone also. There was some talk of this on and off for the last several years, but I don't have a source to quote that from. That airport is rapidly growing, and with only one carrier, G4, using it, I'm amazed no other major airline has taken a stab at it. Hopefully they will start Hawaii service with G4 and take a bite out of the prices roundtrip the Legacy's cost.


User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

The San Tan Valley (unincorporated) while on the outskirts has aproxamently 81,000 people, many smaller markets back east have air service in communities far smaller. Or look at either the Dallas area or Houston both having more than one airport. I know the xomparions are not the best but if G4 is successful there, why cant someone else be as well?

The airport authority us putting all there eggs in one basket with only G4 and I am curious as to whom they could market to? Who are they pursuing and with what argument?

I appreciate all the responses


User currently offlineridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3225 times:

I would think Vision Air would take a close look at Mesa. They have said they will be modeling themselves after G4, and there are lots of markets that they could still initiate service from

User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3095 times:

Vision air used to serve Iwa to Vgt with a D 328 prop

User currently offlineak From United States of America, joined May 2006, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

A little off topic but, what is with all the constant weekend military traffic? I live in San Tan Valley and see Harriers pretty regularly along with F-18's, KC-135R's, C-130's, C-17's, etc....
Not complaining about the noise because I love seeing them hauling a** over my house in formation at low level!



" I am serious...and don't call me Shirley!
User currently offlineyvphx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2959 times:

Quoting ak (Reply 14):
A little off topic but, what is with all the constant weekend military traffic?

The airport serves as more or less an "over-nighter" for many military aircraft and personal. It also has jp-8 fuel for them, which is why they often come to IWA for some downtime and fuel.

It would be nice if G4 was able to get some more destinations to southern California. I know they are a leisure airline, but heck, I'd fly on them to go to San Diego or San Francisco than having to deal with the people and caos that is PHX. Plus, if their pricing scheme is right, it would be cheaper to fly them than anyone else. Just bring your own soda or water and food and pack light.


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2911 times:

Unfortunately, I do not believe any legacy carrier (or their regionals) will serve AZA anytime soon. In addition, I also do not believe any major LCC such as F9 or B6 will serve AZA either.

The airport at this point will most likely attract the smaller liesure / discount airlines such as G4. I think NK could be a likely candidate or perhaps SY moves from PHX to AZA.

Several years ago AZA was positioning itself as an international air cargo hub alternative to LAX / LGB to go along side its Foreign Trade Zone. The airport has the room to accomodate significant growth and could do it at a fraction of the cost of LAX. If this gains traction, we may see a significant portion of AZA's growth coming from Cargo ops.


http://www.azcentral.com/community/m...a/articles/0410mr-airport0410.html


User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

I don't think carho has a very good chance with Phx expanding the cargo apron and building the new cargo facility on the South side of the airport.

With Embraer, Beechcraft and Cessn all opening and operating repair centers, what are the chances of AZA becoming more of a maintenance base type airport? The airport has plenty of undeveloped land, and could give airlines a new slate to work with in the southwest.


User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7776 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2491 times:

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 11):
The San Tan Valley (unincorporated) while on the outskirts has aproxamently 81,000 people, many smaller markets back east have air service in communities far smaller. Or look at either the Dallas area or Houston both having more than one airport. I know the xomparions are not the best but if G4 is successful there, why cant someone else be as well?

Look at it this way there are other places in Arizona -- I am thinking Yavapai and Coconino counties that have a decent sized population and have struggled to retain fairly basic air service. for the roughly 300,000 people in Prescott, the Verde Valley, Sedona and Flagstaff, Sky Harbor is just too close and too well served to make a handful of turboprops or RJs (ironically mostly going to PHX) work. So with the far southeast valley and Williams I still find it hard to see more service beyond another G4 type operation happening in the next decade or two.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2484 times:

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...nix-mesa-allegiant-growth/136351/1

Older article from earlier this year, mentions the airport possibly pursuing USA 3000 and Virgin America. I think the airport should also consider Spirit....


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 18):
am thinking Yavapai and Coconino counties that have a decent sized population and have struggled to retain fairly basic air service. for the roughly 300,000 people in Prescott, the Verde Valley, Sedona and Flagstaff, Sky Harbor is just too close and too well served to make a handful of turboprops or RJs (ironically mostly going to PHX) work.

While the close proximity to PHX and PHX being a well served airport could be a factor, I think these are minor factors. There are many examples around the country of catchment areas the size of Prescott/Sedona/Flagstaff that are within the same distance to larger catchment areas but are able to support more air service than the greater Prescott/Sedona/Flagstaff area is able to support.

I think the main factors are lack of major employers (retirees make up a sizeable percentage of the population in this area) and a lot of second residences in this part of the state (creating a very seasonal traffic demand).

The percetage of population in Yavapai county 60 years of age and older is 32% compared to only 15% in Maricopa county.

The biggest difference between PHX/AZA and other metro areas with 2 or more airports is that other metro areas created larger, better served (ie. offering more destinations) suburban airports that could accomodate additional growth after the smaller, but more convenient downtown airports ran out of room to expand (think of MDW/ORD, DAL/DFW, HOU/IAH, DCA/IAH, LGA/JFK).

In the case of PHX, there is still room to accomodate growth, so PHX can still offer more destinations and/or accomodate more airlines. PHX's ability to accomodate growth greatly reduces the importance or benefits that AZA could have over PHX. The only true benefit AZA can offer over PHX is lower operating costs or a more convenient option to those living in the Southeast Valley.

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 19):
Older article from earlier this year, mentions the airport possibly pursuing USA 3000 and Virgin America. I think the airport should also consider Spirit....

Considering Virgin's focus is on the main airport at large metro areas, I doubt we will see Virgin at AZA any time soon. USA 3000 and NK are much more likely candidates.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4057 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2215 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 20):
USA 3000 and NK are much more likely candidates.

Yes... USA3000 is perfect for it...  


User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2040 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2210 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 21):
Quoting EricR (Reply 20):
USA 3000 and NK are much more likely candidates.

Yes... USA3000 is perfect for it...

Will not happen as USA3K is shutting down and returning all its A320. Should be closed by end 1Q2012.



Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1304 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2191 times:

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 22):
Will not happen as USA3K is shutting down and returning all its A320. Should be closed by end 1Q2012.

Their last A320 will be returned in January of 2013.


User currently offlineAirStairs From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2185 times:

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 7):
IIRC Condor had a short lived flight to Phoenix in the 1990s before BA become fully entrenched and before LH did the FRA non-stop.

It was LTU. Used both the M11 and 763 on DUS-PHX. I used to love watching that flight come in when I was little!


User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1763 times:

Interesting article talking about more projects underway

http://www.azcentral.com/community/m...gateway-airport-expansion0601.html


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