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No Smoking Vs Turn Off Electronic Devices Sign  
User currently offlineCO777DAL From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 575 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10722 times:

I have NEVER seen this before! I was on a United Airlines Embraer 170 and noticed next to the lit fasten seatbelt sign was a lit “Turn off Electronic Devices” sign instead of No Smoking sign.

Here is the video shot from the First Class seat of a United Airlines EMB-170.
http://youtu.be/u7dwdp9I9Ag?hd=1

This stood out to me because I never seen it before and I fly just about every week. I’m use to flying Continental and I was on one of their newest Boeing 737s with Sky Interior and the no smoking sign was still there.

I have a few questions and would like to hear other thoughts.

Is it up to the airline or the manufacture of the aircraft whether there is a no smoking sign or turn off electronic devices sign?
Why do the new Boeings still have no smoking sign and not this?
Which airlines or planes have no electronic devices sign?
Also since it is not a symbol, wouldn’t it be hard for people who do not speak English to understand what it is saying?
Will the no smoking sign be phases out soon?

I saw in another thread Alaska Airlines pilots will have I-Pads. If they can use it below 10,000 then how long before passengers can? It would make the turn off electronic devices sign irrelevant quick. Sure in this sue happy country it is only a matter of time before someone sues.


Worked Hard. Flew Right. Farewell, Continental. Thanks for the memories.
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCEO@AFG From Norway, joined Jan 2001, 244 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10706 times:

Have experienced this on US Airways A319/320/321s as well.


"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue." Steven McCroskey, Airplane!
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 10540 times:

Quoting CO777DAL (Thread starter):
I saw in another thread Alaska Airlines pilots will have I-Pads. If they can use it below 10,000 then how long before passengers can? It would make the turn off electronic devices sign irrelevant quick. Sure in this sue happy country it is only a matter of time before someone sues.

Huh? Who is suing whom over what?

NS


User currently offlineNWADC9 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4892 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 10440 times:

Quoting CO777DAL (Thread starter):
I saw in another thread Alaska Airlines pilots will have I-Pads. If they can use it below 10,000 then how long before passengers can? It would make the turn off electronic devices sign irrelevant quick. Sure in this sue happy country it is only a matter of time before someone sues.

Then they'll lose for failing to read FAR 121.306 further:

"(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any U.S.-registered civil aircraft operating under this part.

(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—

(1) Portable voice recorders;

(2) Hearing aids;

(3) Heart pacemakers;

(4) Electric shavers; or

(5) Any other portable electronic device that the part 119 certificate holder has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
"



Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
User currently offlineLuftfahrer From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 1000 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10359 times:

KLM's E-190 aircraft have it as well. Here's a closer look (picture of mine):


Quoting CO777DAL (Thread starter):
Also since it is not a symbol, wouldn’t it be hard for people who do not speak English to understand what it is saying?

On the Embraer, you are correct, but IIRC Airbus aircaft use a symbol.



Et là tu montes encore plus haut et ça persiste, alors on vole
User currently offlineCO777DAL From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10241 times:



Quoting gigneil (Reply 2):
Huh? Who is suing whom over what?

Not saying it has happen. Saying that it is only a matter of time before someone is like why can a pilot use the Ipad and I can't. Not like Apple is making a special I-Pad for pilots. It's going to be hard to argue that it okay for pilots to use the same I-Pad a customer has and the pilots are closer to all the avionics.

[Edited 2011-05-29 19:00:15]


Worked Hard. Flew Right. Farewell, Continental. Thanks for the memories.
User currently offlineash1111 From Australia, joined Dec 2008, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10104 times:

Just got off a VA 77W with the no electronic devices sign. Could have sworn the Virgin America A320 also had the sign.

User currently offlineloggat From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 666 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10089 times:

On the EMBs it is a customer choice. We have a couple of E190s that have no smoking signs (aircraft bought second hand), but the remainder of our E170/E175/E190 fleet all have the no PED light.


There are 3 types of people in this world, those that can count, and those that can't.
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2530 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10089 times:

Quoting CO777DAL (Thread starter):
I saw in another thread Alaska Airlines pilots will have I-Pads. If they can use it below 10,000 then how long before passengers can? It would make the turn off electronic devices sign irrelevant quick. Sure in this sue happy country it is only a matter of time before someone sues.

Two parts to the answer. At first, AS pilots will only be allowed to use the iPads above 10,000 feet. The other point is that the iPads are going through an intensive study of RF emissions in all phases of flight & usage. Once they pass these tests, then they'll be allowed on below 10,000ft. These are the same tests all other avionics used in aircraft are put through before being allowed to be used by flight crews.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 5):
Not like Apple is making a special I-Pad for pilots.

Actually, they are. And each one will be tested to the final standards before being sent to AS for use onboard.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21105 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10080 times:

Quoting CEO@AFG (Reply 1):
Have experienced this on US Airways A319/320/321s as well.

US has had these for a long time now on their 320 family.

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 4):
IIRC Airbus aircaft use a symbol.

Must be customer-specific, since US has the text.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2981 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10058 times:

Quoting CEO@AFG (Reply 1):
Have experienced this on US Airways A319/320/321s as well.

All pre-merger US aircraft have the signs, however, pre-merger HP aircraft do not. All aircraft ordered post merger will have the sign. Additionally, all A333s, A332s, and E190s have the sign as well. US started this trend in the USA.

Quoting ash1111 (Reply 6):
Just got off a VA 77W with the no electronic devices sign. Could have sworn the Virgin America A320 also had the sign.

VA has a sign, but unlike airbus where the cockpit controls the sign when the aircraft passes above FL10, however on boeing aircraft, flight attendant turns off the sign after the passing 10000 ping has sounded.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineinitious From Singapore, joined Dec 2008, 1053 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10041 times:

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 4):
but IIRC Airbus aircaft use a symbol
Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Must be customer-specific, since US has the text.

I guess it must be customer specific. Here's a picture I took on a TG A346.




One way I will fly around the world!
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9998 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Must be customer-specific, since US has the text.

Does anyone actually have a symbol? Personally, I think a good symbol would be a power symbol with a red X through it. I remember that some older aircraft that I flew on (such as many 727s and L-1011s) had text for the No Smoking and Fasten Seat Belt signs. Some L-1011s also even had an illuminated "Life Vest Under Seat" sign.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinelaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9970 times:

I have seen this on VX. I believe they should have had No Smoking printed on somewhere, or am I wrong? If not, it is assumed that the pax know not to smoke.

Thank you in advance for all answers and/or comments,

laxboeingman



The real American classics: LAX and Boeing.
User currently offlineAflyingkiwi From New Zealand, joined Nov 2010, 513 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9915 times:

NZ have them on their 77W's & new A320's.

Regards,
aflyingkiwi


User currently offlineKLM777300ER From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9876 times:

US have had that for a long time. I remember flying their A333 on the FRA-PHL route back in 2004 and seeing it for the first time. Lufthansa has it on some of its longhaul aircraft too. I've flown a number of airlines with it but its common enough now that it is hard for me to differentiate which airlines/aircraft have it and which don't that I've flown.

User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 2929 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9666 times:

Probably 75% of all my flights in the last 2 years has the turn off electronic devices sign instead of the No Smoking

These I can recall having them:

SQ A380-800
SQ A330-300
SQ 777-300ER (I think this one had it)
TG A330-300
TG A340-500
TG A340-600
TG 777-200ER (I think this one had it)
DY 737-800 (One of the newer ones)

I'm sure there have been others.

But, what I saw was that the feature was more seen on Airbus Aircraft (the whole range). While, I've only seen it on select Boeing 777's, and some of the newest 737's.

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlinebj87 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9392 times:

Quoting CO777DAL (Thread starter):
I have NEVER seen this before! I was on a United Airlines Embraer 170 and noticed next to the lit fasten seatbelt sign was a lit “Turn off Electronic Devices” sign instead of No Smoking sign.

I used to wonder why they kept the no smoking sign. Guess airlines are slowly realizing that an electronic device light would be more logical.

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 3):
(4) Electric shavers;

So just to be clear I can't listen to music on my iPod but I am allowed to shave during landing? Gotta love regulations. And no I am not seriously going to shave during my next landing.  
Quoting CXfirst (Reply 16):
But, what I saw was that the feature was more seen on Airbus Aircraft (the whole range). While, I've only seen it on select Boeing 777's, and some of the newest 737's.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that all Airbus planes after the A300/310 have fly by wire computer controls and are therefore more susceptible to electronic interference. Would explain why it is more common on the 777 than on the 747/767 and 737s.

Probably non sense but who knows, it might play a role in the decision.

I still find it difficult to believe a bunch of iPads could bring down an airliner though. It could take the game Angry Birds to a whole other level 


User currently offlinebrightcedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1286 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9327 times:

I thought it would make much more sense than the non smoking sign when smoking is banned anyway pretty much worldwide on airlines (how is it on CU, IR or RB, anyone knows?).

Now a more or less universal symbol should be drawn. It shouldn't be assumed to someone who can use an iPod can read and understand English.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineN104UA From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 897 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9266 times:

Quoting CO777DAL (Thread starter):

I saw in another thread Alaska Airlines pilots will have I-Pads. If they can use it below 10,000 then how long before passengers can?

First off you should understand why you can not use electronic devices under 10,000ft. That is because the majority of accidents happen when the plane in under 10,000ft and in the event you need to evacuate the aircraft they want your undivided attention and not watching a movie on your iPod or your Laptop flying somewhere in the cabin if you crash. It is the same reason you need to have your seat and tray table up for landing and takeoff, not because you will get hurt if it is down or your seat is reclined but because if you need to evacuate it will be in your way or another passengers way. I hope they never change the rule about no electronics under 10,000 ft because I do not want to die in a plane crash because some kid next to me is playing Angry Birds and listening to music on his iPhone



"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6590 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9219 times:

Quoting CO777DAL (Thread starter):
I saw in another thread Alaska Airlines pilots will have I-Pads. If they can use it below 10,000 then how long before passengers can? It would make the turn off electronic devices sign irrelevant quick. Sure in this sue happy country it is only a matter of time before someone sues.
Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 5):
Saying that it is only a matter of time before someone is like why can a pilot use the Ipad and I can't. Not like Apple is making a special I-Pad for pilots. It's going to be hard to argue that it okay for pilots to use the same I-Pad a customer has and the pilots are closer to all the avionics.

The major difference is, if the crew suspects they have their iPad interfering with anything, they switch it off immediately and pull out the charts from the manual rack (because the pilots won't be carrying paper charts anymore).

The iPads used for flight deck, may not be special iPads, but they must go through proofing flights and certification for airborne use... The one you carry may not be any different, but, it hasn't gone through the same process.

For use as Class 1 (ie: not fixed onto the aircraft itself), one has to put away the device during take off and landing...
For use as Class 2 (fixed onto the aircraft through a mounting), the mounting has to be certified, the power supply (if connected to the aircraft) will have to be certified, and certain limitations of use in various situations (if there is) must be stated... such as no WiFi... (Hey, Boeing and either RockwellCollins or Honeywell discovered that WiFi in in the cockpit could blank out some of the airplane displays (Phase III type displays) whilst on the ground and has issued instructions to not use WiFi in the flight deck until further notice).

The above is just to show that while the device may be the same, one went through a controlled approval process... while the one you're carrying, does not.

And no, I do not want my evacuation path to be blocked because someone was caught off guard because he/she was playing angry birds or a fishing game during a mishap on their ipads or iphone...

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21105 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9188 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 12):
Personally, I think a good symbol would be a power symbol with a red X through it.

Better would be a laptop and an MP3 player with an X through them.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8985 times:

Quoting CO777DAL (Thread starter):
I saw in another thread Alaska Airlines pilots will have I-Pads. If they can use it below 10,000 then how long before passengers can?

Because a) They're being used as flight bags anyway, and don't interfere with avionics when the a/c mode is turned on. You're asked not to have them on below 10,000 so that you're aware of what's going on and able to listen to the PA anyway, it's not really to do with interfering avionics.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 5):
Not like Apple is making a special I-Pad for pilots.

Yep, they are.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8795 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 22):
it's not really to do with interfering avionics.

It has EVERYTHING to do with interference.  


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3154 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8777 times:

Quoting CO777DAL (Thread starter):
Here is the video shot from the First Class seat of a United Airlines EMB-170.
Quoting initious (Reply 11):
I guess it must be customer specific. Here's a picture I took on a TG A346.
Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 4):
KLM's E-190 aircraft have it as well. Here's a closer look (picture of mine):

Interesting to see how you guys all took pictures of the sign being lit... or didn't you use electronic camera's?  
Quoting bj87 (Reply 17):
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that all Airbus planes after the A300/310 have fly by wire computer controls and are therefore more susceptible to electronic interference. Would explain why it is more common on the 777 than on the 747/767 and 737s.

A way more logical explanation, is that 20 years ago, people were not carrying electronic devices on board nearly as much as now. Back in the days when the 747s and 767s were built, laptop computers like these weren't nearly as comfortable to to work with, and the early mobile phones didn't support Angry Birds yet.



Besides that, I expect that modern aircraft have way better shielding than for example a DC-9 or 727; simply because at the time, electronic devices on board did not exist.


25 spudsmac : Do you have a source for this?
26 Post contains images Luftfahrer : Interesting. Now where have I seen the icon? I used "a picture that should never have existed" as a caption in the trip report where I posted it...
27 yeelep : I'm guessing HAL has insider knowledge, Seattle based pilot (wonder who for?). I was under the possibly mistaken impression that they had already bee
28 Post contains links and images Luftfahrer : I wonder why AS (and all the other carriers evaluating pilot use of the iPad) don't go for a normal Electronic Flight Bag. LH, for instance, has start
29 cschleic : If that were the case, wouldn't the loads of phones and other devices accidentally (or not accidentally) left on during take off and landing have cau
30 joost : How much interference does an electronic device without any signal transmitting give anyways? The normal Electronic Flight Bag lacks Angry Brids-supp
31 spotterke : If you look to video's of pilotsey.tv they have their videocamera's right on the glareshield to shoot their video's.Doesn't that cause interference to
32 Post contains images mandala499 : You can still play Angry Birds using a browser (if installed) and also post here while you should be doing the approach briefing... provided you have
33 goblin211 : I think it's a good idea. Most pax look at the set-belt sign to see if it's lighted and then make the decision to move about the cabin. however, if th
34 phllax : This more than likely was a former US E170 that was sold to Republic. As stated above, all pre-merger US East Airbus and Embrear E170 & 190 serie
35 Post contains links and images Fly2HMO : I've already posted similar thoughts on this a million times already so in summary as a pilot I have already had several failures due to interference
36 sahibm : I was on United flight yesterday from IAD to JFK and the passenger next to me was using his iPad (reading something), We were landing and flight atten
37 C680 : And the plane was able to land? I thought it would have exploded... I think there is a bit of a Moore's Law efect going on with EFBs. If you think ab
38 tdscanuck : FBW no, because it's heavily shielded. Avionics, yes. It happens quite often, most often with the communications system, next most often with the AHR
39 HAL : Nothing official - my neighbor is a senior Captain for AS, and he and I were discussing the differences between our airlines. That's possible. My las
40 N104UA : But you can still hear reading a magazine, it would not be too easy to control if the airlines said Blackberrys are okay as long as you do not have h
41 CO777DAL : I see that people mention that they saw the signs on Airbus, ERJs, and CRJs. What about the Boeing 737? I know new ones are being made but all new one
42 1337Delta764 : I never seen a 737 with the Turn Off Electronics sign, however, DLs 737s have printed on (non-illuminated) No Smoking signs.
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