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Airbus Stops A320P2F  
User currently offlined-aiqc From Germany, joined Apr 2002, 24 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12747 times:

Airbus stopps the A320P2F conversation programme due to less demand!

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...p-freighter-conversion-progr/home/


d-aiqc
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12639 times:

Quoting d-aiqc (Thread starter):
Airbus stopps the A320P2F conversation programme due to less demand!

No, No,

the demand for the pax version is so strong that there are virtually no frames for freighter conversion left.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12555 times:

Quoting robffm2 (Reply 1):
No, No,

the demand for the pax version is so strong that there are virtually no frames for freighter conversion left.

Might be a slight difference there. Looks as if the second version is the case. Interesting. Perhaps they need a NEO to free up frames for Fs!!!


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6482 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12536 times:

Quoting d-aiqc (Thread starter):
Airbus stopps the A320P2F conversation programme due to less demand!
Quoting robffm2 (Reply 1):
the demand for the pax version is so strong that there are virtually no frames for freighter conversion left.

These are two sides to the same coin, are they not? Besides which, right now the 757 seems to be taking up a lot of the narrowbody P2F conversion market.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12203 times:
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Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
right now the 757 seems to be taking up a lot of the narrowbody P2F conversion market.

Mostly due to low residual values. Does anyone have a good link to A320-200 resale values?

FedEx was paying only $8million per 757 but recently upped their offer to $10million to speed up airframe purchases.
Most likely, the resale values of A320s make it uneconomical as a near term freighter conversion.

From the OP link:"In addition, strongly growing passenger traffic results in high demand for used A320 Family aircraft, thus reducing the amount of aircraft available for conversion." Translation: The price of conversion airframes has gone up a few million $ each, so for now, we won't do this P2F.

I suspect with the life and cycle extensions of the A320 fleet that we'll see an A320 P2F, just after A320NEO production 'hits stride." Does anyone have an update on the A320 life extension?

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineMWHCVT From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11605 times:

But what about the airlines that have already signed up for the A320P2F if I remember correctly West Air Europe were supposed to be one of the first operators (possibly launch customer) but my memory may be way off the mark on this point  

Matt
MWHCVT



Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29684 posts, RR: 84
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11241 times:
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Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
Mostly due to low residual values. Does anyone have a good link to A320-200 resale values?

Looking a bit under $6 million for a 1988 delivery ranging to $11.5 million for a 1993 delivery.


User currently offlinespencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1633 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10535 times:

Just out of interest are those figures "in service" figures or pre- config figures?
Spence



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlineCO38 From Norway, joined May 2009, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10283 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
Mostly due to low residual values. Does anyone have a good link to A320-200 resale values?

There are a few 1991-1992 A320 frames for sale at controller.com starting at US$5.9mill.

http://www.controller.com/list/list....TID=1&catid=3&Manu=AIRBUS&setype=1

"LAXIntl" have started several threads here on a.net regarding the resale value on several airliner types, which I find pretty interesting! Aircraft Values, And Lease Pricing –Christmas 2010 (by LAXintl Dec 22 2010 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9208 times:
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Quoting CO38 (Reply 8):
"LAXIntl" have started several threads here on a.net regarding the resale value on several airliner types

Thanks! I'm looking into that one now.  
Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Looking a bit under $6 million for a 1988 delivery ranging to $11.5 million for a 1993 delivery.

Sheesh, so pricey vs. a MD-80.     

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29684 posts, RR: 84
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8808 times:
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Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
Sheesh, so pricey vs. a MD-80.     

You literally cannot give away an MD-81 now. A 20-year old version is worth maybe a half-mil.


User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8668 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
FedEx was paying only $8million per 757 but recently upped their offer to $10million to speed up airframe purchases.

Huh. The Palm Beach Post says Trump paid $100 million for his.

Why do I think they've been snookered?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29684 posts, RR: 84
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8109 times:
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Quoting wjcandee (Reply 11):
Huh. The Palm Beach Post says Trump paid $100 million for his.

Trump's has a nicer interior, I imagine...

Heck, Trump's has an interior, period, I imagine...

 


User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7902 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Trump's has a nicer interior, I imagine...

For sure!

However, I doubt even Trump could spend $90MM on an interior. A truly luxurious interior can be done for $20 million or less, and this thing started out as Paul Allen's plane, so it can't be that bad to start with. (I note that Gore Design, which did the Google plane, likes to bandy about numbers like $25 million to $45 million to redo a luxurious 767-200, but when the Google litigation erupted, it turned out that their budget on the Google plane was actually only $10 million. Seems like everybody likes to inflate numbers...)

For comparison, Allegiant budgeted $90MM to buy six 757s, refurbish them, and bring them on their certificate, or about $15 million each, all inclusive.

I'm guessing that Trump's plane was acquired and remodeled for about a quarter to a third of what the PB Post suggests. Perhaps someone told them that a new 757 goes for about that...

The more interesting thing is that buying and outfitting a 757 as a corporate jet gives you a look-at-me airplane for less than a new Gulfstream (which is about $45 million).

[Edited 2011-06-03 17:32:22]

User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 855 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7573 times:

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 13):
The more interesting thing is that buying and outfitting a 757 as a corporate jet gives you a look-at-me airplane for less than a new Gulfstream (which is about $45 million).

Whatever saving you make at the aquisition will more than be negated when you operate said passenger plane.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3942 times:

I'm a bit disappointed to return from the weekend and see only 14 posts on this subject, I think cancelling the freighter conversion program of such a succesful airframe is a pretty major decision. This looks like more than an indefinite postponement, as Airbus is terminating the Airbus Freighter Conversion joint venture with Irkut. So for any potential program relaunch in the future, the industrial setup would have to be redone from scratch (though I admit the engineering design work is mostly done).

I certainly did not see this abrupt end coming, as flight tests were planned to happen next year, and an airframe, MSN211, had already been selected. Cancelling a program at such an advanced phase is surprising, to say the least.

Quoting robffm2 (Reply 1):
the demand for the pax version is so strong that there are virtually no frames for freighter conversion left.

This is the "official" reason stated in the press release, and while there is certainly truth to that statement, I refuse to believe it is the only reason. Airbus may be having a resource problem here, and the weakest program, A320P2F, has been sacrificed for the more profitable and/or higher priority ones - A320NEO, A350, A400M.

The sharklet and TrentXWB campaigns start this fall, the A350 is supposed to fly mid-2012 (we'll see...), in parallel the A400M will be conducting a complex military certification campaign. Too many aircraft to certify at one time!


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6482 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3847 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 15):
Airbus may be having a resource problem here, and the weakest program, A320P2F, has been sacrificed for the more profitable and/or higher priority ones - A320NEO, A350, A400M.

Yep, and EADS now only has one first-party freighter program available: The A330-200. I guess you could buy a civil A400M, but that's unlikely. Now, only one manufacturer offers new and/or converted freighters in every size category. If the 777BCF program takes hold, Boeing's offerings will be complete.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3828 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 15):
I'm a bit disappointed to return from the weekend and see only 14 posts on this subject, I think cancelling the freighter conversion program of such a succesful airframe is a pretty major decision.

Your next sentence could possibly be one reason why it is so low key.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 15):
This looks like more than an indefinite postponement, as Airbus is terminating the Airbus Freighter Conversion joint venture with Irkut

This was not an Airbus only conversion, it was a joint venture with a Russian company, so..........


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29684 posts, RR: 84
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3729 times:
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Quoting robffm2 (Reply 1):
the demand for the pax version is so strong that there are virtually no frames for freighter conversion left.

Which is interesting, since according to Aircraft Value News, the number of used A320-200 airframes available for lease or purchase is the highest it has been for over a year - equivalent to three months full production out of TLS, XFW and TJN.

A 1988 delivery is worth about $6 million and a 1993 is $12 million, so it's possible the base airframes are still too expensive to buy and convert, even if readily available. Those equipped with V2500-A1 engines are claimed to be difficult to re-market, but then they may not be viable conversion candidates.

[Edited 2011-06-06 08:02:21]

User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1490 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3558 times:
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Quoting wjcandee (Reply 13):
For comparison, Allegiant budgeted $90MM to buy six 757s, refurbish them, and bring them on their certificate, or about $15 million each, all inclusive.

And one of these is derelict at IGM being parted out


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3313 times:

I would have thought that the NEO would bring down aircraft values for the A320 Classics, which operators would progressively replace by NEOs thereby freeing up Classics for P2F conversions, but Airbus seems to think otherwise. If so, then Airbus is basically saying that even with the ramp-up to 40 per month, they will not meet demand for existing a/c replacement + growth + would-have-been P2F, and that operators will be holding on to A320Classics for quite a while even after NEO introduction.

User currently offlinebmibaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1784 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3111 times:

Quoting n471wn (Reply 19):
And one of these is derelict at IGM being parted out

You're sure about that? The aircraft are currently being stored until the airline can fly them.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29684 posts, RR: 84
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2987 times:
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Quoting r2rho (Reply 20):
I would have thought that the NEO would bring down aircraft values for the A320 Classics, which operators would progressively replace by NEOs thereby freeing up Classics for P2F conversions, but Airbus seems to think otherwise.

It should, but that likely won't happen till around the end of the decade when sufficient neo deliveries are in service.


User currently offlineRubberJungle From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2010, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2909 times:

Some more detail:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...lues-for-end-of-p2f-programme.html


User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1490 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2833 times:
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Quoting bmibaby737 (Reply 21):
You're sure about that? The aircraft are currently being stored until the airline can fly them.

Positive---saw it last week and it is on railroad ties and the registration is painted on with a black spray can and says N950 PT with PT standing for "part out".....Trust me they are down to 5 757's


25 Stitch : Just checking 737-400 values, a 1988 EFIS HGW delivery is about $4 million and a 1996 delivery is $7 million - and they're only getting cheaper. So I
26 r2rho : What are the chances of some third party going at it alone and offering freighter conversions? I guess the financial risk is too high to be taken upon
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