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Why Didn't CX Order Other A/C?  
User currently offlinegoblin211 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4425 times:

All they have are the 747s, 777s, 340s and 330s. Bigger fleet than some airlines but didn't they want any 320s or 737s for domestic routes? 757s maybe? Or was the market already full of competitors? I think I heard somewhere they've ordered the 350. Is this true, or was it the 787? I assume one or both of these a/c will replace the 744s and triples and Airbuses. I can't help but think their livery would look amazing on a 737.

[Edited 2011-06-07 15:11:48]


From the airport with love
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesquared From Canada, joined May 2005, 387 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4412 times:

Quoting goblin211 (Thread starter):
All they have are the 747s and the 777s

CX (combined with KA) are the world's largest operator of A330s...


User currently offlineQFA787380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4385 times:

Sorry,

but you need to do a bit of homework. CX has been much discussed here and they have a fleet of WB aircraft nicely balanced between Airbus and Boeing. Their recent orders have been for 777-300ERs, of which they now have 46 on order and this number will increase with a likely add-on order at Le Bourget. They also have many Airbus A330-300s. They have been operating these successfully on regional routes for many years and continue to add top-up orders. Just last year they ordered 30 A350-900s and have a further 2 on lease. I think this number will also eventually increase. This will form the majority of their fleet going forward.
Older types that will be retired soon include 747-400, A340-300 and 777-300. They are also a big 747 cargo operator and have ordered 10 747-8F and they are often talked about as being a prospective A380/747-8I customer.


User currently offlineDornier328JET From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4383 times:

Cathay doesn't operate much in the way of "domestic" routes, save for Beijing and Shanghai. It's primary a long haul, premium airline. Most of the PRC flying is done by Dragonair; as such, Cathay doesn't have much need for short-haul narrowbody aircraft.

User currently offlinegoblin211 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4364 times:

Quoting squared (Reply 1):

I edited the post right when you posted.



From the airport with love
User currently offlineukoverlander From United Kingdom, joined May 2010, 368 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4335 times:

Cathay also flies A330's and A340's and will in my opinion be an A380 customer in the future. However passenger demand is substantial to and from Hong Kong and so large aircraft are the norm even on relatively short hops such as Hong Kong to Manilla, etc and other nearby international destinations meaning Cathay has little need for the 737/AA320 sized aircraft. if you've never been to Hong Kong airport it's worth a visit. The sheers volume of heavies on the tarmac is quite a sight.

In addition DragonAir is a wholy owned subsidiary of Cathay that also does a lot of flying in the region. They do operate some A320/1's as well as A330's. It's possible that they cater to some of the routes where a slightly smaller aircraft might be needed. I am sure some of our other A-netters can expand on all of this - hopefully this gives at least some level of insight.


User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1647 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4176 times:

Quoting goblin211 (Thread starter):
didn't they want any 320s or 737s for domestic routes?

Exactly which domestic routes would CX fly in a city-state such as Hong Kong?

Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 2):
you need to do a bit of homework

For sure!

Quoting Dornier328JET (Reply 3):
Cathay doesn't operate much in the way of "domestic" routes, save for Beijing and Shanghai

Sorry -- Shanghai and Beijing are international flights from HKG. HKG is effectively an independent part of China. Even the short ferry ride to Macau (1 hour) is an international journey -- you exit HKG and enter Macau. I have a nice collection of entry and exit stamps in my passport after a dinner hop to Macau a few years ago.

[Edited 2011-06-07 17:36:18]


I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineoa412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5274 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4142 times:

Quoting goblin211 (Thread starter):
I can't help but think their livery would look amazing on a 737.

That's all well and good, but airlines can't purchase aircraft based upon how good they'd look in their livery. At this point in time, CX has not ordered single-aisle aircraft because they don't have any need for them. If they did, they'd already be in CXs fleet.

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 6):
Quoting goblin211 (Thread starter):didn't they want any 320s or 737s for domestic routes?
Exactly which domestic routes would CX fly in a city-state such as Hong Kong?

Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 2):you need to do a bit of homework
For sure!

     



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9102 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4078 times:

Quoting goblin211 (Thread starter):
Bigger fleet than some airlines but didn't they want any 320s or 737s for domestic routes?

Cathay owns Dragonair, they operate the A320/A321.

Quoting goblin211 (Thread starter):
I think I heard somewhere they've ordered the 350. Is this true, or was it the 787? I assume one or both of these a/c will replace the 744s and triples and Airbuses.

At the moment over 90 aircraft on order, combination of 747-8F, 77W, A333, A350. The 787 has been ruled out.

Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 2):
Just last year they ordered 30 A350-900s and have a further 2 on lease.

30 orders + 30 options, they are not restricted on the -900 model.

Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 2):
Older types that will be retired soon include 747-400, A340-300 and 777-300.

No current plans to retired exostsig aircraft, some swapping of A330s between Draginair and Cathay are planned.

Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 2):
They are also a big 747 cargo operator and have ordered 10 747-8F and they are often talked about as being a prospective A380/747-8I customer.

As well as the 77F and A332F.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6603 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4044 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 2):
Older types that will be retired soon include 747-400, A340-300 and 777-300.

No current plans to retired exostsig aircraft, some swapping of A330s between Draginair and Cathay are planned.

Apart from the 744s which are slowly being retired. The first is currently being scrapped with another to follow towards the end of this year. The end-date for the 744s though is one that keeps changing depending on the economy and fuel prices.


User currently offlineQFA787380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4009 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
At the moment over 90 aircraft on order, combination of 747-8F, 77W, A333, A350. The 787 has been ruled out.

You would quite confidently say that CX would have no interest in the 787-10X if /when Boeing offers it, primarily as a 333 replacement?


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9102 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3939 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 9):
Apart from the 744s which are slowly being retired. The first is currently being scrapped with another to follow towards the end of this year. The end-date for the 744s though is one that keeps changing depending on the economy and fuel prices.

The Chief Executive has said there is no plans to reduce the fleet until 2015 as they need the aircraft to retain landing slots in HKG. That is when the airport is projected to be fully saturated with slots.

Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 10):
You would quite confidently say that CX would have no interest in the 787-10X if /when Boeing offers it, primarily as a 333 replacement?

One of the reasons the 787 was ruled out is that the CX seats will not fit in the aircraft without modification, and the modification required to fit them would result in a seat that is narrower than what is offered in the other aircraft, and it is considered narrow enough that passengers would notice. They could go 8 across, the economics of the aircraft is not that good.

That was one of the reasons, not the only.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4768 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3898 times:
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Quoting Brenintw (Reply 6):
Exactly which domestic routes would CX fly in a city-state such as Hong Kong?

Chek Lap Kok to Sek Kong??? 


User currently offlineQFA787380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
One of the reasons the 787 was ruled out is that the CX seats will not fit in the aircraft without modification, and the modification required to fit them would result in a seat that is narrower than what is offered in the other aircraft, and it is considered narrow enough that passengers would notice. They could go 8 across, the economics of the aircraft is not that good.

Great, doesn't answer my question of 787-10X as a CX 333 replacement. Width of the seats couldn't be an issue here and I suspect it isn't with CX either. Boeing are saying 2/3 to 3/4 of all 787 operators will use 9-ABR Y. I don't know why CX's seats are so special that this is precluded, particularly when a 9-ABY 787 is more comfortable than a 10-ABR 777.
Sounds like a load of absolute spin to me.


User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3870 times:

Quoting goblin211 (Thread starter):
Bigger fleet than some airlines but didn't they want any 320s or 737s for domestic routes?

hmmm domestic routes like kawloon to Hong Kong Island... sorry could not resist.

I believ you mean regionally



John@SFO
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3827 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
One of the reasons the 787 was ruled out is that the CX seats will not fit in the aircraft without modification, and the modification required to fit them would result in a seat that is narrower than what is offered in the other aircraft, and it is considered narrow enough that passengers would notice. They could go 8 across, the economics of the aircraft is not that good.

So the CX seats will fit 9-abreast on A350 and still provide functional aisles? For the same seats, A350 aisles will be about 2.5" wider than that for 787. The A350 aisles with A330 seats will be about 2-3" narrower than A330 aisles. Perhaps a gap of 5-6" in aisle space between A330 and B787 is going to render the 787 aisles nearly non functional.

3-3-3 format might save few inches by having two less armrest than 2-4-2 format(?)

Cabin width(rounded) for some of the aircraft are as follows:
A330........17' 4"
B787........18' 0" (+8")
A350........18' 5" (+13")
B777........19' 3" (+23")


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2614 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3819 times:
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Quoting goblin211 (Thread starter):
but didn't they want any 320s or 737s for domestic routes?

What domestic routes? Have you seen the size of Hong Kong?

As others have mentioned, Cathay own Dragonair, which operates within the region and does have a fleet of A320s. CX mainline do not, as there is no need for them.

Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 2):
Older types that will be retired soon include 747-400, A340-300 and 777-300.

The 777-200, you mean. 777-300s aren't going anywhere. Nothing in CX's fleet is capable of seating 398 pax on high demand regional routes such as HKG-TPE and HKG-SIN. Besides, CX's oldest 777-300 is only 13 years old, and its newest was delivered in 2006. They're nowhere near retirment age. Instead, it's fair to say that some of CX's older A330-300s will be retired alongside the 747-400, A340-300 and 777-200s. CX is already sending some of its early build A330-300s to KA, so those older planes are likely to be replaced by a new batch of 10 A330-300s that they've recently ordered.

Quoting oa412 (Reply 7):
That's all well and good, but airlines can't purchase aircraft based upon how good they'd look in their livery. At this point in time, CX has not ordered single-aisle aircraft because they don't have any need for them. If they did, they'd already be in CXs fleet.

  

I would love to see a CX 747-8i order, personally. Their livery would look fantastic on it (then again, so would any airline's livery). But it won't happen based on how good it will look, but whether it will work for the airline.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9102 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3820 times:

Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 13):

Great, doesn't answer my question of 787-10X as a CX 333 replacement.

From reply 8 "At the moment over 90 aircraft on order, combination of 747-8F, 77W, A333, A350. The 787 has been ruled out."

Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 13):
I don't know why CX's seats are so special that this is precluded, particularly when a 9-ABY 787 is more comfortable than a 10-ABR 777.

CX does not fly the 777 10 across, they have 9 across (3-3-3), again with wider seats for passenger comfort.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6603 posts, RR: 55
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3758 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 9):
Apart from the 744s which are slowly being retired. The first is currently being scrapped with another to follow towards the end of this year. The end-date for the 744s though is one that keeps changing depending on the economy and fuel prices.

The Chief Executive has said there is no plans to reduce the fleet until 2015 as they need the aircraft to retain landing slots in HKG. That is when the airport is projected to be fully saturated with slots.

I don't know, my friend in engineering says different. He even told me the frame to be retired although I forget the registration right now.


User currently offlineDornier328JET From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3707 times:

Quoting oa412 (Reply 7):
Sorry -- Shanghai and Beijing are international flights from HKG.

This is why I put domestic in quotes. To highlight that they shouldn't truly be called domestic routes, but to also show that I understand what the OP meant when saying domestic. Hong Kong and Macau are both SARs. They're effectively independent in several regards, save for defense.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines have a similar heritage and a similar geographical origin.

Both were founded soon after World War II, and both serve what are basically isolated islands. True those 'islands' are located partially on, or next to major landmasses, but politically - those were very small islands for many, many years.

Long haul service is where both airlines made their names, their reputations and the key to their survival.

Both evolved into wide-body only airlines - which meets the needs of their routes, their markets and their customers very well.

Both have met the challenge of routes suitable for non-wide body aircraft with a subsidiary airline of single aisle planes.

This allows them to profit from short range service from their home airports, yet retain the exclusive wide-body premium service levels their customers have come to expect on their name branded service.


User currently offlineflythere From Hong Kong, joined May 2010, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

Quoting goblin211 (Thread starter):
Bigger fleet than some airlines but didn't they want any 320s or 737s for domestic routes?

As mentioned by some others here, KA (a subsidiary 100% owned by CX) has 11 A320 and 6 A321, but that's all for Cathay Group, Cathay Group has 149 widebodies in total. If you as well consider the Air Hongkong (JV between CX 60% and DHL 40%), please add another 9 A300F and 744BCF into count.

The regional routes are primarily operated by the widebodies, and those long-haul aircrafts are also put in heavy use in regional hoops. Here is some idea told by former CX CEO Tony Tyler on Bloomberg.

Quote:
Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., Hong Kong’s biggest carrier, plans to boost operations in Asia with the “intelligent misuse” of long-haul aircraft rather than building up a fleet of single-aisle planes.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0....html
Quoting goblin211 (Thread starter):
757s maybe?

757 is already too outdated in this 21st century.

Quoting goblin211 (Thread starter):
I think I heard somewhere they've ordered the 350. Is this true, or was it the 787?

32 A359 on order, plus 30 option. No 787 so far.

Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 2):
Older types that will be retired soon include 747-400, A340-300 and 777-300

CX's 777-300 birds are still very young and they are doing great in transferring bulk of almost 400 pax in regional hoops.

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 5):
if you've never been to Hong Kong airport it's worth a visit. The sheers volume of heavies on the tarmac is quite a sight.

      Yes~ currently, 76% of flights at HKG are widebodies!

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 5):
DragonAir is a wholy owned subsidiary of Cathay that also does a lot of flying in the region. They do operate some A320/1's as well as A330's. It's possible that they cater to some of the routes where a slightly smaller aircraft might be needed.

well said. Those 17 A320/1 are only for initial start-up of regional routes and would turn into A333 services once demand pick up.

Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 10):
You would quite confidently say that CX would have no interest in the 787-10X if /when Boeing offers it, primarily as a 333 replacement?

Cannot rule out the possibility, but I would see A350 has more qualities to replace A333 than 787.

Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 13):
I don't know why CX's seats are so special that this is precluded, particularly when a 9-ABY 787 is more comfortable than a 10-ABR 777.

CX's Y seat on 777 is only 9 abreast.


User currently offlinegoblin211 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3065 times:

I have never been to China. I thought there were smaller airports like in the US, therefore, I thought they'd need single-aisle a/c for regional flights. I didn't know that they owned Dragonair or had any JVs. As for research, why? I already got the info I wanted w/o doing it. I never understand why a.net members don't say "look it up" or " you can find the information here". Nothing personal, I'm just making an observation. Thanks.


From the airport with love
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2993 times:

Quoting flythere (Reply 21):
Cannot rule out the possibility, but I would see A350 has more qualities to replace A333 than 787.

Why is that? The A350 is a heavier plane designed with longer and heavier missions in mind.

Of all of the aircraft currently planned or under serious consideration, the 787-10 comes closest to matching an A333 mission profile.

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
One of the reasons the 787 was ruled out is that the CX seats will not fit in the aircraft without modification, and the modification required to fit them would result in a seat that is narrower than what is offered in the other aircraft, and it is considered narrow enough that passengers would notice.

Does that include the 744? Boeing's generic seats and aisles are the same width at 10Y in the 744 and 9Y in the 787. Hard to see why there would be a noticeable difference in CX configuration.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 16):
777-300s aren't going anywhere. Nothing in CX's fleet is capable of seating 398 pax on high demand regional routes such as HKG-TPE and HKG-SIN. Besides, CX's oldest 777-300 is only 13 years old, and its newest was delivered in 2006.

The ideal replacement for the 777-300s would seem to be the A350-1000, starting sometime in the early 2020s.


User currently offlineQFA787380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2883 times:

Quoting flythere (Reply 21):
Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 13):
I don't know why CX's seats are so special that this is precluded, particularly when a 9-ABY 787 is more comfortable than a 10-ABR 777.

CX's Y seat on 777 is only 9 abreast.

My comment there was an industry general one and I know that CX operates 9-ABR 777s.

Quoting flythere (Reply 21):
Quoting QFA787380 (Reply 2):
Older types that will be retired soon include 747-400, A340-300 and 777-300

CX's 777-300 birds are still very young and they are doing great in transferring bulk of almost 400 pax in regional hoops.

They are not that young and my point was that the eventual fleet at the end of the decade, will comprise 333/359/77W and possibly up to 10 VLAs. 343/744/772/773 will be gone.


25 Viscount724 : Seven of CX's 12 773s are 12 to 13 years old. While not old, I wouldn't call them "very young". The other five are 5 to 8 years old.
26 flythere : 1) flight crew re-trainning cost 2) uniform fleet economies of scale 3) cathay uses a lot of long-haul aircrafts in the regional routes so I bet more
27 zeke : The population of the 250 biggest cities in the US would fit into the 9 biggest cities in China. China has a number of cities much larger than NYC. T
28 jfk777 : What would be the 2-class comparison of a CX A330-300 to a 2-class A350-900 ? Doubtful CX will fly 4 -class A350 regionally.
29 zeke : I would think it would be similar to the 772. I think they will.
30 worldliner : In the far east major cities may look close but are sometimes a long distance from one another. There really is no need for CX to have short haul airc
31 AirNZ : What 'domestic' routes are you referring to? Cathay Pacific are a LH carrier and always have been - they have Dragonair to perform the regional route
32 474218 : Why would CX lease two (2) A350-900's and aircraft that is years away form even flying?
33 flythere : These two aircrafts would be the first two to enter the CX fleet because CX wants them to enter the fleet asap and leasing from the aircraft leasing
34 jfk777 : HKG is in teh middle of SE Asia, 4 hours to Tokyo, 31/2 hours to Singapore, less then 3 hours to Bangkok, Manila, Taipei and so on. CX will have 2 ve
35 474218 : Then they are going to lease two (2) A350-900's. The way it is written make it sound like they are currently leasing two (2) A350-900's ("further two
36 Viscount724 : Sorry, that's totally incorrect. For many CX was a regional carrier with no routes longer than 3 or 4 hours. And even now CX has huge capacity on sho
37 CCA : It's more to do with slots in HK filling up fast and the challenge from HK Airlines who are expanding rapidly over the next few years.
38 dennys : Quoting CX77L I would love to see a CX 747-8i order, personally. Their livery would look fantastic on it (then again, so would any airline's livery).
39 mogandoCI : I think he's referring to the 777-300A non-ER edition. That plane only has engine thrusts in the 84-90K range. Replacing them with A350-1000 would be
40 flythere : Right, the regional ones are primarily stick to 333 and 773 and some long-haul crafts for the time being. There is no incentive for CX to bring in A3
41 CXB77L : I was, but I think the A350-1000, configured in two-class high density configuration, would make a great replacement for the 777-300 (non-ER). Thinki
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