MAV88 From United States of America, joined May 2011, 183 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2189 times:
I am curious if anyone can provide insight into potential, or feasible service out of MIA to Europe and the Middle East. I have read through several threads about one route that turns into a "MIA can handle this service" or "they should serve MIA." I am not sure if the people who say this have actual data to back up their assertions, or if they are fan boys who want MIA to get as much service as possible.
So I am wondering what cities people expect to be next for MIA?
I have heard people say that MIA could handle service to several cities, including:
727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5910 posts, RR: 18 Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2108 times:
Doesn't AA already serve MAN? There are those that think MIA can do no wrong, and if a route does not work, it is the fault of the airline, not the market itself. I am hoping for BMI or Open Skies to come.
Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
mah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31732 posts, RR: 73 Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2008 times:
Keep in mind that when a long-haul market gets non-stop service, the market stimulates significantly, especially in a holiday market. These are the traffic numbers without non-stops. If you add a non-stop, the traffic numbers will grow anywhere from 80 to 300% (the smaller the market, the larger it tends to grow). Miami-Lisbon, now served by TAP, is actually not a very large local market (its not even 30 PDEW). But with TAP now serving the market, it will likely grow to around 45-60 PDEW. Miami-Berlin has seen strong growth in the local market ever since Air Berlin entered. PDEW is "per day, each way" (so double the number for daily traffic).
All the below markets are larger than MIALIS:
MIAMAN is the third largest O&D city pairs between Manchester and the United States, after NYCMAN and ORLMAN. This market likely sees significant leakage to ORL.
MIADUB is not a particularly large local market, a little larger than MIALIS. However, this market likely leaks substantial traffic to Orlando, which has scheduled DUB service, and Aer Lingus Dublin hub is an excellent U.S.-Europe connection point.
MIAVIE is the third largest O&D city pair between Vienna and the United States, after NYCVIE and WASVIE (and it is barely smaller than WASVIE).
MIABUD is the second largest O&D city pair between Hungary and the United States after NYCBUD. It also has the advantage of connecting two important oneWorld hubs.
MIAHEL is one of the largest U.S.-EU city pairs not served non-stop, but Finnair has had on/off service to both MIA and FLL since 2003.
MIACPH is the second largest city pair between the United States and the EU without non-stop service.
MIAOSL is the second largest market between Norway and the United States.
MIATLV well over 100 PDEW and the second largest trans-Atlantic city pair without non-stop service after LAXIKA. Among Miami-Europe markets, only LON, PAR, MAD, ROM, FRA, MXP and ZRH are larger.
MIABRU is the fourth largest U.S.-Brussels market after NYC, LAX and WAS.
MIAWAW and MIASNN are the only Europe markets on that list smaller than MIALIS.
The Miami-Middle East local markets are not huge outside of Tel Aviv; but the scales of the hubs would make Doha and Dubai viable. Not to mention the local markets would see huge stimulation, just like Emirates has done everywhere else. Amman isn't a large Middle East hub, but it is a oneWorld hub and a good connecting point to MIA's key Middle East markets in the western Middle East.
Of course there is the factor that every new non-stop service takes away passengers from other flights from hubs, it's not all just going to be growth. And average fares to the Scandinavia markets in particular are low. Even with a large local market, airlines need to balance things. AA could easily fill a plane MIABRU, but at what cost to its ORDBRU and JFKBRU flights? Lufthansa Group would have no problem filling MIAVIE, but will it steal MIAFRA traffic? Will it cause it to have too many seats to Miami? SAS would easily fill MIACPH, but is SAS high cost structure good for a pure leisure market like MIACPH?
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7824 posts, RR: 8 Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1661 times:
Miami has in recent years grown its European service. For years the only two big Euro airlines in Miami were BA and IB, Lufthansa didn't arrive until the late 1970's. Air France didn't fly to Paris from Miami until about 1990, it did fly to the French Caribean from MIA long before that. Swissair & Alitalia arrived in teh late 1990's. KLM started about 2000 and discontinued their flights about 5 years ago and just restarted this year. TAP just started serving Miami, their second US city after Newark.
dean From Hungary, joined Apr 2005, 213 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1617 times:
Thanks for the details MAH4546!
MIA VIE or BUD would make sense. But as you also pointed out, Lufthansa Group would steal its own pax (MIA MUC and FRA), so why would they want that? Out of BUD there are only foreign operators which come in mind as MA don't have the aircraft to fly such a route. And having AA and DL serving BUD daily out of JFK I expect something to happen/added to the US -- BUD nonstop market.
worldliner From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 275 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1474 times:
Its a pity that MAN doesn't serve MIA. Although its safe to say that the only reason is so that BA doesn't have to cut one of the frequencies from LHR. So many people connect through LHR to the states and especially to Florida its madness that more airlines don't fly the routes.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6766 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1296 times:
Quoting MAV88 (Reply 10): Also, how large of a role does the Port of Miami play in passenger numbers to Europe? As in, does the large cruise port draw a lot of people from Europe?
It plays a pretty decent part. The Port of Miami and Port Everglades which is just 20miles north are the two largest Cruise Ship ports in the world. So plenty of people do fly down from Europe to go on these cruises. The airlines always try to get contracts from curise lines and tour operators etc..
Quoting worldliner (Reply 11): So many people connect through LHR to the states and especially to Florida its madness that more airlines don't fly the routes.
Well MIA has four airlines on MIA-LHR not sure who else would fly it. AA, BA, VS, DL
Quoting miaintl (Reply 12): Mark what is the potential of the Miami-Moscow market, how big is it? Is Aeroflot still interested in flying here?
Transaero is flying Miami-Moscow right now two weekly 744/
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 13): ThyTurkish use to fly to MIA as well as El Al. Perhaps both of these airlines will re-evaluate those routes in the future
El Al will come back once they have enough planes and also when Israel is no longer Cat 2 status by the FAA. They are not allowed to start any new flights into the US. MIA has been on and off due to not having the right aircraft it is a big market. As for TK lots of rumors and articles that they will come back to MIA and want to be back. But only time will tell. I see both routes coming at some point. Just do not know how long.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
directorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1626 posts, RR: 11 Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1274 times:
RJ flying AMM-MIA would be interesting. AMM is well situated for pax going to CAI, BEY, DAM, ALP and the Gulf, not to mention some possibly well-timed Indian connections. MIA is a big LatAm hub that can capture some VFR traffic-namely South Americans of Lebanese/Syrian/Palestinian descent. However, the market isn't very large, nor is it high-yielding, and you have the US visa issue, which would deter transit pax from flying through MIA instead of a comfortable 1-stop through CDG/FRA/AMS.
AA and RJ are conservative when it comes to longhaul expansion, and AA would probably do ORD-AMM before MIA-AMM. I see TK returning to MIA though.
As for EK/QR/EY....I'd say it's a matter of time before EK steps in.
FSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 687 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1262 times:
I would like to see AA move their ORD-HEL and JFK-BUD flights to MIA-HEL and MIA-BUD for the winter season. I believe both routes were planned to be summer seasonal, so by moving them to MIA for the winter AA would be able to keep those stations open year-round while still catching the seasonal traffic flows (I'm assuming the demand on HEL-MIA and BUD-MIA would be greater in the winter).
Anyone have any insight into whether or not this could work?
SEA SFO LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF LHR
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1251 posts, RR: 12 Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1254 times:
Quoting FSDan (Reply 17): HEL-MIA and BUD-MIA would be greater in the winte
I believe Finnair has operated HEL-FLL/MIA off on for the past decade. Some winters it runs, others it doesn't. So from that, I would have to think that the route is full of leisure traffic, thus making it a marginal route. Perhaps MAH can better provide the specifics of that route
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6766 posts, RR: 6 Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1138 times:
Quoting FSDan (Reply 17): I would like to see AA move their ORD-HEL and JFK-BUD flights to MIA-HEL and MIA-BUD for the winter season. I believe both routes were planned to be summer seasonal,
Interesting option. Thing is those aircraft are probably already on some other routes which are winter seasonal. AA needs some more planes that is one thing for sure. Their long haul fleet does not give much room for expansion.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)