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Hypothetical: Crash During A Ferry Flight  
User currently offlineatcstudent From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 12 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14355 times:

I just saw a picture of a ferry flight. Let's say Luftansa's first 747-8 crashes before it ever sets foot in Germany, Luftansa's loss or Boeing's?

(assuming this plane has left KPAE/KBFI for the last time

If this is a repeat thread, flame the sh*t out of me

[Edited 2011-06-11 00:11:56]

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7405 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14335 times:
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Boeing and their insurer assumes all responsibility for the aircraft until the aircraft is delivered. Should the aircraft be damaged beyond repair, then their insurer covers the the aircraft& and injuries/fatalities associated from the accident. Lufthansa, I assume then would receive some sort of compensation for the late delivery of the aircraft.


Made from jets!
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14302 times:

It depends on when the transfer legally occurs. I think that in some cases, the legal transfer of ownership is done in flight over a particular region (I can't remember where though) for tax purposes.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7403 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14313 times:

On March 3 1953, a D.H COMET 1 crashed shortly after take off from Karachi Airport.
The aircraft registered CF-CUN and named "Empress of Hawaii" was on its delivery flight to Canadian Pacific Air Lines.

The loss is counted for C.P.A.

Normally, a delivery flight is operated by the airline buyer ... when the plane takes off from the manufacturer's airfield, it belongs to the airline, not anymore to the manufacturer, so in your example the loss would be for LH.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 13793 times:
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That reminds me. Whatever happened to that EY A340-600 damaged in Toulouse? Was it replaced? Who was to blame for that incident?


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13436 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 4):
That reminds me. Whatever happened to that EY A340-600 damaged in Toulouse? Was it replaced? Who was to blame for that incident?

I know that it was replaced, and that Airbus (or rather, their insurance) picked up the tab. I don't know any specifics beyond that.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13042 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 13142 times:

It is also possible that special insurance cover is provided for delivery flights as several parties could 'own' or have money losses in such cases including the manufacturer, airline, leasing companies and others.

User currently offlineboeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1025 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 12851 times:

Quoting atcstudent (Thread starter):
I just saw a picture of a ferry flight. Let's say Luftansa's first 747-8 crashes before it ever sets foot in Germany, Luftansa's loss or Boeing's?

Interesting thing is the little commuter airline I worked at had something like this happen. When we where retiring our Jetstreams, we did all the retrun from lease inspections in San Luis Obispo and then the airplanes where being return and flown out to Kingman AZ. One of the airplanes N927AE had a little incident where it ran off the runway and twisted the wing and various other damage. The funny part was BAE and American Eagle pointing fingers on who was going to pay to repair the airplane. In the end BAE took the lose and paid to fix it, the pilots where American Eagle pilots, BUT the airplane was legally returned and BAE was now owner and operator of the airplane.

David



Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
User currently offlineborism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11587 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
It depends on when the transfer legally occurs. I think that in some cases, the legal transfer of ownership is done in flight over a particular region (I can't remember where though) for tax purposes.

Really? Crazier things are happening (like SU aircraft being registered in Bermuda), but I wouldn't think it happens very often in "normal" countries. I mean, usually this is true:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
Normally, a delivery flight is operated by the airline buyer ... when the plane takes off from the manufacturer's airfield, it belongs to the airline, not anymore to the manufacturer, so in your example the loss would be for LH.

But legal transaction occurring while overflying neutral or 3rd party's territory - I don't think it is even possible. Otherwise we would be signing all our contracts like this  

BTW, does anyone know if SU actually flies its' aircraft to Bermuda to register it there?


User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 631 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11505 times:

Quoting atcstudent (Thread starter):

We actually run a Ferry Company. An airplane is never an orphan. And in your hypothetical scenario Boeing
is the Manufacturer. The airplane WOULD have been DELIVERED to LH and either their crews or a hired crew
would be doing the ferry. Either way the aircraft must be insured for that repositioning flight.

In the event of a used airplane once the transaction closes the new owner provides the insurance for the
aircraft and subsequent operations including ferry flights.


User currently offlinemarky From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11281 times:

Quoting borism (Reply 8):
But legal transaction occurring while overflying neutral or 3rd party's territory - I don't think it is even possible.

It happens all the time! Boeing deliveries will often fly out over the Pacific so they are in international, rather than US airspace.

Especially recently, a lot of Airbus and ATR deliveries route over UK airspace on delivery for some kind of legal/financial transaction, even when it is in the opposite direction to where they are going. A number of Air Asia A320s have been delivered from Toulouse to Stansted and then back East to Kuala Lumpur. However, most don't land and just fly over the UK. I'm pretty sure the Korean A380 delivered recently did this, but there are plenty of others that do.

Not quite sure what happens on these flights - possibly legal transfer of title, either from the manufacturer to the operator or, morr likely, a sale/leaseback or mortgage deal by the operator with a finance company.

As xdlx has said, transfer from the manufacturer to the customer usually happens at the factory. The customer will accept the aircraft, title will transfer to the customer, who will then have to register the aircraftt in their own country, get airworthiness certification from their own authority, insure the aircraft etc. before it departs on delivery.


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2989 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11175 times:

Quoting xdlx (Reply 9):
We actually run a Ferry Company. An airplane is never an orphan. And in your hypothetical scenario Boeing
is the Manufacturer. The airplane WOULD have been DELIVERED to LH and either their crews or a hired crew
would be doing the ferry. Either way the aircraft must be insured for that repositioning flight.


I think insurance certificate would be a must for a Ferry Company whether it was supplied by seller, ferry company or buyer.
As far as aircraft manufacturers you can rest assured that they are protected until transfer of ownership, they are usually about 10 steps ahead of speculation and would guess that is spelled out in the contract as well.

Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 7):
In the end BAE took the lose and paid to fix it, the pilots where American Eagle pilots, BUT the airplane was legally returned and BAE was now owner and operator of the airplane


That is the clue, the ownership of the aircraft would be the insurance holder unless some other arrangements were made with the leaser. Not being privy to the contract we do not know how the ferry after the accepted return was handled.

Now after all that there is no telling what happens in some parts of the world with transfer of aircraft or if they even have insurance for operations since there is little or no aviation authority in those countries to speak of and even then there may not be insurance companies that would even take on the risk.

Okie


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9511 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10581 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
It depends on when the transfer legally occurs. I think that in some cases, the legal transfer of ownership is done in flight over a particular region (I can't remember where though) for tax purposes.

The transfer of ownership is when it goes from the production certificate to the operators certificate. The process typically is that Boeing or Airbus builds a plane. They do at least one flight test (usually are multiple segment flights with multiple landings) for system verification. Then the customer gets to inspect the airplane and depending on the airline have their pilots in the flight deck or not do another inspection flight. After this the airplane goes through what is called "ticketing". This is the process where all the production documentation and certification requirements are complete and the airplane is transferred to the airline. For Boeing this happens at Boeing Field for 737s and Everett for the widebodies. After all the documents are filed with the required regulatory authorities, the airplane is now operated by airline.

Once the certificate has been changed from the Boeing production certificate to an airline operator's certificate the rules change greatly on how the airplane can be operated. It all has to do with type certificates and for US operators you can read it under the FARs.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 6):
It is also possible that special insurance cover is provided for delivery flights as several parties could 'own' or have money losses in such cases including the manufacturer, airline, leasing companies and others.

Delivery flights are almost always operated by the airline. They will send their pilots to Seattle or Toulouse. I'm not sure about what happens for the smaller airplanes since some of their delivery flights might be more complex and beyond the scope of what the operating airline's pilot operations cover.

The delivery flight is almost always a ferry flight operated by the airline. Here's some examples:

Xiamen Airlines ferrying a 737 over to China via HNL:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CXA5605

American Airlines ferrying a 737 to DFW
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL9701

Korean Air 777 to ICN
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/KAL28D



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10461 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
when the plane takes off from the manufacturer's airfield, it belongs to the airline, not anymore to the manufacturer

That is not quite precise. Legally, the moment of alienation is reached when the bank confirms the money's been transferred. Then, the contract is signed and the ownership demises to the airline. Concurrent performance, is the name of this practice.

And I'm not quite sure what these magical flights are supposed to be all about. I'm not an expert on tax laws, but I have never heard of any such practices and would be more than surprised if there was truth to them. Even if you were to sign the contract over international waters, you'd eventually have to enter your own air space again at which point you'd have to pay customs on the good anyway. I doubt an A380s fall within one's duty free allowance..  

So to answer the question.. unless I'm missing a loop hole practice, the ferry flight, just as test flights and positioning flights, falls within LH's area of risk. They also fly with LH pilots, with a German registration in LH's name under a German, Lufthansa call sign. I doubt any other insurance would willingly claim liability over an airplane that is registered under a different, final insurance certificate.

[Edited 2011-06-11 09:56:32]


..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10163 times:

Quoting marky (Reply 10):
A number of Air Asia A320s have been delivered from Toulouse to Stansted and then back East to Kuala Lumpur. However, most don't land and just fly over the UK.

That is not true. Their flightplans are filed TLS-STN-SHJ-KUL and they couldn't make TLS-SHJ without an additional fuel stop if they went up to STN for a low approach only. And only Air Asia does that, by the way, who parenthetically run operations at STN.

No other airline does that. Vietnam Airlines go through Baku, Cebu Pacific, Air Phil Express and SilkAir also go through SHJ and the Chinese deliveries all go through Novosibirsk. American deliveries go through Keflavik, Spanish speaking South American ones normally through Gran Canaria and TAM through the Capverdian Islands (Portuguese).

I'm not (yet) aware of the reason for Air Asia's STN stops, but if it had any contractual or legal background, all airlines would do it. The fact that they also serve STN makes it even more obvious that there must be another reason. Maybe they're ferrying crews and other employees back to their own non stop flight and will use Orly now that they serve it?



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24893 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10141 times:

All Boeing deliveries happen at the Boeing Delivery Center in Seattle.
http://www.seattlepi.com/default/art...ick-up-planes-in-style-1216409.php
Customers fly the aircraft away with their crews. Boeing does not deliver planes to customers doors.

For the comments about actually legal transfer of the aircraft to operator this often happens inflight over international waters off the Canadian BC coast when documents are signed and monies transferred over to Boeing for taxation reasons a day or two prior to the ferry flight home.

But as far a the OPer question specifically, it would be a Lufthansa crew flying a Lufthansa owned or leased aircraft. Boeing did their job, and got its money already.

[Edited 2011-06-11 10:23:04]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9993 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
For the comments about actually legal transfer of the aircraft to operator this often happens inflight over international waters off the Canadian BC coast when documents are signed and monies transferred over to Boeing for taxation reasons a day or two prior to the ferry flight home.

That's not how it works at Airbus XFW. The airline wires the money, Airbus calls their bank, the transfer is confirmed, the papers are signed, champagne is served. That's the protocol.

Delivery flights don't go out of their way either.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24893 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9857 times:

Err.... This discussion and OPer question was about Boeing, not Airbus.....

And no the delivery flight does not go out of the way. The money and transfer of title is usually handled a day or two prior to the ferry flight as part of the operators acceptance test flight(s) in Seattle.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineqblue From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9221 times:

Just by chance I saw 5 green 737 land at YVR one by one and an hour later 2more green and one GOL 737 land. I was told it was for transfer of ownership or to avoid the state sale tax. I have not seen this again. I think they now fly to Abottsford to do this..

User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9129 times:

This happened also to Braniff, 1 day before the jet was supposed to be delivered. Evidently 2 Boeing pilots and 2 Braniff pilots were in Seattle undergoing a shakedown flight for one of Braniff's 4 new "El Dorado" 707s when they either stalled or dutch rolled themselves into a dangerous attitude causing 2 or 3 of the engines to be ripped from the wing. The plane crashed with 2 survivors, all on Boeing's nickel.


"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3402 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8708 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
All Boeing deliveries happen at the Boeing Delivery Center in Seattle.
http://www.seattlepi.com/default/art...ick-up-planes-in-style-1216409.php
Customers fly the aircraft away with their crews. Boeing does not deliver planes to customers doors.


contrary to the article, some customers request and receive remote delivery... the papers may be transfered at Paine or BFI, however they may stipulate the actual transfer will occur at the international dateline crossing... occasionally Boeing delivers to the home terminal .

Re: SU they are registered in the Bahamas to avoid an inport tax levied against Western aircraft.

Of note, I worked with a guy who had just hired on to Boeing and happened to be out on the BFI flightline when Howard Hughes arrived to pick up some 707's and just handed him a check....


User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1182 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8131 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
All Boeing deliveries happen at the Boeing Delivery Center in Seattle.
http://www.seattlepi.com/default/art...ick-up-planes-in-style-1216409.php
Customers fly the aircraft away with their crews. Boeing does not deliver planes to customers doors.

Right! The airline takes responsibility for the plane already in Seattle with its own crews (sometimes an instructor is included for new operators of a type). The plane is insured by the airline and operated within the airline AOC most of the time... So if anything happens its to be sorted out by the airline like on any other flight with that airline.



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8117 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 20):
I worked with a guy who had just hired on to Boeing and happened to be out on the BFI flightline when Howard Hughes arrived to pick up some 707's and just handed him a check....

Those were the days. Of course Northwest was known for paying cash for planes up until a few decades ago, so there may have been a few hefty checks tossed around back then, unless they just used wire transfers.

Reminds me of a story from years ago where a youngish man walked into the Learjet offices and said he wanted to buy a plane. When asked he said he washed cars for a living which made the receptionist skeptical about his ability to afford a Learjet, to which he replied "I wash a lot of cars."



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8095 times:

Didn't Braniff dump a 707 in late 59 on a delivery? I read a Braniff crew was at the controls and there was some survivors.
N7071..................
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineborism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 7904 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
Err.... This discussion and OPer question was about Boeing, not Airbus.....

Actually OP asked purely theoretical question and complemented it with B747-8i example (so obviously Boeing-LH deal).

I think actually this delivery topic is quite interesting and if anyone has any proof of these international waters delivery flights you're welcome to provide it, otherwise it looks a lot like groundless conspiracy theory.

Somehow I still don't think I can sign valid contracts in any jurisdiction I want just by overflying it.


25 Post contains links and images noelg : There have been a number aircraft crash on delivery flights. I know it wasn't specifically a delivery flight (it was a handover flight I believe), but
26 BMI727 : Sure you can. I've heard of weddings performed aloft that have had to restrict themselves to a certain area where the officiant is allowed to perform
27 Navigator : Well now that is not the case nowadays in most cases. Planes are often leased or owned by other than the airline itself. Even if it is not a lease as
28 Post contains images supersomondoco : As simple as this: In international trade, this is called Ex Works (Incoterms 2010: EXW). This means that the manufacturer delivers the good to the b
29 EXMEMWIDGET : Didn't Pinnacle crash a CRJ on a ferry flight a few years back? I don't think it was a delivery flight, but it was a ferry I do believe.
30 Post contains links jetjack74 : It crashed in Arlington, WA which is about 60 miles north of Seattle: "On October 19, 1959, a Boeing 707-227 crashed northeast of Arlington, Washingt
31 Post contains links Viscount724 : A Swissair Convair 440 crashed at SNN in 1956 on its delivery flight (arriving from Gander), killing the 4 crew. http://aviation-safety.net/database/r
32 SJC4Me : Sorry for the non-contributing post, but that cracked me up.
33 mrskyguy : Thanks for the fact correction! I recall it being a bizarre, unfortunate incident for both Boeing and Braniff. Do you recall what led to the flight u
34 Post contains links brons2 : The Aviation-Safety.net database lists the 707-227's operator as Boeing: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19591019-0
35 marky : Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - only Air Asia have had deliveries via STN, but many other Airbus deliveries are taking place via UK airspace, aw
36 Post contains links marky : Some recent examples of Airbus deliveries routing through the UK, off their route can be found here: http://www.civilianaviation.co.uk/forum/viewtopic
37 Speedbird128 : I'd hazard a guess that TLS-SHJ is shorter than STN-SHJ... so why the detour? I know for a fact that SA A340-600's had to be routed north through UK
38 Post contains images noelg :
39 noelg : Correct, IIRC wasn't this the one where the pilots were messing around taking the aircraft to some ridiculous altitude, then wondering why it all wen
40 Post contains images Speedbird128 : Sorry. I was obviously not awake. hehehe
41 bravo1six : Transfer of title occasionally happens over international waters. It's entirely legitimate.
42 Post contains links flyingalex : Correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Airlines_Flight_3701
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