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US Airways Not Flying To GRU Until Winter 2012/13  
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5585 times:

US Airways applied before the DOT to make their CLT-GRU frequencies leased from United flexible to be used in any US-Brazil market for which US holds underlying economic authority. Just like I had commented on other threads where the subject of US Airways flying to GRU popped up, US is trying in vain to obtain slots at GRU in the same time frames as other US carriers.

I mentioned before on the following thread that the only time frames available at GRU were:

Arrivals
00:15 to 04:00
12:30 to 16:00

Departures
01:30 to 03:00
05:00 to 06:00
13:30 to 16:30

Source: Delta/US Airways Announce Revised LGA/DCA Deal (by panamair May 23 2011 in Civil Aviation)

Apparently, they are starting to be creative like Delta. They would like to start using the GRU-eligible frequencies to GIG, but not as a second daily service. It's not mentioned what they intend to do with their current GIG-frequencies apart from an evasive footnote.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(...)
US Airways now requests, to the extent necessary, that the Department amend its August 2, 2010, Notice of Action Taken, to grant US Airways flexibility to commence service with the seven unrestricted frequencies in any US-Brazil market for which US Airways holds underlying economic authority. This will enable US Airways to commence service with the seven unrestricted frequencies in the Charlotte-Rio de Janeiro market, in accordance with DOT's July 11, 2011, startup date.*
(...)
*Footnote: US Airways is not adding a secend daily flight in the CLT-GIG market; however US Airways would gain
substantial flexibility to provide an amount of service that matches market demand.
(...)
US Airways has made substantial efforts to obtain the necessary Brazilian government approvals to commence service to Sao Paulo. However, a Iack of aircraft parking spaces, combined with GRU airport construction planned for late-2011/early-2012 has made it impossible for US Airways to commence Sao Paulo service before Winter 2012. To resolve these infrastructure issues, US Airways has worked with the GRU airport administration to achieve a solution that enables US Airways to commence Charlotte-Sao Paulo service in Winter 2012.
(...)
Source: airlineinfo.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In reality, it's obvious that US Airways will either return the current GIG-frequencies to the DOT or let them go dormant. The only way they would keep the frequencies is if they applied for seasonal flexibility and started flying double daily to GIG in the peak season just in order not to let them go dormant, but that's highly unlikely. Since there are enough GIG-eligible frequencies to fund future US service to Brazil apart from GRU, there is really no need to keep the current frequencies. Though I must say that it would be wiser to keep the leased frequencies from United just for limited time. US Airways should request the DOT to ask the Brazilian government if their frequencies could become GRU-eligible in 2012. US Airways' current frequencies are GRU-eligible once the regulatory constraints are lifted, so it would be less burdening using them instead of UA's leased frequencies, though I don't know if it would cost them anything to return the frequencies to United in advance.

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3036 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5462 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
Winter 2012

Would this mean Janurary/Feburary 2012 or December 2012?



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5434 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 1):
Would this mean Janurary/Feburary 2012 or December 2012?

When a season is mentioned, it usually refers to the IATA season. The motion from the US Airways is clear in describing that it's IATA Winter 2012/13:

Quote:
However, a Iack of aircraft parking spaces, combined with GRU airport construction planned for late-2011/early-2012 has made it impossible for US Airways to commence Sao Paulo service before Winter 2012. To resolve these infrastructure issues, US Airways has worked with the GRU airport administration to achieve a solution that enables US Airways to commence Charlotte-Sao Paulo service in Winter 2012.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4764 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
In reality, it's obvious that US Airways will either return the current GIG-frequencies to the DOT or let them go dormant. The only way they would keep the frequencies is if they applied for seasonal flexibility and started flying double daily to GIG in the peak season just in order not to let them go dormant, but that's highly unlikely. Since there are enough GIG-eligible frequencies to fund future US service to Brazil apart from GRU, there is really no need to keep the current frequencies. Though I must say that it would be wiser to keep the leased frequencies from United just for limited time. US Airways should request the DOT to ask the Brazilian government if their frequencies could become GRU-eligible in 2012. US Airways' current frequencies are GRU-eligible once the regulatory constraints are lifted, so it would be less burdening using them instead of UA's leased frequencies, though I don't know if it would cost them anything to return the frequencies to United in advance

We can see the flight becoming 10x weekly during peak season using the frequencies, but i doubt. What US could try is to fly CLT-GIG-GRU-GIG-CLT as the slots available would make it possible. Something like:

CLT 2330 GIG 1220 1340 GRU 1430 1630 GIG 1730 1930 CLT 0750



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3036 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4680 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 3):
What US could try is to fly CLT-GIG-GRU-GIG-CLT as the slots available would make it possible. Something like:

CLT 2330 GIG 1220 1340 GRU 1430 1630 GIG 1730 1930 CLT 0750

Thats my thinking on it.

Its says US won't go double daily on GIG. Could they go double daily in Winter, say Carnaval?



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4286 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
The only way they would keep the frequencies is if they applied for seasonal flexibility and started flying double daily to GIG in the peak season just in order not to let them go dormant, but that's highly unlikely.
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 4):
Its says US won't go double daily on GIG. Could they go double daily in Winter, say Carnaval?

That's what I meant when I said peak season, but the real peak season is the Brazilian schools summer break.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3947 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 4):
Thats my thinking on it.

Its says US won't go double daily on GIG. Could they go double daily in Winter, say Carnaval?

What they could do in my view:


2x daily - during July 15-July 30
10x weekly (Friday/Saturday/Sunday) - August
2x daily - week of November 15
10x weekly (December 1-15)
2x daily (December 15-January 31)
10x weekly (February)



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3036 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3267 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
2x daily - during July 15-July 30
10x weekly (Friday/Saturday/Sunday) - August
2x daily - week of November 15
10x weekly (December 1-15)
2x daily (December 15-January 31)
10x weekly (February)

That's actually pretty smart. And on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays, the flight usually goes out full if not oversold. So it would make sense to add a second daily flight here. Maybe with an earlier flight time.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3112 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 7):
That's actually pretty smart. And on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays, the flight usually goes out full if not oversold. So it would make sense to add a second daily flight here. Maybe with an earlier flight time.

Correct. They can apply for an early night departure to offer early morning arrival and late night departure for late morning arrival. The best is that, US wouldn't need to apply for anything. They would use the 14 frequencies wisely. Next year they can just need to check Carnaval, the peak IATA summer season, and potential holidays to use the frequencies without dormancy or risk to lose them.
The question is that, do they have spare equipment ? If not a daylight on weekends could be a good alternative.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3036 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3087 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 8):
The question is that, do they have spare equipment ? If not a daylight on weekends could be a good alternative.

Thats a good question. Most of the B767s doing seasonal European flights will shift to Caribbean/Florida runs in the Winter.

A daylight is another great idea. Most of the passengers flying to GIG are tourists or those visiting relatives, so they don't care whether the flight is during the day or evening. I think business travelers are the only ones that prefer a red eye to South America.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2773 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
Apparently, they are starting to be creative like Delta. They would like to start using the GRU-eligible frequencies to GIG, but not as a second daily service. It's not mentioned what they intend to do with their current GIG-frequencies apart from an evasive footnote.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 3):
We can see the flight becoming 10x weekly during peak season using the frequencies, but i doubt. What US could try is to fly CLT-GIG-GRU-GIG-CLT as the slots available would make it possible. Something like

In all reality, they will likely toggle the two sets of frequencies from becoming dormant if they really need to, or make use of it during the peak winter holiday periods like you suggest (rather unlikely though, IMO). Let's not forget that when these frequencies were last "used" by UA, they sat dormant for 330+ days a year, so I'm not sure why there is the sudden outrage at US especially given the obvious problems they encountered at GRU. Furthermore, there are still unallocated US-Brazil frequencies as a result of the Open Skies agreement, albeit not GRU ones. Still, an incumbent is going to have a tough time making an argument to the DOT that they should strip the tiniest carrier of its frequencies when US will be able to detail the problems it has encountered.

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
I mentioned before on the following thread that the only time frames available at GRU were:

Arrivals
00:15 to 04:00
12:30 to 16:00

Departures
01:30 to 03:00
05:00 to 06:00
13:30 to 16:30

And as I've mentioned previously, these are horrendous slot times and the DOT will have ZERO problem understanding that. The last arrival/departure times you have listed would necessitate a departure/arrival at CLT an egregious hour (read: 1am) where there would be no viable connection opportunities. The other flights would require a daytime flight to/from GRU which is so popular that only ONE such example exists, and that is to the largest local market. I don't fault US in the least for not wanting to do that.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2742 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 9):
Thats a good question. Most of the B767s doing seasonal European flights will shift to Caribbean/Florida runs in the Winter.
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 9):
A daylight is another great idea. Most of the passengers flying to GIG are tourists or those visiting relatives, so they don't care whether the flight is during the day or evening. I think business travelers are the only ones that prefer a red eye to South America.


Increasing the use of aircraft they can for sure deal with discounted tickets to fill a potential daylight on weekends.
However be in mind this flight become an option for business travellers also.

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 10):
In all reality, they will likely toggle the two sets of frequencies from becoming dormant if they really need to, or make use of it during the peak winter holiday periods like you suggest (rather unlikely though, IMO). Let's not forget that when these frequencies were last "used" by UA, they sat dormant for 330+ days a year, so I'm not sure why there is the sudden outrage at US especially given the obvious problems they encountered at GRU. Furthermore, there are still unallocated US-Brazil frequencies as a result of the Open Skies agreement, albeit not GRU ones. Still, an incumbent is going to have a tough time making an argument to the DOT that they should strip the tiniest carrier of its frequencies when US will be able to detail the problems it has encountered.

I agree with you, there's no reason for the DOT not to allow it, and if not, US could return the GIG frequencies and request them again for 2013, if they decide not to try a 2x daily or 9x/10x weekly.
All they need to do is to use during 1 week every 6 months (march and september) considering the high season allows 2x daily without problems. Not a problem giving holidays such as Carnaval.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2742 times:

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 10):
In all reality, they will likely toggle the two sets of frequencies from becoming dormant if they really need to

If that were possible, every airline would do the same.

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 10):
Let's not forget that when these frequencies were last "used" by UA, they sat dormant for 330+ days a year, so I'm not sure why there is the sudden outrage at US especially given the obvious problems they encountered at GRU.

I did not forget. Those frequencies were inherited by United with no dormancy conditions, so they had the luxury of doing just that. That does not apply to to US Airways, nor will apply to United anymore once they revert back to them. Let me remind you of an excerpt of DOT Order 2002-2-2:

Finally, with respect to United's former Pan Am frequencies, Order 2001-11-15 applies only to limited-entry authorities that are subject to the Department' s standard dormancy condition. The majority of United's allocated Brazil frequencies were, indeed, "grandfathered" and are not subject to our standard dormancy condition.

[Edited 2011-06-13 20:59:28]

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2399 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
US Airways applied before the DOT to make their CLT-GRU frequencies leased from United flexible to be used in any US-Brazil market for which US holds underlying economic authority.

The motion has been approved!

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2010-0183-0008

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2010-0183-0009

No US at GRU for at least three more seasons...


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