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Kansas City Municipal Question  
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5211 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2832 times:

I remember as a kid in the 1960s flying into MKC from ORD on TWA 707s and 727s. Knowing that the main runway is around 6,800 feet long, where did TWA fly the 707 out of MKC, besides ORD. I'm assuming that anything beyond 500 or so statute miles probably had a weight restriction, due to the length of the runway.

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3125 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2771 times:

CO schedule from 1971 here, doesn't mention aircraft type (maybe someone with an OAG can). http://www.departedflights.com/CO103171p16.html . There was a LAX-MKC-ORD route on CO that used a 707. This CO 707 accident report (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19650701-0) mentions a flight from LAX-MKC-ORD (Crash, non-fatal, was due to wet runway, not lack of lift).

Here's another CO 707 at MKC, http://www.airlinefan.com/airline-ph...nental-Airlines/Boeing/720/N57203/ , mentions "absurdly short runway.

Anyhow, there might have been some weight restriction, but 707s (and other aircraft) of that time would not have been as jam packed with seats as today's aircraft, and 707 would not have needed entirely full tanks to get to ORD, LAX, or NYC.

I believe 707s were also in and out of LGA, DCA, MDW with similar sized runways.

-Rampart


User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2724 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 1):
I believe 707s were also in and out of LGA, DCA, MDW with similar sized runways.

I know that AA used to fly 707s on LGA-ORD in the early 1970s. I don't think 707s ever went into DCA. If, for some reason Runway 1-19 (roughly 6800 feet) was closed, I'm not sure Runway 15-33 (about 5200 feet) was long enough, either for take-offs or landings.

I know that 707s never used MDW. The two longest runways are roughly 6,525 and 6,450. With the close proximity of streets, houses, and other structures, I don't think it was ever deemed safe to put a 707 into MDW.


User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2432 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2700 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 1):
I believe 707s were also in and out of LGA, DCA, MDW with similar sized runways.

I have never heard of 707's operating into MDW or DCA. The only time a 707 flew into DCA was one special Pan Am 707 departure from DCA in October 1958, a few days before the 707's inaugural scheduled flight from JFK (then IDL) to Paris.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,937666,00.html



Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3125 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2684 times:

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 3):
have never heard of 707's operating into MDW or DCA.
Quoting ckfred (Reply 2):
I know that 707s never used MDW.

Thanks, I stand corrected. I had heard about the PA 707 christening, but didn't know that was the only "service".

-Rampart


User currently offlinen5014k From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2604 times:

I have an OAG from Nov. 1, 1966.

Here are nonstop flights to MKC:

TW 880 from ABQ
TW 707 from ABQ
UA 727 from BAL (now BWI)
CO 707 from ORD (2x)
TW 707 from ORD (2x)
TW 880 from ORD (3x)
TW 727 from ORD (2x)
CO 707 from DEN
UA 727 from DEN (2x)
FL 727 from LNK
TW 880 from LAX (2x)
TW 727 from LAX
CO 707 from LAX (2x)
TW 707 from LAX
BN 720 from MSP
TW 707 from JFK
UA 727 from LGA
TW 727 from EWR
TW 707 from EWR
TW 727 from PHX
TW 880 from STL
TW 707 from STL (5x)
TW 727 from STL (4x)
TW 707 from SFO
TW 727 from ICT (2x)

It is possible some of the flights Iisted as 707 may be 720's. BN used a lot of BAC-111 equipment and TW and OZ both used DC-9's as well.


User currently offlineCWAFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 669 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

Quoting n5014k (Reply 5):
It is possible some of the flights Iisted as 707 may be 720's. BN used a lot of BAC-111 equipment and TW and OZ both used DC-9's as well.

TWA returned the 720's by fall of 1962. They only operated them for a very short time while waiting for turbine 707's. They did operate the 720's to and from MKC though.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25109 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2488 times:

Quoting ckfred (Reply 2):
I know that AA used to fly 707s on LGA-ORD in the early 1970s


I can't recall 4-engine jets ever operating from LGA, at least not on scheduled flights.


Quoting ckfred (Thread starter):
I remember as a kid in the 1960s flying into MKC from ORD on TWA 707s and 727s.


Nonstop TWA destinations from MKC operated by jets in a couple of early 1960s TWA timetables:

August 1962:
707 - ORD
720B - LAX, STL, JFK
Convair 880 - STL, ORD, ABQ, PHX, LAX

TWA only operated 4 720Bs leased from NW (although delivered new to TW) for a year from mid-1961 to late summer 1962.

June 1964:
707 - ORD, STL, ABQ, PHX, LAX
727 - STL, JFK
Convair 880 - STL, ORD

TW's first 727-100 had only been delivered in late April 1964. By June they had 5 in service.

[Edited 2011-06-13 17:22:56]

User currently offlineTSRA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2262 times:

MKC's runway 1/19 was around 7100 feet until they added the EMAS beds on both ends of the runway. Even at 6827 feet that the runway is today, MKC sees on an almost regular basis 738, 757, 319, 320, and a wide verity of large military cargo planes that easily fly to each coast without issue. Now It wasn't the takeoff that scared pilots back in the day, it was the approach in bad weather.

User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2223 times:

Quoting TSRA (Reply 8):
Now It wasn't the takeoff that scared pilots back in the day, it was the approach in bad weather.

Yes but the pax usually could not see enough to get worried whereas taking off towards the city on a sunny day left you wondering if they would make it over the skyline.


User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
I can't recall 4-engine jets ever operating from LGA, at least not on scheduled flights.

IIRC, didn't the Port Authority undertake work in the early 1970s to lengthen the runways at LGA, so that the DC-10 and the L-1011 could operate on routes, such as LGA-ORD and LGA-ATL? One would assume that a runway capable of handling widebodies could also handle 707s.

It just seems to me that I recall seeing AA 707s parked at ORD, and the boards for the gate showed LGA departures.


Quoting TSRA (Reply 8):
Now It wasn't the takeoff that scared pilots back in the day, it was the approach in bad weather.

Flying into MKC used to scare my mother, and she wasn't a nervous flyer. She just knew that landing short meant landing in the river, and landing long also meant possibly ending up in the river.


User currently offlineGolfBravoRomeo From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2111 times:

Quoting TSRA (Reply 8):
It wasn't the takeoff that scared pilots back in the day, it was the approach in bad weather.

I remember reading a Barry Shiff article about MKC. IIRC he wrote about how in the 707 era it was fairly common to shoot the ILS 19 and circle to land 1. He noted that later in his career an approach like that was rarely (or maybe even never) executed.


User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4974 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2045 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Yes but the pax usually could not see enough to get worried whereas taking off towards the city on a sunny day left you wondering if they would make it over the skyline.

If you were headed towards the skyline usually you made a pretty steep right turn a few seconds after lift off. Breath taking take offs!



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25109 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1995 times:

Quoting ckfred (Reply 10):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
I can't recall 4-engine jets ever operating from LGA, at least not on scheduled flights.

IIRC, didn't the Port Authority undertake work in the early 1970s to lengthen the runways at LGA, so that the DC-10 and the L-1011 could operate on routes, such as LGA-ORD and LGA-ATL? One would assume that a runway capable of handling widebodies could also handle 707s.

The DC-10 and L-1011 were specifically designed to be able to use LGA. The A300 also operated at LGA. However I'm fairly sure that 707s, DC-8s and Convair 880/990s never used LGA. There are no A.net photos of any of those types at LGA. I expect noise was also a factor as those aircraft were significantly louder than the DC-10 and L-1011.

[Edited 2011-06-14 15:18:06]

User currently offlineTan Flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1906 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1961 times:

Quoting TSRA (Reply 8):
Now It wasn't the takeoff that scared pilots back in the day, it was the approach in bad weather.

we have an older gentleman at our church that flew martin 404's and Connies for TWA into the early 60's. Being based for years at KC, he described the approach as the trickiest part in any type of foul weather. I asked him about the 707 performance there, and he said it made quite a few pilots white haired prematurely! He said most preferred the 727-100 at MKC after they came online.


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1916 times:

TWA started MKC-LAX nonstop in 1959 or 1960-- with 707-131s, in any case.

No one is going to find a timetable showing 707/DC8/880s into LGA.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25109 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1907 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 15):
TWA started MKC-LAX nonstop in 1959 or 1960-- with 707-131s, in any case.

And with Constellations around 1947.


User currently offlinemike96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1884 times:

I've seen a few charters done on 738s, A320s and some 757s going to places like Atlanta, Cleveland, New York, Phoenix and a few others. And with most of those charters being sports teams I dont know what kind've weight restrictions they have considering they are taking all the teams gear and equipment with them. As for TWA and other airlines from the 60s I'm not to sure about, but having MKC be a hub for TWA back in the day they obviously learned they needed a bigger airport when the jet era began. Thus moving to MCI then STL.

Here is one of my videos I shot of a DL 738 landing at MKC from ATL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yupjGRP5JeQ

And a UA A320 from Cleveland:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MDWbPUnups


User currently offlineCWAFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 669 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1857 times:

Quoting mike96 (Reply 17):
I've seen a few charters done on 738s, A320s and some 757s going to places like Atlanta, Cleveland, New York, Phoenix and a few others

Most of the baseball charters operate out of MKC since the stadium and hotels are closer than MCI.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1796 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 12):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Yes but the pax usually could not see enough to get worried whereas taking off towards the city on a sunny day left you wondering if they would make it over the skyline.

If you were headed towards the skyline usually you made a pretty steep right turn a few seconds after lift off. Breath taking take offs!

Maybe that happened a few times, but apparently not locked in my memory. What is locked in is heading for a couple of high buildings with a wire strung between them, cannot remember what it was, but enough to impress me.

But the funniest landing and take-off I had was in 1979 in a small Beechcraft rustled up at KCI during a strike to get us half way to St Louis. But first they needed to pick up someone at the old airport. So we landed and while taxiing (slowly), a rear door was opened and someone bundled in the back, the door was closed and off we went to Columbia. Very strange. It was a surreal day all round. In Columbia we awaited a DC3 which again arrived suddenly, we were bundled aboard and off to St Louis.


User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1701 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 15):
TWA started MKC-LAX nonstop in 1959 or 1960-- with 707-131s, in any case.


August of 1959......CO started MKC-LAX apx one week later then TWA.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
I can't recall 4-engine jets ever operating from LGA, at least not on scheduled flights.


No one sent the Boeing four-holers to LGA......880s', 990's or DC 8's either.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 12):
If you were headed towards the skyline usually you made a pretty steep right turn a few seconds after lift off. Breath taking take offs!


No, take offs toward the south took you over the river, the intercity Viaduct and the Bottoms area of K.C. East bound flights
turned toward the ENE after passing Liberty Memorial. The skyline was not a factor because of alignment with the runway.

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 6):
TWA returned the 720's by fall of 1962


These were B models and at least three went to NW.
No four holers into MDW. Why do you think ORD opened to airline traffic in the late 50's? Because of the four holer.

Quoting ckfred (Thread starter):


I understand on a hot humid summer day, the 707 water burners had weight restrictions due to runway length.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 1):
I believe 707s were also in and out of LGA, DCA, MDW with similar sized runways.

707's, DC-8's, 720's, CV-880's, and CV-990's were NEVER operated out of LGA, DCA, or MDW in scheduled service. A USAF VC-153B or C-135 brought back Robert F. Kennedy's body to LGA on a 707 after his death in Los Angeles in June of 1968 - New York">JFK. In 1958, a 707 was flown empty into DCA where First Lady Mamie Eisenhower "christened it" with a bottle of champagne. In 1968 or so, United ferried a DC-8-61 from ORD to MDW for an open house. There was an article in the Chicago Sun Times the day they did it with a picture and the article stated it was the largest aircraft to land at MDW up to that time.

As far as MKC, CO, TW, and BN operated 707's in and out of MKC beginning with CO in 1959 until airline passenger operations were transferred to MCI in 1971 or 1972. BN flew to DAL, MSP, and ORD. CO had flights to DEN, ORD, and LAX. TW flew to LAX, SFO, ORD, and JFK. A 1962 January 15th OAG shows TW operating two flights daily to IDL with the leased B-720-051's; a flight to PHX with an 880, a BN 720 to MSP; a CO 707-124 (water wagon), a TW 880, and a TW 720B to LAX; 2 TWA 707's, 2 TW 880's, and CO 707 to ORD; a UA 720 to BAL and DEN (no local traffic unless passenger connecting to a flight with a UA destination even if on another carrier) and a BN 720 to DAL.

The CO accident took place landing on a wet runway. While the runways were short and the four engine operations were marginal, they took place every day. But as I said above, MDW, DCA, and LGA NEVER had scheduled four engine jet operations (except the BAE 146 but I am referring to the early jets).

I don't think MKC ever had TW 747 service.

[Edited 2011-06-15 08:17:09]

A further check of a June 1968 OAG shows that BN operated a 707-327C, MKC-DAL; and that TW flew both non fan 707's, either 707-131's or 707-331's from MKC to LAX and a 707-131B to SFO from MKC. By that time, all NYC flights were operated with 727's.


[Edited 2011-06-15 08:36:56]

User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1687 times:

Quoting ckfred (Reply 2):
I know that AA used to fly 707s on LGA-ORD in the early 1970s. I don't think 707s ever went into DCA. If, for some reason Runway 1-19 (roughly 6800 feet) was closed, I'm not sure Runway 15-33 (about 5200 feet) was long enough, either for take-offs or landings.

I know that 707s never used MDW. The two longest runways are roughly 6,525 and 6,450. With the close proximity of streets, houses, and other structures, I don't think it was ever deemed safe to put a 707 into MDW.

You know? You think you "know" but you don't!. AA operated 727-023's, 727-223's, and DC-10-10's between ORD and LGA in the early 70's with the DC-10's beginning in November or December of 1971. My first trip on the Ten was on this route shortly before Christmas that year. American Airlines NEVER operated 707's in scheduled service to LGA.


User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1682 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
I can't recall 4-engine jets ever operating from LGA, at least not on scheduled flights.

They didn't. The poster is mistaken.


User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1664 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
The DC-10 and L-1011 were specifically designed to be able to use LGA. The A300 also operated at LGA. However I'm fairly sure that 707s, DC-8s and Convair 880/990s never used LGA. There are no A.net photos of any of those types at LGA. I expect noise was also a factor as those aircraft were significantly louder than the DC-10 and L-1011.

Prior to 1964, when the new terminal at LGA opened, and the 727 introduced jet service to LGA, the runway extensions out into Flushing Bay had not been built. Viscount, you are absolutely correct. The only jets scheduled into LGA before the DC-10 were 727's, DC-9's, 737's, and BAC-111's. UA never scheduled Caravelle's into LGA either but just prior to my moving from NYC back to the Quad Cities in June of 1964, I spent a day on a friend's sailboat and we went from City Island in the Bronx where they kept the boat to the marina on the east side of 13-31 and while moored there during Memorial Day weekend, May 30, 1964 or so, I saw a United Caravelle take off heading south toward Shea Stadium. On June 1, 1964, the first 727 scheduled flights took place, and three days later, my dad and I flew from LGA to ORD on a UA 727.


25 RJNUT : Kansas City didnt have Caravelle service either, but the Cincinnati Bengals charted one and my dad and I went down to take a look. I do remember my p
26 CWAFlyer : [ I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I never specified what engined variant of 720 TWA operated or said anything about MDW or ORD. I'm
27 txagkuwait : The thing I recall about MKC wasn't the runways, or the fact that it was hemmed in to a bend in the Missouri River. What I remember is just how LOOOOO
28 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : It wasn't champagne. They used water from the seven seas. I think that was a tradition on earlier Pan Am types, several of which were also christened
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