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KL Considering The A380?!  
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1607 posts, RR: 7
Posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24779 times:

I know this is a question that has been asked before, also I know it is starting to resemble a beaten to death horse. But today my eye fell on a small news item in the Dutch "quality" tabbloid De Telegraaf;

http://www.telegraaf.nl/reiskrant/10...M_denkt_in_het_groot__.html?p=14,2

Terwijl Malaysia Airlines volgend jaar waarschijnlijk de eerste luchtvaartmaatschappij zal zijn die met de reusachtige Airbus A380 op Schiphol gaat vliegen, overweegt ook KLM de aanschaf van de superjumbo.

Dat liet topman Peter Hartman onlangs doorschemeren in Parijs. Enkele jaren geleden meende KLM nog over een te kleine thuismarkt te beschikken. Inmiddels denkt men op termijn enkele ’groene reuzen’ goed te kunnen gebruiken in zijn netwerk.




Rough translation;
While Malaysia Airlines is probably starting A380 service to AMS next year KLM is also contemplating purchase of the superjumbo

KLM executive Peter Hartman mentioned this recently in Paris. A few years ago KLM was of the opinion they had a too small market at their homebase. But currently they think that in a few years they could put a few of the "green giants" to good use in their network


So is this just tabbloid non-sense, the first real mention of a possible A380 order or am I just re-itterating old news?  


Live From Amsterdam!
77 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedeltamartin From Sweden, joined Dec 2010, 1061 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24812 times:

As far as i understand it, they have said that they can fill 6 whales at the moment, and they won't order any until they can fill atleast 10.

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24347 times:

Its a question of when, not if, and they are aware that A380 sales are faster than production.

User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4721 posts, RR: 39
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24208 times:
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Quoting travelavnut (Thread starter):
So is this just tabbloid non-sense, the first real mention of a possible A380 order or am I just re-itterating old news?

It is no secret that KLM (as part of AF-KLM) is considering using the A380 in its fleet. So far as I understand it the business case for about 6 A380's is not viable yet for them. Meaning, the plane is not the right choice if all factors are considered. But there are some routes densely populated which could support the A380, but maybe not all year round. In certain stages of the year the passenger numbers are not there yet to support the usage of an A380, and therefore KLM is reluctant, but also anxious to add the A380 to its fleet. I hope enough routes do evolve to that level and we might see another Blue A380.  . The plane would look marvelous in KLM's color scheme.  .


User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1560 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24073 times:

While I do not know all the middle eastern 380 routes there is also another factor.If you wait too long to fill them 100% (ie a concrete marketing case) you may never fill them as "someone else" will take up the slack.Sometimes (when in a fight) you have to make a bold move and take a risk and get that stake in the ground early.

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 23817 times:

Quoting parapente (Reply 4):
Sometimes (when in a fight) you have to make a bold move and take a risk and get that stake in the ground early.

... and with A380s already operated in the group, with 5 active and 7 more on fix order, the risk is a small one.


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 23820 times:

Nailed on for KL by 2020.

I'll stick my mortgage on it.

Not many - I'll say 10 tops - but they are nailed right on. The timing of the order will be interesting. If KL want the 600 tonne A388 (although I'm struggling to think of a route they might need the extra range/payload) they earliest they could get one now is 2015. Bear in mind HX, VN, BA, LH and QR are due to extend that production line for a stretch with imminent orders in the next 18 months, the case may well be that they'll have to lump on now if they want anything before 2017 and by the end of 2013 if they want anything by the end of 2018.

Airbus badly need to sort the production issues out.

Open a second line for the A380 already!



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 23812 times:

If one looks at a number of destinations where KLM is now deploying its largest capacity aircraft and which have seen considerable growth in capacity over the past couple of years, then one would get a good idea about a number of destinations where the airline could fill an A380 at least during parts of the year:

KUL - because of the MH-cooperation, KLM is hauling very large numbers of passengers on the AMS KUL route. The B77W is currently deployed up to 6 times weekly. Depending on the future of the KL-MH cooperation, KUL will be a prime candidate for potential A388 deployment.

SIN - also filling up a B77W four times weekly and facing strong growth in demand. SIN is also on the list of potential future AF A380 service.

MNL - as the sole European airline left in MNL, KLM is experiencing very healthy loads there, and the B77W is deployed up to 5 times weekly.

DEL - KLM easily fills up the full pax B744 here in winter. That B744 is often interchanged with an MD11 in summer in an apparent aircraft swap with the SFO route.

SFO - sees the B744 and B77W in summer. KLM swaps these aircraft between DEL and SFO depending on the season.

NBO - KLM is now dispatching daily B744 equipment here because of the large number of connecting passengers through the KQ hub.

GRU - has been experiencing strong growth for KLM, and will see four weekly B77W next winter. Slot issues there will necessitate a capacity upgauge at some point.

CUR - a traditional stronghold of KLM, will soon manage up to 9 weekly flights, with daily full pax B744 deployed.

On top of these high demand routes, one could easily see the occasional A388 flight to the likes of JFK, YYZ, NRT and even CPT (in winter).


User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1560 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 23702 times:

Seems all are in agreement.(for once!)

Paris anyone???


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9769 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 23658 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 7):
CUR - a traditional stronghold of KLM, will soon manage up to 9 weekly flights, with daily full pax B744 deployed.

Those flight frequencies look misleading. KL is increasing the freqeuncy because of MP's exit. MP has between 4 to 5 weekly flights on a 763 while KL will use the MD11 on 2 flights to replace these MP flights, which to me actaully looks like a downgrade. I do agree that CUR is a traditional stronghold for KL. I would love to see the A388 here in CUR, so order them KL!!! 

A388


User currently offlinebj87 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23389 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 2):
Its a question of when, not if,

Agreed they will order one sooner or later.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 3):
Meaning, the plane is not the right choice if all factors are considered. But there are some routes densely populated which could support the A380, but maybe not all year round.

I remember reading or hearing somewhere that when KLM ordered the 747 the aircraft was really to big for their needs at the time. Over the years the demand catched up with the capacity of the 747. I'm guessing the A380 case would be the same. Although being part of the AF/KL group does help with maintenance and acquisition costs which make it less risky than the 747 acquisition.

Would love to see a KL A380 but it is still going to be quite a few years IMO.


User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1583 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23228 times:

Quoting parapente (Reply 8):
Seems all are in agreement.(for once!)


Not yet    KL may consider it, but that's far away from actually placing an order. They have to consider all options, and IIRC correctly, the A380 question was asked in regards of the massive EK threat for KL. "If it's necessary to have A380's to compete", or something like that.

I still think it is a huge capacity jump for an airline like KL. In a 3-class KL version (including Y+), the A380 would seat around 570 pax. A lot more than their current 77W's and 744's, which seat around 425. It's almost certain the full pax 744's will be replaced by 77W's, resulting in a fleet of 12. Add at least 6 A380's, will KL grow that much to fill all these big planes? I really doubt AMS will see that kind of traffic growth.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 7):


Of these destinations only NBO and CUR see daily 77W or 744 services now. And I doubt KL will want to rotate between the A380 and 77W on the same destination.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
Nailed on for KL by 2020.

I'll stick my mortgage on it.


That's quite a bet!  IF we see an A380 in KL colors, I don't think before 2020....



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23140 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
VN

You think that's gonna be firmed? I already lost my hope on that one...



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11638 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23026 times:

I would expect a KLM order to come along with an AF top up order, in the same joint fashion as the 787/350 order.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3874 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23008 times:

A380 in KLM colors ... So cool !

User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 22896 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 11):
Add at least 6 A380's, will KL grow that much to fill all these big planes? I really doubt AMS will see that kind of traffic growth.

The answer is unquestinably YES. IAG is getting stronger by the day and LH keeps gobbling up European airlines. Do you think all SkyTeam growth in Europe will be in CDG?

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 11):
Of these destinations only NBO and CUR see daily 77W or 744 services now. And I doubt KL will want to rotate between the A380 and 77W on the same destination.

That is now but I have no reason to believe that it will stay like this. We have to stop thinking about KL as a single standalone carrier.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 22866 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 11):
And I doubt KL will want to rotate between the A380 and 77W on the same destination.

Actually, KLM has on plenty of occasions before sent an aircraft mix that did not belong to the same family of cockpit type rating to certain destinations, so I have no doubt that the airline would do the same if and when the A388 were to join the fleet.


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 22591 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 15):
That is now but I have no reason to believe that it will stay like this. We have to stop thinking about KL as a single standalone carrier.

Agreed.
At some point KL/AF have got to come to their senses and see all the inefficiencies it has created (or left on the table) trying to keep this dual airline within a company alive.

AF already has the A380. Cooler heads need to prevail at some point. If KL/AF see a more profitable KL route for an A380 than AF currently uses its plane for, wouldn't it make sense to find efficiencies here and swap out equipment? Or purchase more? They are the same company are they not?  

[Edited 2011-06-15 07:21:58]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1583 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 22417 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 16):
Actually, KLM has on plenty of occasions before sent an aircraft mix that did not belong to the same family of cockpit type rating to certain destinations, so I have no doubt that the airline would do the same if and when the A388 were to join the fleet.

Well, there will be a rather different passenger experience in Y/Y+ between an A380    and a 77W    Don't know if passengers will bother what plane they'll on, according to popular A.net belief they do (certainly when it comes to A380's and 10 abreast 777's!), but we'll see.



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 22251 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 18):
Well, there will be a rather different passenger experience in Y/Y+ between an A380 and a 77W Don't know if passengers will bother what plane they'll on, according to popular A.net belief they do (certainly when it comes to A380's and 10 abreast 777's!), but we'll see.

Plenty of airlines are doing that today. LH the most notorious but certainly not the only one. Virtually every airline switches airplanes to adjust capacity between the high and low seasons. That is especially obvious in the US-Europe market. On a route that I travel most often (BOS-FRA), depending on the month of the year with LH you'll get either an A343, and A346, or a 744.


User currently offlineJaws707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 708 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 21763 times:

With KLM and Air France owned by the same company now, I don't understand why KLM just doesn't order 6 initial A380's to start with that they could support. Since Air France has a fleet of A380's, they already would have economies of scale, an easy way to train employees, maintenence options available. With all those resources available, I guess I don't understand why they would need 10 for the plane to make sense for them. I would only understand that if KLM was a stand alone airline, which it is not.

User currently offlinespikebe90 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 21711 times:

Can all these airports handle a 380, both terminal and taxiways?


keep it in the middle of the road
User currently offlinedalce From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1680 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20645 times:

At least AMS will have to do some work to create more 380-gates.


flown on : F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2178 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 20211 times:

I've always said it.    Next in line is based in ATL.


When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2178 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 20114 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 18):
Well, there will be a rather different passenger experience in Y/Y+ between an A380 and a 77W Don't know if passengers will bother what plane they'll on, according to popular A.net belief they do (certainly when it comes to A380's and 10 abreast 777's!)

Many passengers have no clue but many others actually care and know what aircraft they are going to be flying on. What is the ratio is unknown to me.



When I doubt... go running!
25 flythere : KL currently brings a 744combi and a 74F daily to HKG, guess there is potential for A380 with some more feed from AF and other ST members. Same for AF
26 EPA001 : That work is already in the planning phase, but has not been publicly announced yet. But a reliable internal source at Schiphol Amsterdam Airport tol
27 AJO : MH will be OneWorld soon, and I would guess that that will mean the end of the KL-MH codeshares. Future KL traffic to SE Asia, Australia and New Zeal
28 Mauriceb : Yes, and probably the G gates will be used for the upgrades. KL and A380? Yes. KL and A380 before 2020? Probably not. I think that the big order whic
29 Post contains images SR4ever : Well, CDG has plenty of capacity, but is just a mess as a hub, sadly KL could fly the 380 on DTW, ATL, SXM/CUR, NBO, ICN, PVG...
30 airbazar : It's not just capacity. There's little benefit to putting all your eggs in one basket, especially with the history of strikes in France.
31 Stitch : Do you think they will jump that far that quickly? I'm expecting something more like a 580t model (the original A380-800R) and than a 590t model (usi
32 Mortyman : Personally I have flown both the B744, 772 and A332 between Amsterdam and New York and back on KLM.
33 SolarFlyer22 : Yeah, I agree if you can fill 6 now then by the time they arrive you should be able to fill 10. You can't wait to order when you know that for certai
34 klmd11l : Do they HAVE to end codesharing because MH is joining Oneworld? I think the most obvious candidate would be KE/ICN, the best SkyTeam airline/airport
35 airbazar : Too far East when you consider that so much of the traffic is to Southeast Asia. Going from AMS to Malaysia/Thailand/Indonesia via ICN adds a good 20
36 Post contains images EPA001 : I do not know about the code sharing, but they have specifically said so that their "local partnership" on this route is not in danger by MH changing
37 Babybus : That was exactly what I was thinking too. I don't know much about the KLM on board experience but maybe they can't fill their current aircraft becaus
38 MCO2BRS : As has been stated before, up until now KL has said they would only be able to fill 6 A380's but to make the fleet viable, they'd have to order ~10 fr
39 328JET : I don´t see a problem if a fleet of 6 for KLM is too small in terms of economics. The A380s would be equal to the A380s from AF. The would be part of
40 goblin211 : I wish the 380 would have KL's livery on it but I don't think it will. If AF has the 380 then why should KL? in a way it's like they already do. besid
41 328JET : They both operate A332s, B77E, B77W as well...
42 gigneil : What? NS
43 MH017 : No, they don't HAVE to; in fact AF is code-sharing with QF on Australian flights...
44 Post contains images kasimir : I would also love to see the 380 in KL colors and especially see that bird coming to CUR/SXM, but I believe that it won't happen. Up till now all A380
45 A388 : I agree with most of your post but I where I don't agree is KL cramping 600 passengers in the A380. Just not going to happen if you would ask me... Y
46 Post contains images kasimir : Shouldn't be a problem. Imagine a main deck in full economy config (3-4-3 @ 31") comparable to LH, that makes 420 seats. Half of the upper deck with
47 Post contains images LifelinerOne : I think I remember three bays. I was there last week and three A380 's were in the FAL; one Airbus prototype, an Emirates and a Singapore one. Cheers
48 A388 : I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that I don't see KL doing this. Why would KL want to have 600 passengers in one aircraft? There just
49 kasimir : Based on what KL has right now in their fleet (just check seatguru) and compare their premium-to-economy class ratio to another A380 operator like LH
50 jpiddink : Let's not forget, that KL are very keen on their yield management. If they could fill a A380 on a couple of routes, I'm sure they would do their utmos
51 A388 : You said it right, your calculation is a very simple one. The configuration also depends on where you want to fly the aircraft (what are the markets
52 Viscount724 : The O&D market to/from AMS has always had relatively little premium class demand compared to other major European hubs like LHR and CDG. And a hi
53 notaxonrotax : Alas, Le Bourget has come and gone and I for one; have not heard anything about new KL 4-holers! Either VLA in KL colors would look even better than K
54 klmcedric : I've been saying it on here for years now, and with this new thread I'm saying it again, KLM will operate the A380 before the end of this decade. just
55 Baroque : That is a bit surprising given the unusual length of many folk from the Netherlands! The large floor area of the A380 would give KLM more scope to co
56 travelavnut : That is true, however; you seem to be forgetting our Scrooge-like nature. We'd rather be folded into a Y-class "seat" than pay premium for business.
57 Post contains images Baroque : Maybe it is because I happen to know a couple of Dutchmen who are so long they will just not fold as required! Just as well on your theory most Scots
58 Post contains images homeland545 : Imagine seeing this bird at SXM...i bet it will blow the beach away and scare alot of people
59 A388 : I have a hard time seeing the A380 arrive/depart from SXM, period. I think the airport's location makes it almost not worth it. A388
60 Post contains images kasimir : Just to be clear, I know this is just speculation and we will know for sure when there will be an order in the future (or not). And I'm NOT calculati
61 A388 : I think you must be careful with that as we all don't know how the markets will be in 4-6 years from now. Don't forget that if KL orders the A380 now
62 Revelation : Yes, and unfortunately for Airbus, that's because production is so far behind goals, which means they have to sell even more for the program to retur
63 CHRISBA777ER : Just because they havent ordered the A380 yet doesnt mean they wont and that for not winning the legacy 744 majors the A380 programme is some kind of
64 airbazar : Corsair flies 744's with 600 seats to SXM. I don't think SXM would be the ideal destination for a KL A380 because the A380 will have a good number of
65 Revelation : I never said they won't. In fact we have statements here that say when KLM generates enough demand to fill 10 of them they will be ordered, and I agr
66 A388 : Don't forget that the aircraft flies to Guadeloupe first. And yes, there is a difference between the 744 and the A380, seats aside. It's that little
67 Post contains images kasimir : I agree that global demand will grow, but not so much that we will see a 380 in KL livery before 2020. Also don't forget that KL needs to fill atleas
68 robffm2 : Did LH really had 50? Currently they have only 30 744.
69 Post contains links Revelation : Just took the numbers from Wiki's 747 pages which may or may not be accurate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li
70 kasimir : I agree with you and the 77W is also killing the case for a lot of potential 748i customers. The 77W (or the future A350) makes more sense for KL sin
71 kasimir : Those 50 are the 30 current 744 + the 20 ordered 748i. But LH will start phasing out the oldest 744 very soon!
72 A388 : On what are your assumptions based? A388
73 Post contains images kasimir : What KL says and does, a look in their history (the past 20-30 years), quick analysis of what the competition is doing, prospect of the future market
74 Post contains images A388 : Well I guess that is your personal opinion, I respect that. I agree with you on this. If KL will order more 77W's and A350's I also see the chances o
75 SASMD82 : You forget to mention: the passenger itself!!! A 10 abreat B77W or A359/A35J will neeeevvveeeer eeevveeer meet the same standards of comfort as the A
76 Post contains links and images Revelation : Thanks for the clarification. I think the spotter's chances of seeing the KLM A380 is only slightly better than seeing the KLM 747W:
77 Viscount724 : I don't know where the 50 comes from. LH took delivery of 32 744s, and 62 747s of all models (according to Boeing orders/deliveries data).
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