travelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1784 posts, RR: 7 Posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24927 times:
I know this is a question that has been asked before, also I know it is starting to resemble a beaten to death horse. But today my eye fell on a small news item in the Dutch "quality" tabbloid De Telegraaf;
Terwijl Malaysia Airlines volgend jaar waarschijnlijk de eerste luchtvaartmaatschappij zal zijn die met de reusachtige Airbus A380 op Schiphol gaat vliegen, overweegt ook KLM de aanschaf van de superjumbo.
Dat liet topman Peter Hartman onlangs doorschemeren in Parijs. Enkele jaren geleden meende KLM nog over een te kleine thuismarkt te beschikken. Inmiddels denkt men op termijn enkele ’groene reuzen’ goed te kunnen gebruiken in zijn netwerk.
Rough translation; While Malaysia Airlines is probably starting A380 service to AMS next year KLM is also contemplating purchase of the superjumbo
KLM executive Peter Hartman mentioned this recently in Paris. A few years ago KLM was of the opinion they had a too small market at their homebase. But currently they think that in a few years they could put a few of the "green giants" to good use in their network
So is this just tabbloid non-sense, the first real mention of a possible A380 order or am I just re-itterating old news?
EPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 5292 posts, RR: 40
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 24356 times:
Quoting travelavnut (Thread starter): So is this just tabbloid non-sense, the first real mention of a possible A380 order or am I just re-itterating old news?
It is no secret that KLM (as part of AF-KLM) is considering using the A380 in its fleet. So far as I understand it the business case for about 6 A380's is not viable yet for them. Meaning, the plane is not the right choice if all factors are considered. But there are some routes densely populated which could support the A380, but maybe not all year round. In certain stages of the year the passenger numbers are not there yet to support the usage of an A380, and therefore KLM is reluctant, but also anxious to add the A380 to its fleet. I hope enough routes do evolve to that level and we might see another Blue A380. . The plane would look marvelous in KLM's color scheme. .
parapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1840 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 24221 times:
While I do not know all the middle eastern 380 routes there is also another factor.If you wait too long to fill them 100% (ie a concrete marketing case) you may never fill them as "someone else" will take up the slack.Sometimes (when in a fight) you have to make a bold move and take a risk and get that stake in the ground early.
CHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 23968 times:
Nailed on for KL by 2020.
I'll stick my mortgage on it.
Not many - I'll say 10 tops - but they are nailed right on. The timing of the order will be interesting. If KL want the 600 tonne A388 (although I'm struggling to think of a route they might need the extra range/payload) they earliest they could get one now is 2015. Bear in mind HX, VN, BA, LH and QR are due to extend that production line for a stretch with imminent orders in the next 18 months, the case may well be that they'll have to lump on now if they want anything before 2017 and by the end of 2013 if they want anything by the end of 2018.
Airbus badly need to sort the production issues out.
Open a second line for the A380 already!
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
HB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4545 posts, RR: 71
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 23960 times:
If one looks at a number of destinations where KLM is now deploying its largest capacity aircraft and which have seen considerable growth in capacity over the past couple of years, then one would get a good idea about a number of destinations where the airline could fill an A380 at least during parts of the year:
KUL - because of the MH-cooperation, KLM is hauling very large numbers of passengers on the AMS KUL route. The B77W is currently deployed up to 6 times weekly. Depending on the future of the KL-MH cooperation, KUL will be a prime candidate for potential A388 deployment.
SIN - also filling up a B77W four times weekly and facing strong growth in demand. SIN is also on the list of potential future AF A380 service.
MNL - as the sole European airline left in MNL, KLM is experiencing very healthy loads there, and the B77W is deployed up to 5 times weekly.
DEL - KLM easily fills up the full pax B744 here in winter. That B744 is often interchanged with an MD11 in summer in an apparent aircraft swap with the SFO route.
SFO - sees the B744 and B77W in summer. KLM swaps these aircraft between DEL and SFO depending on the season.
NBO - KLM is now dispatching daily B744 equipment here because of the large number of connecting passengers through the KQ hub.
GRU - has been experiencing strong growth for KLM, and will see four weekly B77W next winter. Slot issues there will necessitate a capacity upgauge at some point.
CUR - a traditional stronghold of KLM, will soon manage up to 9 weekly flights, with daily full pax B744 deployed.
On top of these high demand routes, one could easily see the occasional A388 flight to the likes of JFK, YYZ, NRT and even CPT (in winter).
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10252 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 23806 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 7): CUR - a traditional stronghold of KLM, will soon manage up to 9 weekly flights, with daily full pax B744 deployed.
Those flight frequencies look misleading. KL is increasing the freqeuncy because of MP's exit. MP has between 4 to 5 weekly flights on a 763 while KL will use the MD11 on 2 flights to replace these MP flights, which to me actaully looks like a downgrade. I do agree that CUR is a traditional stronghold for KL. I would love to see the A388 here in CUR, so order them KL!!!
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 3): Meaning, the plane is not the right choice if all factors are considered. But there are some routes densely populated which could support the A380, but maybe not all year round.
I remember reading or hearing somewhere that when KLM ordered the 747 the aircraft was really to big for their needs at the time. Over the years the demand catched up with the capacity of the 747. I'm guessing the A380 case would be the same. Although being part of the AF/KL group does help with maintenance and acquisition costs which make it less risky than the 747 acquisition.
Would love to see a KL A380 but it is still going to be quite a few years IMO.
Not yet KL may consider it, but that's far away from actually placing an order. They have to consider all options, and IIRC correctly, the A380 question was asked in regards of the massive EK threat for KL. "If it's necessary to have A380's to compete", or something like that.
I still think it is a huge capacity jump for an airline like KL. In a 3-class KL version (including Y+), the A380 would seat around 570 pax. A lot more than their current 77W's and 744's, which seat around 425. It's almost certain the full pax 744's will be replaced by 77W's, resulting in a fleet of 12. Add at least 6 A380's, will KL grow that much to fill all these big planes? I really doubt AMS will see that kind of traffic growth.
HB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4545 posts, RR: 71
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 23014 times:
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 11): And I doubt KL will want to rotate between the A380 and 77W on the same destination.
Actually, KLM has on plenty of occasions before sent an aircraft mix that did not belong to the same family of cockpit type rating to certain destinations, so I have no doubt that the airline would do the same if and when the A388 were to join the fleet.
peanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1508 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 22739 times:
Quoting airbazar (Reply 15): That is now but I have no reason to believe that it will stay like this. We have to stop thinking about KL as a single standalone carrier.
At some point KL/AF have got to come to their senses and see all the inefficiencies it has created (or left on the table) trying to keep this dual airline within a company alive.
AF already has the A380. Cooler heads need to prevail at some point. If KL/AF see a more profitable KL route for an A380 than AF currently uses its plane for, wouldn't it make sense to find efficiencies here and swap out equipment? Or purchase more? They are the same company are they not?
[Edited 2011-06-15 07:21:58]
Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
frigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1745 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 22565 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 16): Actually, KLM has on plenty of occasions before sent an aircraft mix that did not belong to the same family of cockpit type rating to certain destinations, so I have no doubt that the airline would do the same if and when the A388 were to join the fleet.
Well, there will be a rather different passenger experience in Y/Y+ between an A380 and a 77W Don't know if passengers will bother what plane they'll on, according to popular A.net belief they do (certainly when it comes to A380's and 10 abreast 777's!), but we'll see.
airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 9039 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 22399 times:
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 18): Well, there will be a rather different passenger experience in Y/Y+ between an A380 and a 77W Don't know if passengers will bother what plane they'll on, according to popular A.net belief they do (certainly when it comes to A380's and 10 abreast 777's!), but we'll see.
Plenty of airlines are doing that today. LH the most notorious but certainly not the only one. Virtually every airline switches airplanes to adjust capacity between the high and low seasons. That is especially obvious in the US-Europe market. On a route that I travel most often (BOS-FRA), depending on the month of the year with LH you'll get either an A343, and A346, or a 744.
Jaws707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 708 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 21911 times:
With KLM and Air France owned by the same company now, I don't understand why KLM just doesn't order 6 initial A380's to start with that they could support. Since Air France has a fleet of A380's, they already would have economies of scale, an easy way to train employees, maintenence options available. With all those resources available, I guess I don't understand why they would need 10 for the plane to make sense for them. I would only understand that if KLM was a stand alone airline, which it is not.
YULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2214 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 20262 times:
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 18): Well, there will be a rather different passenger experience in Y/Y+ between an A380 and a 77W Don't know if passengers will bother what plane they'll on, according to popular A.net belief they do (certainly when it comes to A380's and 10 abreast 777's!)
Many passengers have no clue but many others actually care and know what aircraft they are going to be flying on. What is the ratio is unknown to me.
When I doubt... go running!
: KL currently brings a 744combi and a 74F daily to HKG, guess there is potential for A380 with some more feed from AF and other ST members. Same for AF
: That work is already in the planning phase, but has not been publicly announced yet. But a reliable internal source at Schiphol Amsterdam Airport tol
: MH will be OneWorld soon, and I would guess that that will mean the end of the KL-MH codeshares. Future KL traffic to SE Asia, Australia and New Zeal
: Yes, and probably the G gates will be used for the upgrades. KL and A380? Yes. KL and A380 before 2020? Probably not. I think that the big order whic
: Well, CDG has plenty of capacity, but is just a mess as a hub, sadly KL could fly the 380 on DTW, ATL, SXM/CUR, NBO, ICN, PVG...
: It's not just capacity. There's little benefit to putting all your eggs in one basket, especially with the history of strikes in France.
: Do you think they will jump that far that quickly? I'm expecting something more like a 580t model (the original A380-800R) and than a 590t model (usi
: Personally I have flown both the B744, 772 and A332 between Amsterdam and New York and back on KLM.
: Yeah, I agree if you can fill 6 now then by the time they arrive you should be able to fill 10. You can't wait to order when you know that for certai
: Do they HAVE to end codesharing because MH is joining Oneworld? I think the most obvious candidate would be KE/ICN, the best SkyTeam airline/airport
: Too far East when you consider that so much of the traffic is to Southeast Asia. Going from AMS to Malaysia/Thailand/Indonesia via ICN adds a good 20
: I do not know about the code sharing, but they have specifically said so that their "local partnership" on this route is not in danger by MH changing
: That was exactly what I was thinking too. I don't know much about the KLM on board experience but maybe they can't fill their current aircraft becaus
: As has been stated before, up until now KL has said they would only be able to fill 6 A380's but to make the fleet viable, they'd have to order ~10 fr
: I don´t see a problem if a fleet of 6 for KLM is too small in terms of economics. The A380s would be equal to the A380s from AF. The would be part of
: I wish the 380 would have KL's livery on it but I don't think it will. If AF has the 380 then why should KL? in a way it's like they already do. besid
: They both operate A332s, B77E, B77W as well...