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Lets Analyze The UA Widebody Fleets And Route Map.  
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 11549 times:

We were chattering in the other threads about places that will be made possible with the combined widebody fleets of United and CO, and with a lot of 787s ordered (50 firm) and 6 coming just next year, where some of these guys might go.

Avek00 was very firm that, with the merged fleets and the flexibility of deployment that United could get pretty good utility out of what they have today. This is a good thread to generate what we might think, talk about the fleets after they're fully reconfigured and deployed, and what the force will look like from a hub allocation perspective.

The last post involved:

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 50):
Maybe they'll shift some of these 757s to secondary destinations from Dulles as some of the Newark routes are upgraded to 767s.

Sadly we threw the ball around for a while on a previous thread and Dulles is just far enough to put it out of range of the 75 to a lot of them. Perhaps 762s shifting around will mean Dulles will get some of those smaller towns.

I'd actually, sadly, think connecting Chicago to more Newark stations with the 762s would be a better use of them. I'd certainly hope we get Paris back at San Francisco, and hopefully someone on Wacker drive has some balls and would launch Tel Aviv from SFO. I don't remember what the Washington numbers for Tel Aviv were but that sounds good, too.

My hopes are for a 787 or two from SFO to India , as well.

If someone has the desire to throw us together a quick list of each of the fleets, their configs and numbers of each, that'd be a great start. Then we can talk about routes flown today and what we think can be supported with moving everything around.

We should keep in mind that as 739s come on board, in theory 757s from the United fleet can be ETOPS rated and bumped to PW2042 if needed for international services.

This is a pretty abstract topic so it won't be hard to stay officially on it, but lets not have any negativity or turf wars here. This is just about taking a nice fleet of planes and an unmatched set of hubs and putting the pieces on the board where we think they could land in the future.

NS

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinescorpy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11071 times:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here is what I have for their international fleets in order of size:

B757-200

- 41 (16C 159Y) - Lie Flat

B767-200ER (apparently these planes are opportunistically for sale)

- 9 (25C 149Y) - Old style

B767-300ER

- 21 (6F 26C 71Y+ 80Y)
- 14 Not yet converted to International

B767-400 (not including Micronesia fleet)

- 12 (35C 200Y)

B777-200 (only one converted to IPTE)

- 12 (12F 49C 77Y+ 114Y)
- 1 (8F 40C 104Y+ 117Y)

B777-200ER

- 22 (50C 226Y) - Flat bed, GE Engine
- 13 (8F 40C 104Y+ 117Y) - P&W, IPTE (inc two in progress)
- 20 (12F 49C 77Y+ 114Y) - P&W, Old config

B747-400

- 24 (12F 52Y 70Y+ 240Y)


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5086 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11046 times:

I think we will see the 762s leave on a one-for-one basis with the arrival of early 787s (maybe not the first few deliveries, but pretty early on). They are just high-cost aircraft to fly, and their premium-heavy seating mix is not really compatible with flying ORD or IAD to secondary European markets.

Moving more PMUA 777s to EWR will certainly free up 764s for IAD and ORD expansion to Europe.



Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlinescorpy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11020 times:

Opportunities I see with the current fleet:

- more leverage of 777-200A's on newark routes that currently have the GE 777 and can support 3 class. LHR, CDG, FRA come to mind
- Introduction of 747-400 equipment on IAH and EWR NRT routes.
- leverage two class 767 equipment on routes such as DME
- leverage two class 777 equipment on routes like TPE
- look at using two class equipment on a restarted DEN-LHR

New routes:

757:
IAD to: BCN, MAD, DUB, MAN
ORD to: MAN

I like Gigneil's ideas of SFO and IAD to TLV.

Opportunities I see when the 787's start to arrive:

- re-introduce LAX-HKG
- re-introduce SFO-NGO
- ORD-ICN
- LAX-BNE; LAX-MEL (drop MEL tag from SYD)
- IAH-PVG
- SFO-CDG (I think this should wait for the 787)
- SFO-CAN (maybe?)
- More routes to india
- additional service to DME - maybe from EWR
- service to JNB
- EWR-IST


User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10988 times:

Quoting scorpy (Reply 3):
LAX-MEL (drop MEL tag from SYD)

yes please, and SFO-MEL while you're at it UA.


User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10949 times:

Quoting gigneil (Thread starter):
Sadly we threw the ball around for a while on a previous thread and Dulles is just far enough to put it out of range of the 75 to a lot of them. Perhaps 762s shifting around will mean Dulles will get some of those smaller towns.

I think the 762s will be gone sooner rather than later. Was there a consensus as to what routes can be reached from Dulles with the 752s? Barcelona? Lisbon?

Quoting gigneil (Thread starter):
San Francisco, and hopefully someone on Wacker drive has some balls and would launch Tel Aviv from SFO. I don't remember what the Washington numbers for Tel Aviv were but that sounds good, too.

I expected Washington before San Francisco, but there was the press release about United considering San Francisco, so who knows. I suppose it would be unique to have a West Coast link to Tel Aviv--plus high-tech city to high-tech city.

Could somebody explain this to me: Does United split revenues with Lufthansa on all trans-Atlantic flights including service TLV? In that case, what incentive would United ever have to launch SFO or IAD to TLV when right now Lufthansa dominates a large share of TLV traffic from both these cities?

Quoting gigneil (Thread starter):
My hopes are for a 787 or two from SFO to India , as well.

Yes, this will happen at some point this decade.


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10902 times:

I'd hope more Africa from IAD, IAH, and EWR and more South America (MVD, SCL) from IAH.

Quoting scorpy (Reply 3):

757:
IAD to: BCN, MAD, DUB, MAN
ORD to: MAN

IMHO, long overdue. IAD can be expanded further to Europe but the 757 only has so much range. IAD-MAN/DUB/GLA/MAD/BCN would probably be fine.

Also everyone is talking about SFO-TLV but I would think IAD/ORD-TLV is much more likely using 767 aircraft.

Quoting scorpy (Reply 3):
- more leverage of 777-200A's on newark routes that currently have the GE 777 and can support 3 class. LHR, CDG, FRA come to mind

That would make sense because the 777A's only have a specified amount of range so for TATL from EWR it wouldn't be stretching them to their limits -- EWR-FCO/BRU/FRA/MAD etc.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1721 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10899 times:

I would certainly love to see United add at some point flights to major cities in Western Canada (YVR, YEG and YYC) out of IAD - even as summer seasonal.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16689 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10820 times:

Quoting gigneil (Thread starter):
We should keep in mind that as 739s come on board, in theory 757s from the United fleet can be ETOPS rated and bumped to PW2042 if needed for international services.

The 14 UA ETOPS 757s will be needed for Hawaiian routes from the West Coast and Denver, I don't see them moving back East. Also with Hawaii I expect the 767-300s to come off of LAX-HNL (3 daily), LAX-OGG (2 daily), SFO-HNL (2 daily), SFO-OGG (1 daily), SFO-KOA (1 daily) and replaced with a 764 (in the case of SFO-HNL) and 757-300s. That would free up all those 763s to operate international routes, most likely from EWR. Or they could be used to take over routes from CO's 762s which could then be retired from the fleet.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 5):
Was there a consensus as to what routes can be reached from Dulles with the 752s? Barcelona? Lisbon?

BCN would be too far for CO's 757s from IAD, MAD though is within the range.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16689 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10804 times:

CO's 764 would be perfect for DEN-LHR, they already announced DEN-HNL is going to a CO 764 this Fall.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinescorpy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10732 times:

Another thought here is that the 787's offer UA the opportunity to get the jump on AA in both of their hubs that they have the most competition for international routes, that is LAX and ORD.

They have a few years head start with this new efficient aircraft and could, if they are aggressive and smart, change the landscape in these hubs. Maybe 2-3 more well placed flights from each would really cement their place. Larger 777's could then be used at their more fortress type hubs like IAH, SFO etc.


User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10607 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
CO's 764 would be perfect for DEN-LHR

Yes please!.

How about getting those 787 flying ORD - SIN?


User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10473 times:

Quoting scorpy (Reply 3):
- SFO-CDG (I think this should wait for the 787)

I do too. And I think it should happen. SFO needs to be connected to the primary Europe markets.

Quoting scorpy (Reply 3):
- LAX-BNE; LAX-MEL (drop MEL tag from SYD)

I agree with the destinations. Should it be SFO instead?

Quoting scorpy (Reply 3):
- More routes to india

In my mind, San Francisco should be next with maybe an ORD service to DEL. But am I wrong on this? SFO doesn't even get any tag ons and I have never heard of Air India considering it.

I have the view that the Bay Area and Indian economies are very closely linked for technology business, but does the traffic not actually bear that out?

Quoting scorpy (Reply 3):
- service to JNB

EWR or IAD-JNB would be nice, but South African might get angry. What about some other African destinations that aren't currently served?

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
They are just high-cost aircraft to fly, and their premium-heavy seating mix is not really compatible with flying ORD or IAD to secondary European markets.

Maybe not to secondary markets... maybe still to primary ones. ORD could handle a few more destinations that CO serves and probably get away with the config on the 762s, mostly to places the 757 can't reach.

What about the idea of converting the 762s to take over for the exiting domestic 763s? I can't see them just getting rid of 10 year old airplanes but I could be off base on that.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 6):
Also everyone is talking about SFO-TLV but I would think IAD/ORD-TLV is much more likely using 767 aircraft.

I'm agreeing and disagreeing. I think its more likely, but less important. SFO was the market with the most PDEW unserved nonstop, and EWR can handle a lot of the connecting traffic while feeding heavily from the local population.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
The 14 UA ETOPS 757s will be needed for Hawaiian routes from the West Coast and Denver, I don't see them moving back East.

I agree, but there are a large number of airplanes. What's to stop them from ETOPS rating a few more?

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
Also with Hawaii I expect the 767-300s to come off ... and 757-300s.

I clipped you. With all the domestic 767-300s being converted to international configs AND the 757-300s going to Hawaii flying, how are they going to haul passengers around the mainland system? Very careful scheduling of the 763 fleet to always have through tags to international routes?

I was thinking the 757-300s would be more and more important on the domestic system as the domestic 763s came off.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
CO's 764 would be perfect for DEN-LHR, they already announced DEN-HNL is going to a CO 764 this Fall.

I approve this message. Are they doing away with the 76H configuration for a uniform 764 fleet? That would make that even easier.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 11):
How about getting those 787 flying ORD - SIN?

Me thinks an early 787-8 will splash down somewhere in the Gulf of Thailand before reaching SIN with a decent load, but I could be horribly wrong.

SFO-SIN is "only" 7300ish nm. Let's see.


Something I wanted to bring up earlier - how do we think new route planning will take EWR and IAD hubs into account? Is Newark going to be the focus for new route launches with Washington just getting fill ins? If they launch JNB, which hub will get it? Its clear that from an O/D and even feed perspective Newark is a superior hub at this time, but it also has constrained capacity on several levels. Washington also has a unique O/D demand of its own.

My view on this is that DC can support *many* (not all) of the same O/D routes that New York can, and Dulles clearly has much better growth potential as an airfield. With the appropriate domestic increases I would think routing almost *all* connecting traffic to Dulles would be the optimum use of the resource, but that may reduce the economies of scale at Newark.

I'm interested in opinions on this topic. I clearly have a vested interest in IAD.

NS


User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10364 times:

Gigneil: I don't think there is a clear answer to that question. I think we'll see a lot of plugging holes in the coming years such as SFO-CDG and IAD-TLV, etc. In terms of brand new cities, I think Newark will still be their top choice, though not always. Look at their plans to add Houston to Auckland and Lagos (albeit announced before the merger). Like I said in the other thread, there aren't that many more new cities for United to launch. Seoul and Istanbul come to mind from New York. I could still see Cape Town or J'burg from Washington. Or daily nonstop Rio. Sooooo many possibilites for the new United!

User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4141 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10333 times:
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Quoting washingtonian (Reply 5):
I think the 762s will be gone sooner rather than later.

True, the economics of keeping such a small sub-fleet are questionable.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
They are just high-cost aircraft to fly, and their premium-heavy seating mix is not really compatible with flying ORD or IAD to secondary European markets.

Okay, here's where I have the problem. If there are other companies making money with the 762ER in any configuration (and there are such companies) then why not change the configuration?

Or is this a mechanical impossibility?

Or am I being reductionist in my thinking?


User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10285 times:

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):
I think we'll see a lot of plugging holes

That's what she said. Sorry, I had to.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):
Look at their plans to add Houston to Auckland and Lagos (albeit announced before the merger).

Lagos Houston makes a ton of sense, oil and all. IAH-AKL is weird, but innovative. IAH gives a lot of connecting power and a lot of good timings, but I would think they need to add SFO-AKL as well.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 14):
True, the economics of keeping such a small sub-fleet are questionable.

Yeah but it isn't a subfleet, per se. Its a 767. It has 767 parts and 767 pilots and 767 maintenance.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 14):
Okay, here's where I have the problem. If there are other companies making money with the 762ER in any configuration (and there are such companies) then why not change the configuration?

That, right there, is a fantastic question, and one I would like to know the answer to as well.

NS


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5086 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10209 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 14):
Okay, here's where I have the problem. If there are other companies making money with the 762ER in any configuration (and there are such companies) then why not change the configuration?

Because that is expensive and the other U.S. airlines flying the 762 are not making much money with it. AA's transcons are only marginally profitable. US flies low-yield tourist routes with its 762s for the most part, and won't be a bit sad when they're all gone and replaced with A332s.

The 762 is just too heavy for its capacity when it's competing with things like 752s, 764s, and A330s.



Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16689 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10186 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 6):
Also everyone is talking about SFO-TLV but I would think IAD/ORD-TLV is much more likely using 767 aircraft.

If UA is going to launch a new route to TLV it should be LAX, there's more traffic demand from LAX to TLV than SFO, ORD and IAD.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 12):
agree, but there are a large number of airplanes. What's to stop them from ETOPS rating a few more?

Way too expensive and impractical, they have more than enough CO ETOPS 757s for Trans-Atlantic routes for routes from EWR, ORD and IAD. CO/UA is still flying CO International ETOPS 757s on domestic and Latin flights from IAH that can easily be handled by UA non-ETOPS domestic 757s.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 12):

I was thinking the 757-300s would be more and more important on the domestic system as the domestic 763s came off.

First of all Hawaii is domestic, and second only 12 of CO's 757-300s are ETOPS and can fly to Hawaii. The other 9 non-ETOPs 757-300s as well as UA Domestic 757-200s and all the new CO 737-900ERs they're taking delivery of (19 in 2012 alone) are more than adequate to address domestic needs.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 12):
My view on this is that DC can support *many* (not all) of the same O/D routes that New York can, and Dulles clearly has much better growth potential as an airfield.

Nope, IAD couldn't support nonstops to HKG, DEL, BOM, double daily 777s to TLV and many other cities.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 12):
With the appropriate domestic increases I would think routing almost *all* connecting traffic to Dulles would be the optimum use of the resource, but that may reduce the economies of scale at Newark.

CO/UA enjoy the highest average fares in the Nation at EWR, why would they want to move traffic away?.. If they're getting a premium they should be shifting more traffic through EWR, which they are and will continue. People always bring up EWR being constrained and IAD having room to grow, but yet they never investigate why that is.

IAD has room to grow because demand has not outweighed supply, the reverse is true at EWR where there is tremendous demand but not enough supply (flights). Thus EWR has the highest average domestic fares in the Nation, this means UA should be investing their resources into EWR to take advantage of the high demand and high fares. They've already begun this in some ways by replacing 45 seat COEX ERJs with 70 seat UAX ERJ-170s and CR7s, next they will replace smaller CO aircraft on International routes with larger UA aircraft which we have already begun seeing. UA is moving CO 757s to IAD and moving UA widebodies to EWR, this trend will speed up once the SOC is secured.

EWR airfares;

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...ewark_airport_has_highest_ave.html



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16689 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10102 times:

Here's the list of the top 100 airports in the Nation in terms of airfares;

UA hubs:

EWR #1
IAH # 7
IAD #10
SFO #14
CLE # 18
LAX #20
ORD # 34
DEN # 77

http://www.bts.gov/programs/economic...vel_price_index/html/table_08.html

This list should be taken into account in terms of where UA should invest resources, EWR and IAH should be at the top of the list and DEN way down. Note how far down the list Denver's fares are thanks to the three way fight between F9, UA and WN. While I wish no harm or job losses on anyone, the situation in Denver is not sustainable. The demise of F9 would go a long way to stabilizing the situation for both UA and WN in Denver, UA needs those DEN fares to rise on that fare list.

ATL which is a very strong hub for DL is down there with DEN at # 60, thanks to the DL/FL competition, that should increase a bit with WN's entrance. Then there's PHX which is a huge hub for WN and US, PHX is in at # 58 in the nation in terms of airfares. PHX is where WN and UA will hopefully end up with DEN, a sustainable two hub operation.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinescorpy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10043 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 12):
I agree with the destinations. Should it be SFO instead?

Perhaps, but LA is still the number one destination for Australians going to the USA. I could envisage in a few years a schedule to Australia something like:

LAX-SYD
10pw 359

LAX-BNE
5pw 788

LAX-MEL
7pw 788

SFO-SYD
7pw 789

I'm still skeptical of the IAH-AKL flight, but we'll see how it goes.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 12):
In my mind, San Francisco should be next with maybe an ORD service to DEL. But am I wrong on this? SFO doesn't even get any tag ons and I have never heard of Air India considering it.

I have the view that the Bay Area and Indian economies are very closely linked for technology business, but does the traffic not actually bear that out?

That's a good question. I suspect, that the IT industry has small numbers of high yield passengers - i.e. senior execs flying over to check up on outsourced operations, but no volume, so can the flights work with a couple of full fare C seats and loads of VFR traffic down back. I don't know.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 12):
EWR or IAD-JNB would be nice, but South African might get angry. What about some other African destinations that aren't currently served?

Cairo would have sprung to mind, and I think it does make sense once traffic sustains itself. I wonder though, is there enough room for both UA and DL on some of the secondary African destinations that DL already fly to. You could perhaps split up IAD-LOS and IAD-ACC, but then the traffic musn't be as good as thought, as this route is down to something like 5pw.

I also wonder if a case could be made for CPT.

Another question - if the fuel price remains around $100 or more over the next couple of years, how long will the 744's remain in the fleet?


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5086 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9984 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 12):
In my mind, San Francisco should be next with maybe an ORD service to DEL. But am I wrong on this? SFO doesn't even get any tag ons and I have never heard of Air India considering it.

I have the view that the Bay Area and Indian economies are very closely linked for technology business, but does the traffic not actually bear that out?

Don't forget that it's a ULH operation and will be rather expensive to run. ULH and VFR don't go together. I am skeptical that there's enough premium traffic to make this service (which would have to wait for a 787-9, and might take restrictions even on the -9) worth it.



Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9938 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):
IAD has room to grow because demand has not outweighed supply, the reverse is true at EWR where there is tremendous demand but not enough supply (flights). Thus EWR has the highest average domestic fares in the Nation, this means UA should be investing their resources into EWR to take advantage of the high demand and high fares.

They should move the excess of RJ's away from EWR and use the slots for more international routings.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16689 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9856 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 21):
They should move the excess of RJ's away from EWR and use the slots for more international routings.

Just replace the ERJ-145s with larger aircraft, more ERJ-170s and CR-7s. Also some Q400s at EWR should be replaced with ERJ-170s and CR-7s. For instance of the 12 daily flights between DEN and COS four of those flights are on CR-7s, that 73 mile route is much better suited for the Q400.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9709 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 22):

I was thinking more mainline frequencies. There are only so many CR7s and E170s to go around right now with no plans at this time of ordering anything further (especially with that iffy CO scope clause in place.) The Q400s are also being used out of PMUA hubs like ORD and IAD as well. The issue is that COEX operates a ton of ERJs, and EWR is more of a premium market with a need for F on regional jets -- so where would the ERJs be shifted to?

Something like EWR-CLT could be operated with 1-2 ERJs, Q400s, or CR7s a day, with the rest being a combination of 319/320, 737 or even PMUA 757. They should cut frequency by offering larger aircraft and then use the additional slots for more lucritive international routings.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9510 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):
UA is moving CO 757s to IAD and moving UA widebodies to EWR, this trend will speed up once the SOC is secured.

They've move TWO IAD routes to 757s. There aren't many more (if any) international routes from IAD that can be switched to the 757. I have no doubt we'll see more widebodies at Newark, but it probably won't be at Dulles's expense. The airline is essentially getting 14 new international aircraft in the coming years (forgetting the 787 deliveries!); this will give lots of flexibility throughout the system.

I am still curious. Can somebody provide a list of what European cities can make IAD or ORD with the 752? So far somebody has said IAD-Madrid. Is that about it besides the United Kingdom cities and Paris/Amsterdam?


25 gigneil : Dur. So by this list Dulles isn't exactly screwed... they need to continue to invest there. The question is how much and to where. Here's the thing a
26 FlyPNS1 : Why? Is there really enough enough demand to justify two carriers on SFO-CDG? Flights from the West Coast to the Europe/Middle East can be difficult
27 gigneil : But the demand for TLV from SFO and LAX alone are strong enough to make it work... if I recall a thread not too terribly long ago. NS
28 TOMMY767 : I think they are doing the bare necessities by adding 738s to the UA network. They are probably waiting on major equipment adjustments by hub until t
29 kgaiflyer : Marginal or not -- they're not losing money. Okay then -- so how can the CO 762ER be reconfigured to make money and not lose money?
30 tsnamm : CO was scheduled to fly EWR/CAI with a 777 starting this past May, however it was suspended indefinitely due to the political situation in Egypt, and
31 STT757 : Let's make it easy, CO's longest 757 route is EWR-TXL at 3983 miles. That route is as far as they can go, during the Winter months CO has had to swit
32 The777Man : IAH will be a very impressive hub next year with flights to six continents; AKL, LOS, FRA, NRT, GIG and US domestic flights. There's been some rumors
33 washingtonian : Thank you for the list STT. So assuming that United puts some of the 14 soon-to-be-converted PMUA 767s on some of the current 757 flights from Newark
34 SonomaFlyer : The 13 777A's could cover Europe from either ORD or EWR (or IAD for that matter). Their 5,200 mile range give UA a ton of options to bump up their wid
35 STT757 : Pretty much everything that can be reached from IAH with a 757 is already served, save La Paz and Santa Cruz. CO used to serve VVI via LIM, they coul
36 washingtonian : Like I said above then, isn't it inevitable then that some of the 757s will be put on new routes from Dulles and O'Hare?
37 Irishpower : Now I know some of the distances are too long for non-stops but what about this wish list from SFO. Give me your thoughts. Asia SFO-TPE SFO-BKK SFO-CA
38 STT757 : Some CO 757s already are being put on international routes from IAD.
39 seabosdca : TPE, CAN - could work. Either one seems a likely 787-8 prospect. BKK, KUL - low yield and high distance, a lethal combination (and challenging even fo
40 avek00 : For Asia, most the non-India routes mentioned would suffer from poor yields to sustain a nonstop service, and BLR goes into ULH territory, which is t
41 goldenstate : I'm sure the demand is there, but I wonder how much of it would generate high enough yields to sustain a nonstop. I suspect it would be a mediocre pe
42 FlyPNS1 : But that presumes nearly everyone would fly UA which is highly unlikely. With so many hubs in between SFO and TLV, many people will simply fly other
43 scorpy : The 6 domestic aircraft are not included in the count of 13 above. I doubt they are being reconfigured as they have had additional flying to GUM adde
44 gigneil : International routes.... but so far no indication of any new ones. NS
45 Post contains images kgaiflyer : The funny part here is that everyone I know in the DC area has been to BCN. But almost no one has ever been to MAD. Must not be any beaches in MAD. S
46 gigneil : I'd take that nonstop IAD-MAD so that I can hop on Spanair to IBZ. NS
47 AA767400 : IAH needs some serious investing, but EWR is packed as it is. The airport is congested, and some flights need to be tweaked. I understand your love f
48 gigneil : I agree that Newark could use work - and I think that work involves reducing frequencies to some places and increasing equipment, so that its less of
49 ord : This government data is based on average itinerary cost, which is an inaccurate metric. Michael Boyd pointed this out earlier in the year. For exampl
50 washingtonian : Yes, two so far. But that's about it. I don't think IAD-BRU or LHR will see 757 service (though who knows, EWR-LHR sees 4 757s a day!). That leaves j
51 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Since my institution sends kids to Cambridge University every year, an IAD-STN 757 might be a bit of fun. Right now we're VS-ing our kids into Heathr
52 SonomaFlyer : I for one would love to see non-stop service to the other London airports. This would include STN or LTN. If this route launches at all from any UA hu
53 FSDan : Whatever UA decides to do with their widebody fleet, I hope they keep at least one or two daily frequencies on most of their domestic hub-hub routes.
54 Post contains images SonomaFlyer : I disagree. The West Coast and East Coast these days are often considered separate markets. There are tons of travel options from the West Coast to E
55 FSDan : All the same, don't expect MANY new SFO-Europe flights. I could see a few such as MAD, CDG, and maybe MXP or FCO, but not too much beyond that. Keep
56 nzrich : They dont need to operate SFO-AKL as Air NZ already operate and they codeshare on it now .
57 gigneil : Alright then, will they be adding Sydney to IAH at some point? NS
58 washingtonian : Can the 787/A-350 make this?
59 goldenjet707 : NZ used to fly to San Francisco, but pulled out a while ago. They serve L.A. And besides, with that same logic, why do they fly to FRA when LH serves
60 SonomaFlyer : NZ continues to serve SFO with a 744. NZ flights 7 and 8.
61 SFOA380 : They serve SFO with a daily 744--they switched from a 777 after the big Qantas announcement...
62 Post contains images fxramper : Based on your data it doesn't make a lot of sense to grow IAD just because there is room. Move under preforming flights down to IAD and bring on the
63 FSDan : It's actually 5x weekly for now. Well for one, they have a JV with LH so it's equivalent to LH flying two of their own, or vice versa. Also, FRA is a
64 STT757 : The 787-9 would be the aircraft with the range for IAH-SYD. The UA A319s and A320s are better suited for the short-medium haul domestic business flig
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