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DL Mainline In YYZ  
User currently offlineUA191 From Canada, joined Apr 2010, 53 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6098 times:

I've been looking through the database of photos on a.net and have founds lots of DL mainline aircraft at YYZ, the most recent being in 2009, if I'm not mistaken.

Right now, DL offers no mainline service out of YYZ, just a handful of CRJs from various DL Connection carriers.

My question is why DL decided to stop mainline service to Toronto. I'm a Medallion with DL & the aircraft are always quite full when I'm flying into & out of YYZ (frequently there are overbookings).

Can anyone tell us why this might be?


UA Global Services, DL Platinum Medallion, AC Super Elite - I love flying!!!
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineskoker From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 439 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6031 times:

I know exactly why: More Torontoians fly DL out of BUF than out of YYZ. They've got the capacity where they need it, it's better to be over a seat or two on a RJ than underutilize something like an MD-88 (the most likely suspect) by 80 seats.

Example: YYZ-MCO roundtrip 7/12 to 7/14 is $382.80 with taxes and fees, BUF-MCO same dates is $290.80 per person.

Figure a family of 4 and there's huge savings making the drive to BUF. Plus it's mainline the whole way there with Medallion upgrades, SkyPriority, Gogo, and you're doing entirely domestic flights so there's no need to do anything with Customs at the airport.


User currently offlinebreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6006 times:

It is really odd isn't it. You'd think ATL, DTW, MSP, maybe even JFK or SLC could support mainline, but I guess DL knows more than I. Must be depressing yields.

I remember the days when US carriers (actually DL in particular - AA, UA, NW were already doing rather well with their CA authorities from hub cities) were chomping at the bit for US-CA open skies in order to turn a bunch of oddball, bilateral treaty routes (like MIAYUL, BOSYUL, DENYYC) into more hub-oriented flying (mostly ATL). OS came, and there were some interesting but brief runs at this with mainliners, this and that type hub routes, but here we are with a bunch of RJ's in the end. Bummer!



Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4499 posts, RR: 33
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5841 times:

Yields on the actual cost of air travel aren't the problem at a wealthy market like YYZ. But even in the Golden Horseshoe, people don't like their airline tickets being used as taxation cash cows. So some of them drive to BUF and save big, as can reasonably be expected. Canada's loss, Western New York's gain.

Back in the 80's, I used to enjoy seeing Eastern L-1011's at BUF and YYZ! And AA flew lots of DC-10's to YYZ.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3070 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5821 times:

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 3):
Yields on the actual cost of air travel aren't the problem at a wealthy market like YYZ. But even in the Golden Horseshoe, people don't like their airline tickets being used as taxation cash cows. So some of them drive to BUF and save big, as can reasonably be expected. Canada's loss, Western New York's gain.

I assume that this is why BLI is an up and coming market too, like with AS's BLI-HNL flight (plus BLI is a much nicer place that BUF - no offense)


User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4499 posts, RR: 33
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5796 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
I assume that this is why BLI is an up and coming market too, like with AS's BLI-HNL flight (plus BLI is a much nicer place that BUF - no offense)

That's correct. There have been many threads here about Canada's use of air travel as a means to fund other things. Airports in USA cities near the border have been beneficiaries.

Haven't been to Bellingham, but Vancouver sure is a terrific place. I wouldn't ask my friends in Vancouver to drive me all the way to BLI, and besides, my visits aren't long enough to justify using precious time on driving there. So I just suck it up and pay ridiculous fares at YVR. But not everyone does.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4050 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5769 times:

Canada suffers so much spillage to U.S. airports just over the border it's an issue their federal government will have to address sooner than later. PBG in northern New York just an hour or so south of YUL has sucked ever increasing numbers of Canadians over the land crossing and onto U.S. flights south to FLL and other destinations just in the last 4 years since the conversion of the old SAC USAF base materialized. They jokingly have a theme: "Montreal's U.S. airport." But it's no joke. As noted above YVR loses passengers to the tune of over a million a year to BLI and SEA.. Sometime look at all the motels around GTF just off I-15 and realize they have a business of housing passengers from YQL (Lethbridge) since even with a motel it is still cheaper to drive 3 hours south to GTF than an hour and a half or 2 to YYC and get that U.S. flight.

[Edited 2011-06-23 16:17:51]


DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5712 times:

Quoting skoker (Reply 1):
Figure a family of 4 and there's huge savings making the drive to BUF. Plus it's mainline the whole way there with Medallion upgrades, SkyPriority, Gogo, and you're doing entirely domestic flights so there's no need to do anything with Customs at the airport.

Agreed. The savings aren't necessarily there for the solo traveler (figure gas, parking @ BUF, etc and It probably eats up the $100 you'll save flying out of BUF), but x 4 people it's certainly worth it.


User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5640 times:

DL used to fly mainline to a number of destinations in FL from YYZ, but that was in late 80s and early 90s. Also US had flights to BUF, CLE, PHL, PIT all mainline.

User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5591 times:

It has nothing to do with BUF or cross-border spillage.

DL has reduced the aircraft size on all its YYZ routes but increased the frequency. ATL is now 6x daily CR9 (mostly) vs 4x M80 years ago, and DL is 8x daily CRJ-CR9 etc vs 4-5 daily DC-9.

The DL M88 made a brief reappearance in YYZ in Aug-Sept 2010 to.from ATL. DL mainline to DTW & MSP stopped in 2008.

Given the large num of DL CR9's in YYZ, it's reasonable DL mainline will reappear to DTW or ATL from time to time.

Incidently, DL 319's a 752's are seen in YYZ fairly regularly on charters.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4930 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5543 times:

Quoting DCA-ROCguy" class="quote" target="_blank">DCA-ROCguy (Reply 3):
Back in the 80's, I used to enjoy seeing Eastern L-1011's at BUF and YYZ! And AA flew lots of DC-10's to YYZ.

That was before open skies between Canada and the US. Airlines had to make the most of the route authorities that they could. AA used to have two daily DC-10s YYZ-ORD, but trust me, very few were ending their journey at ORD. Likewise with UA, and a daily DC-10, YYZ-ORD. Today, one can fly non-stop to just about everywhere in the US from YYZ ... why bother with ORD?

EA's flights from YYZ-BUF were a slightly different story. Instead of connections at BUF, EA used its YYZ-BUF authority to fly direct flights through BUF to the southern US. YYZ-BUF-MIA, YYZ-BUF-TPA were common, as well as the L1011 you mention YYZ-BUF-ATL.

AL, (Allegheny) did the same thing with ROC, YYZ-ROC-LGA, YYZ-ROC-DCA, etc.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinepnd100 From Canada, joined Mar 2009, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5522 times:

Quoting skoker (Reply 1):
I know exactly why: More Torontoians fly DL out of BUF than out of YYZ but I do not want to pay $200-$300 more per ticket. That is what it amounts to. I have not been to the United States since I was a teenager in 1992 but in 2012 / 2013 we were planning to go. I was checking flights on expedia.ca from BUF. I dismissed it initially but after checking I was stunned by the difference.

Quoting breaker1011 (Reply 2):
It is really odd isn't it. You'd think ATL, DTW, MSP, maybe even JFK or SLC could support mainline

They can but due to the transborder factor, they won't. If the taxes (which are about $200-$350 depending) are lowered then maybe we will see a DL 77L in
Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 3):
Yields on the actual cost of air travel aren't the problem at a wealthy market like BUF and save big, as can reasonably be expected. Canada's loss, Western New York's gai

   Agreed

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 6):
Canada suffers so much spillage to U.S. airports just over the border it's an issue their federal government will have to address sooner than later

No they won't. They don't need to. The taxes flying out of Canada are such that they make up for the loss of traffic. BUF is an option for YYZ.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 9):
It has nothing to do with BUF or cross-border spillage.

Respectfully disagree  

[Edited 2011-06-23 18:22:59]

User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4050 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5461 times:

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 11):
Canada suffers so much spillage to U.S. airports just over the border it's an issue their federal government will have to address sooner than later
No they won't. They don't need to. The taxes flying out of Canada are such that they make up for the loss of traffic. BUF is an option for YYZ when flying to the US but international flights you really have no choice but to fly from YYZ.

Chances are if the opposition NDP had their way they would try and tax Canadians using U.S. airports for U.S. flights!    The Canadian model for airport funding and revenue is more like the British   
I is very disappointing to see merely CRJ aircraft on routes such as SLC/YVR, SLC/YYC that were flown by planes as big as a 752 once upon a time.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4930 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5403 times:

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 11):
Quoting skoker (Reply 1):
I know exactly why: More Torontoians fly DL out of BUF than out of YYZ.

I'm about as patriotic as it gets but I have to admit that this is a fact.

Not a fact. Especially when (for example) DL has more flights from YYZ to ATL than from BUF to ATL. But there may be a lot of Canadians flying DL out of BUF (just not Torontonians), but that is not always related to fares .... more proximity. There are over 1 million Canadians that live closer to BUF than YYZ. When flying to the US, for them, BUF is a reasonable alternative.

I keep hearing about how YYZ is losing traffic to BUF for US flights. Then ... I look at AC's operations flight matrix, and I see 200 flights today to and from the US, from YYZ, with 80%+ load factors. I look at a non-stop to SAN, PDX, SEA, 5 to LAX, 4 to SFO, 2 to DEN, 2 to IAH, 2 to DFW, etc etc etc ... all mostly full.

Yes, there are people that will drive 3 hours to save $100, just like traffic lost to Greyhound, I don't see a lot of airlines chasing that demographic.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinepnd100 From Canada, joined Mar 2009, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5370 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 13):
I'm about as patriotic as it gets but I have to admit that this is a fact.

Not a fact.

Thanks for spotting the error. Post edited. It's a fact for me but you are right, different people have different views  


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5312 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 6):
Canada suffers so much spillage to U.S. airports just over the border it's an issue their federal government will have to address sooner than later. PBG in northern New York just an hour or so south of YUL has sucked ever increasing numbers of Canadians over the land crossing and onto U.S. flights south to FLL and other destinations just in the last 4 years since the conversion of the old SAC USAF base materialized.

Hardly an issue that the feds have to worry about, all the traffic being lost is low yield VFR traffic that is price sensitive. Very little if no business traffic does this which is why AC has so many frequencies to large US cities. Time is money to a whole lot of people so YYZ, YVR, and YUL have little to worry about.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5197 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 15):
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 6):
Canada suffers so much spillage to U.S. airports just over the border it's an issue their federal government will have to address sooner than later. PBG in northern New York just an hour or so south of YUL has sucked ever increasing numbers of Canadians over the land crossing and onto U.S. flights south to FLL and other destinations just in the last 4 years since the conversion of the old SAC USAF base materialized.

Hardly an issue that the feds have to worry about, all the traffic being lost is low yield VFR traffic that is price sensitive. Very little if no business traffic does this which is why AC has so many frequencies to large US cities. Time is money to a whole lot of people so YYZ, YVR, and YUL have little to worry about.

Agree. I expect AC is quite happy to see the lowest-yield passengers travel via the US. It leaves more capacity available for more profitable passengers paying higher fares.

And knowing how long and unpredictable major Canada-US border crossing checkpoints can be, I would be very nervous about booking a low and almost always non-refundable fare from a US airport unless I was planning to arrive the day before the flight. A lengthy wait to cross the border, combined with the possility of heavy traffic the rest of the way (for example, passing through downtown Seattle on Interstate 5 en route from Vancouver to SEA airport. For several months of the year in most of Canada you also have the likelihood of unpredicable and often severe winter weather further increasing the likelihood of traffic delays and missing your flight, losing your entire fare, and having to purchase new tickets at high walkup fares.

And, while some price-sensitive passengers may not mind spending several hours driving to/from a US airport to obtain a lower fare, it shouldn't be overlooked that AC also generates a lot of revenue from US passengers connecting to/from their international network via Canada, often at very competitive fares.


User currently offlinepnd100 From Canada, joined Mar 2009, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5165 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Agree. I expect AC is quite happy to see the lowest-yield passengers travel via the US. It leaves more capacity available for more profitable passengers paying higher fares.

And knowing how long and unpredictable major Canada-US border crossing checkpoints can be, I would be very nervous about booking a low and almost always non-refundable fare from a US airport unless I was planning to arrive the day before the flight. A lengthy wait to cross the border, combined with the possility of heavy traffic the rest of the way (for example, passing through downtown Seattle on Interstate 5 en route from Vancouver to SEA airport. For several months of the year in most of Canada you also have the likelihood of unpredicable and often severe winter weather further increasing the likelihood of traffic delays and missing your flight, losing your entire fare, and having to purchase new tickets at high walkup fares.

And, while some price-sensitive passengers may not mind spending several hours driving to/from a US airport to obtain a lower fare, it shouldn't be overlooked that AC also generates a lot of revenue from US passengers connecting to/from their international network via Canada, often at very competitive fares.

Very good points. As I was thinking of travelling just the one time to the US next year it would be a consideration for me to go to BUF to save $300 or so but you are right, if this trip is a more frequent one then no. Many people are surprised when business "let" customers go but sometimes it is better for business. That is what my company is doing now. With the entry of discount companies into our industry we have been happy to let them deal with the low yielding customers while we focus on higher yield. Sometimes less is more.


User currently offlinelouA340 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 385 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4953 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 9):
Incidently, DL 319's a 752's are seen in YYZ fairly regularly on charters.


Does Delta ever fly the 737's into YYZ? Did they ever use them in the past?



RyEng
User currently offlineskymiler From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4726 times:

Quoting louA340 (Reply 18):
Does Delta ever fly the 737's into YYZ? Did they ever use them in the past?



Over the years since DL started serving YYZ (which was a route they were granted after EA's demise) they have had almost every narrow-body type on that route.

I personally have been on 727, 737, 757, DC-9 and MD-88's!

But, (to follow other comments in this thread) I mainly use BUF since I am back and forth to Hamilton -- who wants to mess with the traffic and other issues at Pearson? BUF also has made themselves very Canuck friendly with the renovations over the last 2 or so years.



I love to fly, and it shows!
User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3362 times:

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 5):
So I just suck it up and pay ridiculous fares at YVR. But not everyone does.

Not knowing your final destination, have you tried booking two separate tickets out of YVR? Say YVR-SEA as one ticket, then SEA-XXX as the other?

I've done this going to SAN and it saves me about $50 (plus I have to stop at SEA anyway on AS)


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3269 times:

Quoting breaker1011 (Reply 2):
It is really odd isn't it. You'd think ATL, DTW, MSP, maybe even JFK or SLC could support mainline, but I guess DL knows more than I. Must be depressing yields.

With the proliferation of the Regional aircraft out there today, flying from YYZ has become a commuter paradise. Every main U.S. based airline would rather send their RJ's into YYZ than fly in mainline aircraft.

Also, the landing fees that are charged at YYZ are based on the amount of seats the aircraft is flying into the airport. These have gone down in recent years but are still quite high when you compare the BUF and DTW airports which have 60% of Canada's population with in its catchment area.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
I assume that this is why BLI is an up and coming market too, like with AS's BLI-HNL flight

Yeah, except that it is in the Washington state are and the topic is about YYZ.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3124 times:

Quoting louA340 (Reply 18):

It's almost always been RJs with and odd MadDog thrown in every now and then. 4-5 years ago, YYZ was almost all CR2s for a while from Atlanta then it went to a mix of CR2 and CR7s. Now, you will find CR9s (one lone CR7) with an E175 thrown in for good measure.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3091 times:

Quoting skymiler (Reply 19):
Over the years since DL started serving YYZ (which was a route they were granted after EA's demise) they have had almost every narrow-body type on that route.

A.net photos of DL mainline aircraft at YYZ include the following (not counting NW pre-meger):

727-200
737-200
757-200
DC-9-51
MD-88
MD-90
A319


User currently onlineKLSMB From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3047 times:

Why are there no Delta SLC-YYZ flights? It seems like a logical city pair and SLC has some great connections to cities in the US Northwest.

25 FlyASAGuy2005 : oh, and I do have a timetable for Q2 2005 and it show most of ATL-YYZ being a 73S (internal code for a 732). After that a/c was retired, MANY markets
26 yyz717 : Rarely. GThe occasional charter. DL used to sked the 732 on YYZ-ATL as mentioned above. DL flew YYZ-SLC in summer 08 with the M90. Route was downgrad
27 Viscount724 : AC (Jazz) also briefly operated SLC-YYZ. I believe it started in June 2006 and was dropped sometime in 2007. If it didn't work for AC with their majo
28 par13del : So do US carriers fly multiple RJ because Canadians require frequency or because they were looking to lower cost, is the tax so high that 3 RJ's with
29 MNMncrcnwjr : from 8/2008 - 4/2009 I flew weekly for eight months STL - YYZ via NW / DL, usually thru DTW but occasionally via MSP . DTW -YYZ on Sunday evening was
30 DCA-ROCguy : That, of course, isn't the point. The point is that if Canada weren't fundraising off of airline passengers, and taxes were lower, there'd be even mo
31 NorthStarDC4M : Those small businesses and universities are not the ones paying for full fare tickets, nor are they likely to be frequent (2 trips a MONTH+, not 3-4
32 SLCUT2777 : DL operated SLC-YYZ from 2006-2009 and at one point they were using an MD-90. But the merger with NW made it more practical to route passengers throu
33 9252fly : As mentioned already in a few posts,AC launched it first a few years ago and DL responded a few days later with their own flight. Seems DL wasn't abo
34 brilondon : This would allow them to schedule two or three flights at more convenient times spread out over the day and capture more of the market to DTW, NYC ar
35 hjulicher : Although DTW doesn't grab any of YYZ's catchment area, DTW gets almost all of the traffic originating is Southwestern Ontario up until London, which h
36 brilondon : I don't kow where you get 500,000 from as Windsor ,ON. only has about 200,000 people living there and its economy is hinged on the automotive industr
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