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FT: China Blocks Multibillion Airbus Order  
User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2755 posts, RR: 4
Posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 29869 times:

According to Financial Time China has blocked an Hong Kong Airlines order for planes worth 3.8 billion dollars at list price due to be formally announced at Paris air show. The reason for blocking the deal is that China is furious about the planned Emission Trade Scheme also known as ETS.

Here is the link: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c4ce5aa0-9e4b-11e0-8e61-00144feabdc0.html

In an earlier deleted thread, I posted another link about China warning about severe consequences for Europe if it goes through with the planned tax. This was an article written by aviation week. It says China will deny European airlines the rights to land in Chinese airports if the E.U. goes through as planned.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...%20Emissions%20Trading&next=10


Since this is a hot potato politically, think twice before posting and provide links for your opinions. Otherwise this thread might end up being deleted as well.


Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
106 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 29897 times:

As I wrote in the other thread:

1. The airlines need the A380
2. In a trade war, China would have to lose much more than Europe.

3. The Chinese premier comes to Berlin this weekend. I'm sure, they'll sign the contract in the presence and with a little politely pressure of chancellor Merkel.

[Edited 2011-06-24 04:26:03]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2755 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 29706 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 1):
In a trade war, China would have to lose much more.

Do not underestimate the Chinese determination. After Liu Xiaobo got the Nobel peace prize last year, the Chinese has cut of many Norwegian-Chinese ventures. They are still upset.

Willy Walsh at BA urges the E.U. to stop a potential trade war that will hurt the European airline industry.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...ade-war-emissions-trading-airlines



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 29552 times:

If this is true, who ordered the ten A380s?


The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlineflyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 29553 times:

IMO China has more to loose than the EU if they are determined to pull through with their political stunts. I guess time will tell who has the bigger balls!


Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 29490 times:

Regarding the meeting in Berlin, the Chinese government is also under pressure because of the case Ai Weiwei.


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2755 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 29385 times:

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 3):
If this is true, who ordered the ten A380s?

I believe that is why it was never announced at the show. Just talked about.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 5):
Regarding the meeting in Berlin, the Chinese government is also under pressure because of the case Ai Weiwei.

I hope you are right OldEuropean that Europe has enough power to pressure the Chinese. But the way I see it. The Europeans need China, more than China needs Europe. I know Europe has won wars against the Chinese, but this time I fear it might be the other way around.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12868 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 29365 times:
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Quoting KFlyer (Reply 3):
If this is true, who ordered the ten A380s?

Hong Kong Airlines/Hainan. They're also the customer for the 15 748i.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 29162 times:

Quoting oykie (Reply 6):
I know Europe has won wars against the Chinese, but this time I fear it might be the other way around.

I don't think so. Beside of Germany, Europe mainly imports goods from China. Their economy still lives from exports which can be troubled by punitive taxes of the richest economy of the world with a population of more than 500 Mio people.



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlinejfk787nyc From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 28573 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
Quoting oykie (Reply 6):
I know Europe has won wars against the Chinese, but this time I fear it might be the other way around.

I don't think so. Beside of Germany, Europe mainly imports goods from China. Their economy still lives from exports which can be troubled by punitive taxes of the richest economy of the world with a population of more than 500 Mio people.

China in the recent years has set it sights on actually changing they have started to understand since the start of the recession that they need to build internal demand rather then being a export based economy.

Hence the reason that everything is becoming so much more expensive in China and salaries went up almost 500%.

China's has now over 80 million people who are making 60000 USD per year and higher, And by the end of this decade China will probably have one of the world's largest populations of millionaires.

This China is not China of 1990 things have changed and all China is doing now is flexing muscles gearing up for internal usage, And this is the reason why the Chinese market is so lucaritive to the Avation industry.

The future of the industry lies with China and not with the European Union or the United States


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 7626 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 28354 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 1):
2. In a trade war, China would have to lose much more than Europe.
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
I don't think so. Beside of Germany, Europe mainly imports goods from China. Their economy still lives from exports which can be troubled by punitive taxes of the richest economy of the world with a population of more than 500 Mio people.

My opinion, I think you equate China a bit too much to Western Society, if China decides to cease trade with Europe or do anything to deny it citizens European products and services, resulting in European nations doing the same, whose citizens and business are likely to make the most protest and whose governments are more likely to cave in to the demands of their populations?
One can argue the financial numbers, but at the end of the day, what really counts is which government has maximum control over their population, last I checked, China is not a democracy in western terms.

Additionally, China had much more nations rushing to give them development money to take advantage of their massive population, lower cost, and loose environmental standards versus China going out into the world soliciting funds for national development.


User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1117 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 28299 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 1):
The airlines need the A380

If they do, they will be ordering dozens by now. And by the time they desperately need the A380, they would have moved towards building their own mega jets.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 1):
In a trade war, China would have to lose much more than Europe.
Quoting flyAUA (Reply 4):
IMO China has more to loose than the EU if they are determined to pull through with their political stunts. I guess time will tell who has the bigger balls!
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
I don't think so. Beside of Germany, Europe mainly imports goods from China. Their economy still lives from exports which can be troubled by punitive taxes of the richest economy of the world with a population of more than 500 Mio people.

Clearly you guys need a serious reality check. Both the European and American economies are in a precarious position, and the recent meltdown exposed the weaknesses of the current global economic system. At the same time, the economy which powered through, emerged stronger, and was even the undercurrent that kept the global system going was, tada, China. When the next meltdown occurs, and some believe will happen as soon as the end of this year, you will see which economies will be collapsing and crying out for help from the World Bank.

And if you myopically think the Chinese economy is so heavily dependent on exports and nothing else, reality check once again. The so-called richest economy in the world which you believe can "trouble China" also happens to be the world's biggest debtor, and the country which lent them the most money is, tada, China. This did not happen by chance, and is long known to be a defensive move by China. If the US dares do anything against China's core interests, you can be sure China will make the US pay...literally or otherwise. Even the Americans themselves know this, and they realised how vulnerable they are during the recent crisis. And yes, some European countries are either begging for Chinese help (occasionally refused) or already in the Chinese balance sheet. The impending visit to Europe is to demonstrate China's willingness to help Europe. Not the other way round.

Ultimately in the closely intertwined global economy of today, every trading country is going to need its partner to stay healthy. But if any one of them decides to slap on taxes and the other retaliates, both will suffer, but do not assume the party which suffers more is going to be China.

Quoting oykie (Reply 6):
But the way I see it. The Europeans need China, more than China needs Europe. I know Europe has won wars against the Chinese, but this time I fear it might be the other way around.

  



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 28200 times:

I don't think the EU is seeing "who will win what." I honestly believe that China needs the EU more than the EU needs China, but that point is moot. This is horrible for both sides, and I'm sure the EU will be the bigger person and come up with some kind of compromise. In the grand scheme of things, and I'm sure this will incite some nasty comments, I don't think even the EU will thing that ETS is worth a potential trade war, and I'm sure Airbus and their lobbyists are gonna be busy trying to get this all changed.


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8646 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 28163 times:

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 9):
China's has now over 80 million people who are making 60000 USD per year and higher, And by the end of this decade China will probably have one of the world's largest populations of millionaires.

So? That's 80 million people still subsidizing 1.3 billion earning peanuts. China is still a socialist economy, last I checked.
Yes they are creating internal deman but they are still decades away from not being an economy primarily of cheap exports. China needs the World more than the World needs China. The only country that hasn't figured that out, unfortunately, is the US.


User currently offline777jaah From Colombia, joined Jan 2006, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 27340 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 10):
their massive population, lower cost

In fact, many companies are changing that view and starting to look to other regions. For example many conuntris in Latinamerica have labour costs almost as cheap as China's. In fact, China's labour costs has risen significantly in the last decade (Still cheaper than most), loosing some of their advantage in those terms against some other countries. And that's normal, that's the result of industrialization and improvement of economic conditions of the population.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 11):
And if you myopically think the Chinese economy is so heavily dependent on exports and nothing else, reality check once again. The so-called richest economy in the world which you believe can "trouble China" also happens to be the world's biggest debtor, and the country which lent them the most money is, tada, China. This did not happen by chance, and is long known to be a defensive move by China. If the US dares do anything against China's core interests, you can be sure China will make the US pay...literally or otherwise.

As I see it, China is heavily dependent on their trade counterparts, and that's completely understandable in a globalized world. Also, The EU and USA depend on China. Neither of them want to get into a fist fight with the other.

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 9):
they have started to understand since the start of the recession that they need to build internal demand rather then being a export based economy

That's the key to become the biggest economic power. You get all those millions of chinese enough income to start consuming, and then we'll see China pushing the USA out of the 1st place as the biggest economy. In a rather smaller scale, this is just what happened in Brazil with Mr Lula, who through his economic policies, moved some 6million people out of poverty into the middle class segment....and we all know how Brazil is doing.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
Hong Kong Airlines/Hainan. They're also the customer for the 15 748i.

That's quite a good amount of seats they'll be having in their hands. How's their fleet right now??

777jaah



Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
User currently offlineflyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 27169 times:

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 11):
Clearly you guys need a serious reality check.

Oh please, give me a break! Just because you see things differently you don't need to go telling people they need a reality check. Extremely arrogant of you!

If China goes through with their muscle flexing, Airbus will sell 10 A380s less, and I will go buy my Chinese products from thailand instead. The world will continue to exist and life goes on. I never fancied visiting China in the first place, so I as an individual am not losing anything. Big deal!

I hate it when people exaggerate the so-called "crisis" and "meltdown" to back their views, just because they have no better argumentation. Things sometimes get cheaper, things sometimes get more expensive. So what!   

Furthermore, if ETS applies to the rest, why would their highnesses feel they should be exempt? It's about time the world became more responsible towards the environment. We have already done enough damage to the atmosphere as it is!

[Edited 2011-06-24 07:43:08]


Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 759 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 27029 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 1):
As I wrote in the other thread:

1. The airlines need the A380
2. In a trade war, China would have to lose much more than Europe.

I think you'll find its the other way around.
China will surpass the US some time around 2025 as the largest economy in the world. While the GFC has left Europe and the US severely financially damaged China has emerged as a powerhouse. They have around $3 trillion in cash and a similar amount in US bonds.
Europe is struggling with potential debt defaults in various member states - it is in no position to be attempting to dictate to other foreign nations how they behave or what taxation regime they should impose. The ETS tax on airlines is a crude attempt to extend European sovereignty around the world - may have worked 200 years ago but it wont work now.
Major European and US firms are queuing up to get a foothold in the booming Chinese market - they willingly hand over intellectual property and technology that has taken decades (and $ billions) to develop to secure lucrative business contracts. The bargaining power is very much with the Chinese.
The center of economic power is moving from west to east - I think the EU cant win on this one.

Regards,

StickShaker


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 7626 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 26917 times:

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 14):
In fact, many companies are changing that view and starting to look to other regions. For example many conuntris in Latinamerica have labour costs almost as cheap as China's.

That may be true, but you are also dealing with a population that has been much more exposed to western influence and work practises, it may not matter much for a small company, but once large corporations start setting up shop and making huge profits, the push to increase wages and benefits will occure much faster than how it occured in China.
There is a reason why "sweat shops" in these regions are small scale, compared to those in Asia, revolutions have been fought in Latin, South and Central America much more than have occured in China, that's not all due to the form of government.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9735 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 26635 times:

All sides lose in a trade war.It was indeed interesting to note that the airline which was reported to order 10 x A380 at the Parus Ai Show came up - surprise, surpirse with an order of 15 747-8i. The ETS could have to do with that and hopefully Chancellor Merkel and the other European leaders will get the message. Even if the US, China and Russia do not retaliate, European carriers will be severely affected by this single-sided stupid-tax.


Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlinesaloman From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 26138 times:

Quoting flyAUA (Reply 15):
It's about time the world became more responsible towards the environment. We have already done enough damage to the atmosphere as it is!

And you think bureaucrats in Brussels are going to be the ones to save the environment? Airlines across the globe already have plenty of real incentive to reduce emissions, hence the advent of aircraft like the Dreamliner, C-Series, and improved turboprop engines. Less fuel burn equals more profit.

At the same time I find it a bit rich that China all of a sudden has some great opposition to government overreach. News like this makes me lose faith in the state of economic policy!


User currently offlinePanAm1971 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 428 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 26043 times:

Relax. This is a negotiating position by the Chinese before the Germany visit. Both sides have powerful incentives to find a compromise. They will... and the order will go through.

User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1739 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 26039 times:

What taxes Europe puts on air transportation in Europe is Europe's business, so long as they are fairly applied to all. So far as I have read this applies to flights landing and taking off in Europe. China needs to make nice on this issue.

China may become a lot more dependent on imported food over the next 10-20 years. It doesn't make any difference what they think they have bought in terms of land and rights to food in other countries. No sovereign nation will ship food out if that government needs the food locally. They as well as all the other countries need to make nice - silly bellicose statements may be fun or provide self-satisfaction. They don't keep the economy turning.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 25646 times:

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 11):
And if you myopically think the Chinese economy is so heavily dependent on exports and nothing else, reality check once again. The so-called richest economy in the world which you believe can "trouble China" also happens to be the world's biggest debtor, and the country which lent them the most money is, tada, China. This did not happen by chance, and is long known to be a defensive move by China. If the US dares do anything against China's core interests, you can be sure China will make the US pay...literally or otherwise. Even the Americans themselves know this, and they realised how vulnerable they are during the recent crisis. And yes, some European countries are either begging for Chinese help (occasionally refused) or already in the Chinese balance sheet. The impending visit to Europe is to demonstrate China's willingness to help Europe. Not the other way round.

Perhaps you should not be quite so myopic...right or wrong (I don't have the numbers in front of me) oldeuropean was referring to the European Union. The United States is also putting up a stink about the ETS. The Europeans are faced on both sides by unhappy friends. This thing is dead in the water IMHO.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
Their economy still lives from exports which can be troubled by punitive taxes of the richest economy of the world with a population of more than 500 Mio people.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8646 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 25649 times:

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 16):
China will surpass the US some time around 2025 as the largest economy in the world.

So? With 1.3 billion it's an embarassement that they're not already the largest economy. China has no food, fuel, or clean water to support 1.3 billion people living a higher standard of living. It's that simple.


User currently offlinePanAm1971 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 428 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 25423 times:

BTW-I have news for the poster who said "Europe needs China" more than the other way around-- In fact everybody needs everybody else in the global economy. That is a fact. And to the poster who said that Latin America has nearly the same labor costs as China--It's not just labor costs that give China an advantage. They are not a free society and that can be quite an incentive to companies trying to flee labor and environmental regulations that cost them competitive advantages in the global economy. You can do things in China that you cannot even dream of doing in Latin America... or just about anywhere else-with the exception of SE Asia. Someday, this ugly reality will have to be addressed... but IMHO it won't be anytime soon. Advantage China.

25 ac033 : Not one single airline in China "needs" the A380, B748i is big enough for them. They don't have any routes mature enough to support an A380 year roun
26 seabosdca : Indeed. The ones that still have a huge housing glut to work through are the most likely candidates to need help. The US and most EU countries are mu
27 AirNZ : Except that statement can only be termed entirely your opinion. Irrespective of thoughts one can safely assume that any airline which orders aircraft
28 ikramerica : So true. Being a net importer, it's the EU that would have to buckle. Otherwise, they would end up with a severe shortage of goods and no manufacturi
29 YULWinterSkies : Yes, I'm sure China realizes that too. But they want to be sure they get their share of the cake, since HK's plan was to purchase the aircraft while
30 Wsp : They usually increase customs duty. This will not suddenly cut off supply but will make it cheaper to manufacture elsewhere. China has invested in gr
31 glideslope : China. Hands down from their position. It will be interesting to see if Russia gets involved in this with any comments. This is not a time to test Ch
32 glideslope : Not in a global recession.
33 Grid : Both would have a lot to lose. The EU would pay more for goods, China would lose exports and a number of jobs, which the party would like to avoid be
34 Post contains links LAXintl : There is an ongoing thread about the proposed EU aviation ETS scheme and how the US is also strongly opposed. U.S. Demands Exemption From E.U. ETS (by
35 Wsp : Can you explain that? I can not see the causal connection. As an importer I don't stop looking out for better deals just because overall demand this
36 workhorse : Well done! I wish more countries could stand up against this insanity.[Edited 2011-06-24 15:59:50]
37 airfrnt : Try again. They survived just fine without that plane. Not a chance. First of all, it would never escalate that far, but Europe's energy dependence i
38 Grid : Some things you won't be able find elsewhere. Some things you find elsewhere still won't be cheaper even if customs difference is taken into account.
39 KC135TopBoom : Actually, China's economy is now based on real estate holdings and debt servicing of most of the EU as well as the US. China can dictate to the EU, a
40 morvious : Airliners did survive with 767's, md-11's, dc-10's etc. Etc, so what's your point? They do look forward. What plane do we need for the next 20+ years
41 fiscal : An ETS is based on flawed or should I say fraudulent science. Yes, be responsible for the environment, and be good stewards, but's lets remember that
42 Grid : Not sure how you got that quote. I did not say that in Reply 38. Someone else said it in Reply 37.
43 ThirtyEcho : Old news. China has bolted the A380 deal and is switching to the B747-8. Check it out anywhere on the web.
44 ltbewr : Perhaps too this is an attempt to get the big aircraft makers to do deals to put major production ops in China. Maybe they will give on the ETS rules
45 AusA380 : One of the challenges from the Australian perspective (and applies to SE Asia and China) is that is is not necessarily far. For example, the Middle E
46 BMI727 : Good for China. Intentionally wrecking you largest export market isn't really good business. They need to prop up the US lest they have nowhere to se
47 StickShaker : Umm ... that was flyAUA's quote (reply 15) ... not mine. I'm with you on this one fiscal. Cheers, StickShaker
48 ac033 : Hainan can't even maintain 3 weekly PEK-
49 Post contains images cerecl : Like any society there is a continuum of wealth distribution in China. There is a rather large middle class in China. Your view is way too simplistic
50 ac033 : HOW? What routes? 748 is big enough for them
51 707lvr : China is perpetually annoyed with the United States and plays these stunts with us all the time. As brilliant as they may seem, they are still amateur
52 fiscal : Yeh, Sorry about that....I need to be more careful....
53 warren747sp : Airbus needs China just to survive. So they better play nicely with their biggest customer. How Eu wants to milk money out of the rest of the world is
54 Post contains images scbriml : Yes, because, and not many realise this, Airbus actually runs the EU. Shocking but true.
55 N14AZ : If this is old news then could you please check the latest news about that A 380 order? Thanks in advance. Maybe you quickly inform China Southern ab
56 BMI727 : No they don't. That's every bit as silly as saying that Boeing will have jumped the shark if American orders Airbus.
57 Post contains images astuteman : About as dumb as it gets Then again, maybe not. Quite possibly the most mindless comment I've seen on A-net. And boy, I've seen some don't tell me -
58 kaitak : To my mind, the US, China and other non-European governments (not to mention, European nationals) have good reason to distrust the European agenda as
59 Grid : Are you referring to green energy development, which China has taken great steps to be leader in or the actual environment? The environment is terrib
60 Baroque : And it has also emerged with a banking system about as healthy as the US sub-prime market in early 2007. Unlike the US sub-prime market though it doe
61 rwessel : You're off by a factor of ten. Effects start at about 1% concentration (10,000ppm), and you don't expect semi-healthy people to start dying until 7+%
62 ac033 : In post 58 i mentioned, China Southern has a mature Australian market i can see why they ordered 5 A380. 2daily SYD and 1 daily MEL and the market is
63 Baroque : And what do you suppose causes the lowering of the oxygen content? An increase in carbon dioxide. Ever been in black damp? Not really. The internatio
64 Post contains links rwessel : "although replacement of oxygen by CO2 and water vapor via combustion is certainly a common way for that to occur" http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medi
65 Post contains images oykie : Thanks. I tried to reply to this thread, but once I clicked, Prieview Post it said the thread was deleted. The current state of the U.S and E.U. econ
66 worldliner : If its been blocked, who could of ordered the 380's at PAS?
67 AirNZ : Could you explain that to me further please?
68 Post contains links LAXintl : No its very much alive - U.S. Demands Exemption From E.U. ETS (by commavia Jun 22 2011 in Non Aviation)
69 airfrnt : China's blocking the A380 because they understand that this is a place they can hurt airbus a lot. Airbus has projected close to 200 plus A380's to b
70 Grid : It's not really forcing views on others anymore than any other sort of regulation that impacts foreign companies, which is pretty much any regulation
71 multimark : Th West is not so far removed in time from manufacturing greatness. What would be lost to a Chinese trade war would not be impossible to replace by pr
72 par13del : The wording in their statement in the other thread link is that the US can be exempt if they implement similar measures which the Europeans regard as
73 Post contains images astuteman : So temporarily blocking 10 A380's "hurts Airbus a lot"? Unbelieveable. Like I said, this thread is worthy of the toilet and little else, if this the
74 Grid : The West is not removed from manufacturing greatness at all. If you are speaking only of the West, it still produces a great deal. The USA alone was
75 aerokiwi : I don't think this is a case of which economy needs which one more - as already explained, the world is fairly interdependent now. But the impact of a
76 cerecl : If CA orders A380 tomorrow, it will get the plane in 2015 at the earliest. Then we have to think about the next 20 years. PEK-LAX PEK-JFK PEK-SFO PEK
77 ac033 : PEK-LAX 748 PEK-JFK 77W,748 mix PEK-SFO 77W PEK-FRA 77W (announced) Other times these widebodies runs PEK-SHA,PEK-CAN,PEK-SZX sectors That is why the
78 warren747sp : Those of u think that Airbus without the Chinese market will survive as a successful entity is just being delusional.Look how the French and Germna le
79 Post contains images Baroque : Yes, well, just breath on a 10% concentration atmosphere of carbon dioxide, apparently it is good for you! Oh well it might not be all that good for
80 cloudyapple : If the aircraft are placed through Hong Kong Airlines, a Hong Kong registered company with supposedly majority Hong Kong interests as shareholders an
81 Post contains links and images oykie : So I see Something must have gone wrong. On to the topic, the Wall Street Journal is also running a story about China stopping the 10 A380 order: Her
82 kaitak : The Chinese PM, Wen Jiabao is in the UK at the moment and although the UK is obviously not a Euro member, the crisis in the EU/Eurozone will not doubt
83 Post contains images cerecl : That's CA's 2011-12 plans. What about 2015-16? What about 2020? It is quite likely that PEK will get a second airport in the near to medium future. T
84 cerecl : Of course we may never know, but I wondered what CA's choice would be if A380 is available at the same time as 748i.
85 Grid : Airbus and Boeing would survive without the Chinese market, but they would be smaller, but still, successful, companies. Your last sentence is slight
86 AirNZ : So please explain to me how I am delusional......obviously will be very interested in hearing your factual views, and not just a statement. As a matt
87 Lufthansa : No he is right. They ordered the Trident for example, when everybody else knew it was a basket case of an aircraft because gov types listened to BEA
88 Grid : So people should not make money from this because it is for the good of the environment? Or they should disclose that their interest is not completely
89 md80fanatic : Of course, A.net is the wellspring of eternal optimism. If it wasn't a statement like "China needs us more then we need them" would be met with derisi
90 oykie : In what way does paying Al Gore money (He owns the carbon trading company) making your trip less pollutant and more environmental? The emperor's new
91 seabosdca : Think for a second about what would happen to China if it plunged either the US or the EU into economic crisis by selling large quantities of bonds.
92 ltbewr : As to the Chinese deciding the airlines based in their country not ordering A380, and perhaps the 747-8/i perhaps there are some practical reasons and
93 Post contains images oykie : That is a good point. And that is why the U.S dept will not make it insolvent. No one would think of triggering that button. It would suicide.
94 ac033 : Obviously not base on current demand, did i ever said that they order base on current demand??????????????? I am not Air China, i don't have statisti
95 Post contains images lightsaber : Interesting the Chinese are taking this position. There is tremendous political pressure to cut Chinese imports to protect the economies of Greece and
96 Grid : You beat the bag out of that straw man - I did not say that paying Al Gore makes a trip less pollutant or more environmental. I said he might be buy
97 Post contains images flyAUA : I never said the situation wasn't fragile. Just that it is greatly exaggerated and that the exaggeration is annoying. In fact I tried this a while ba
98 Baroque : And the Grecks might mention that the German trade surpluses are a major reason for the strength of the Euro and that Greece would benefit from a wea
99 Post contains images oykie : How does paying for pollution make the trip neutral? IMO this is like paying for your sins. Forgive me Al Gore - for I have polluted. You do realize
100 Post contains images flyAUA : LOL I think we all know it doesn't make a trip neutral. Maybe the idea behind it is similar to say the london city centre congestion problem. Lets ch
101 Grid : flyAUA answered this pretty well. First, you need to stop misrepresenting other poster's arguments in order to make them easier to defeat. Second, ma
102 oykie : So that I do not misinterpret you. Do you realise that when I say that Al Gore will run away with your money, I literally mean that he gets your mone
103 Post contains links flyAUA : I believe the EU ETS is not linked to Al Gore's version of emissions trading in any way. http://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/ets/index_en.htm I once w
104 Post contains images Baroque : To which one might add that if (and that is a BIG if) Al Gore were benefiting from ETS, that is the way free market economists keep telling us is the
105 Burkhard : It gives a competitive advantage to those who polute less. So it it just the application of market rules.
106 Post contains images flyAUA : Ohhh, that's another way of seeing it! Didn't think of that. Though this would only work if the same rules applied to everyone
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