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Ashtrays In The Lavatories  
User currently offlineRaptor1090 From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2011, 82 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5670 times:

I recently traveled from EGCC-OMDB in J class on an EK A380, A6-EDK and noticed that in the lavatory just beneath the lock, there was an ashtray with, ironically, a no smoking sign on it.
So I was wondering, what's the point of having one?
:/



[Edited 2011-06-24 07:53:32]

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejetfuel From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 2226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5659 times:

So if some idiot does light up they will use that and not set fire to the waste bin


Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5057 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5625 times:

Quoting Raptor1090 (Thread starter):
So I was wondering, what's the point of having one?

Also ... it is a "No-Go" item. If it is missing, or not functioning, the aircraft can not depart!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2445 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5523 times:

Quoting Raptor1090 (Thread starter):
So I was wondering, what's the point of having one?

Because the FAA requires it:

AD.nsf/0/6A1D491DCDC47B1B86256A3300697D39?OpenDocument&Highlight=smoke" target="_blank">http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...97D39?OpenDocument&Highlight=smoke

To quote the wording from the latest AD:
"The AD was prompted by fires occurring in lavatories, which were caused by, among other things, the improper disposal of smoking materials in lavatory waste receptacles. The actions specified by that AD are intended to prevent such fires. This amendment revises the existing AD to allow dispatch relief in the event a lavatory door ashtray is missing."



Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5873 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5302 times:

They're also required in the cockpit. Which makes no sense, either, because smoking isn't allowed in the cockpit, just as it isn't allowed in the cabin.
But the FAA doesn't ever really seem to update requirements...


User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2445 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5290 times:

Maybe this link will work better:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...97D39?OpenDocument&Highlight=smoke

.



Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5243 times:

That's pretty awesome. I wondered the same thing but never thought to ask. A lot of times I thought the plane had been manufactured prior to the ban, but then I realized how long ago the ban was put into effect.


ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
User currently offlineAirportugal310 From Tokelau, joined Apr 2004, 3661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5214 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
They're also required in the cockpit. Which makes no sense, either, because smoking isn't allowed in the cockpit, just as it isn't allowed in the cabin.
But the FAA doesn't ever really seem to update requirements...

Makes no sense, you're right, but anecdotal evidence on these boards suggests that smoking occurs on the flight deck in other countries. One size doesn't fit all I suppose...

How convenient...just found this in Travel/Polls
Airlines Where Smoking Is Still Allowed? (by Jackbr Jun 22 2011 in Aviation Polls)

[Edited 2011-06-24 15:10:26]


I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineGT4EZY From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 1794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5160 times:

Like someone else has said. It is there as a safety device (if you like) for those who do break the rules and smoke. Atleast then there isn't the risk of a fire......in theory. Of course, many still drop the end into the bin, few realising the potentially dire consequences.


Proud to fly from Manchester!
User currently offlinejetskipper From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 402 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5128 times:

They are required by most governing agencies for safety. Even though smoking is prohibited on aircraft, history shows that if people choose to break the regulation they will smoke in the lavatories. The regulators want there to be an acceptable cigarette butt receptacle to keep people from throwing cigarettes in the waste paper baskets and starting fires. However since most people breaking the rules and smoking probably won't choose to a proper receptacle, every waste paper basket is equipped with an automatic fire extinguisher.

User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5124 times:

I noticed on Republic Airways 170 or 175s that there is a warning in the bathroom to not flush the toilet while sitting on it. What will happen? Like the smoking, I don't want to try firsthand.


ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
User currently offlineYflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1061 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

Quoting Grid (Reply 10):
I noticed on Republic Airways 170 or 175s that there is a warning in the bathroom to not flush the toilet while sitting on it. What will happen? Like the smoking, I don't want to try firsthand.



Allow Adam Savage from Mythbusters to demonstrate:

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-airline-toilet-test.html

Alright, I'm not sure what that proved, but it's kind of funny.  


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25653 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5017 times:

Quoting jetskipper (Reply 9):
They are required by most governing agencies for safety. Even though smoking is prohibited on aircraft, history shows that if people choose to break the regulation they will smoke in the lavatories.

A few recent excerpts from Transport Canada daily incident summaries:

WestJet flight WJA145, Boeing 737-600, was en route from Vancouver to Calgary when a male passenger was caught by flight crew smoking in the lavatory. The crew requested local police meet the passenger upon arrival in YYC.

WestJet Boeing 737-700 (operating as WJA1118) was conducting a scheduled flight from Toronto to Las Vegas. A female passenger was suspected to be smoking in the lavatory. The captain requested authorities meet the flight in Las Vegas.

WestJet Boeing 737-800 (operating as flight WJA628) was on a scheduled flight from Vancouver to Toronto. WestJet staff reported that the aircraft was en-route when the flight crew asked for police to meet the aircraft on arrival for an individual who was suspected of smoking in the aircraft's lavatory.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4989 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 2):
Also ... it is a "No-Go" item. If it is missing, or not functioning, the aircraft can not depart!


Not quite true!

Per A380 MMEL 25-22-05 Lavatory Door External Ash Tray:

Item 1) Airplanes with more than one external door ash tray installed. May be dispatched with one missing provided it is replaced within 10 calendar days.

Item 2) Airplanes with one external door ash tray installed. May be dispatched with one missing provided it is replaced with 3 calendar days.


User currently offlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days ago) and read 4816 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 13):

It is true. You are quoting a MEL for the external door ashtray, longhauler was talking about the ashtray located on the inner door face. On the planes I work on, the ashtrays on both sides of the door are the same. So if the inner ashtray is missing you just take one from the outer door face.


User currently offlinepqdtw From Netherlands, joined Aug 2008, 154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4737 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
They're also required in the cockpit. Which makes no sense, either, because smoking isn't allowed in the cockpit, just as it isn't allowed in the cabin.
But the FAA doesn't ever really seem to update requirements...

I have always been amused/bemused/irritated by the fact that in the crew rest bunks it is required that the No-Smoking sign be illuminated in each bunk. WTF... can anyone imagine a crew member going on their restbreak and stoking up a cigarette while 6 other colleagues are trying to sleep in adjacent bunks. LOL. But that's our FAA...

At one time on the NW 744's, the No-Smoking light was so bright in each of the flight attendant crew rest bunks that FA's were taking Kotex out of the lavs and sticking them up over the No-Smoking signs to dim their bunks. Some crew members forgot to remove them at the end of the flight, and the FAA fined NW a substantial fine when, during an audit, they discovered a whole rest compartment with 8 bunks, each "retrofitted" with Kotex brand light-dimming napkins.

Crazy, but true.

[Edited 2011-06-25 02:22:56]

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5057 posts, RR: 43
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4568 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 13):
Not quite true!
Quoting yeelep (Reply 14):
It is true. You are quoting a MEL for the external door ashtray, longhauler was talking about the ashtray located on the inner door face.

I likely also depends on the governing/licencing body that approved the MEL. While the manufacturer makes strong suggestions it is the FAA or Transport Canada, that does the final approval. The two may differ.

As Air Canada lost an aircraft with fatalities due to unknown causes with a cabin/lav fire, they too may have had some input with regard to ashtrays in or neat lavs.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinecaetravlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 909 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4565 times:

It's funny, I was just having that exact same thought about the ashtrays when I was on an ERJ between EWR and CHS last night. I actually drew the same conclusion, that it was because some people might disregard the no smoking signs.


A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4532 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
I likely also depends on the governing/licencing body that approved the MEL.
Quoting yeelep (Reply 14):
It is true. You are quoting a MEL for the external door ashtray,


I quoted the MMEL (Master Minimum Equipment List) developed by the the OEM, Airlines and the Regulatory Agencies! There is only one MMEL.

The MEL (Minimum Equipment List) is an airline document based on the MMEL. The MEL can be more restrictive than the MMEL, not never less restrictive! Each airline could have their own MEL.

All MMEL's are available on the net!


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5057 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4525 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 18):
The MEL can be more restrictive than the MMEL, not never less restrictive! Each airline could have their own MEL.

Exactly.

And at my airline the ashtrays are a no-go item.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4485 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 18):

Correct, but it doesn't change the fact that the MEL your'e quoting is for the exterior side of the door. There is no MEL relief for a missing ashtray inside the lav, it is a no-go item.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4478 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 19):
And at my airline the ashtrays are a no-go item.


Then they have choose to create their own MEL item for 25-22-05. The problem is when you create your own MEL, is that you can not fall back on the MMEL. So you cancel a flight with 400 passengers because a $5 ash tray is missing? Not a real smart idea!


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5057 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4432 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 21):
Not a real smart idea!

Air Canada was recently named the second safest airline on the earth, after British Airways.

A very smart idea.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4420 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 21):

No, they have chosen not to allow the application of that MEL, not created their own. In the future the airline could make a change to their maintenance program that who allow that MEL.

Why would you cancel the flight, just call maintenance and they will bring out a replacement. Now, if they don't have any ashtrays in stock at that station, then your'e right.

Congrats to Air Canada and any airline recognized for their safety.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4389 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):
Air Canada was recently named the second safest airline on the earth, after British Airways.
A very smart idea.


The reason your operator has a MEL item on interior ash trays is because they have chosen to install ash trays on the interior of the lavs. The is no requirement for an interior ash tray. The only FAR/JAR requirement is that there is an ash tray on the exterior of the lavatory.

Referene FAR 25.853

(g) Regardless of whether smoking is allowed in any other part of the airplane, lavatories must have self-contained, removable ashtrays located conspicuously on or near the entry side of each lavatory door, except that one ashtray may serve more than one lavatory door if the ashtray can be seen readily from the cabin side of each lavatory served.


So they choose to install an interior ash tray the lavatory. The MMEL only addresses the exterior ash tray and any item not mentioned in the MMEL is required for dispatch.

So to remove any confusion your operator has chosen to add the interior ash tray to their MEL, even though it is required for dispatch because it is not mentioned in the MMEL.

Again I say, not a smart idea!


25 longhauler : I guess it all depends if you or your loved ones are on an aircraft with a cabin fire. And, for the record, in my 25+ years with Air Canada, I have n
26 Post contains links 474218 : I remember Air Canada Flt 797 very will, it was the reason all lavs are equiped with smoke detectors, but not ash trays. Not Air Canada but: http://w
27 yeelep : Agreed Don't agree, Its not possible to make up your own MEL's. I believe we are talking about three different scenarios. At my airline we have ashtr
28 474218 : Never worked with an airline that didn't write their own MEL! Only if they are installed. But installation is not required.
29 longhauler : No, but it is the reason why Air Canada is so brutal, almost maniacal, with our yearly on board cabin fire training and testing. Yes, pilots too. AC
30 yeelep : You must have seen the horse twitch, guess he isn't dead yet. Of course they write their own MEL's , but they are based on the MMEL provide by the OEM
31 Viscount724 : Canadian Aviation Regulations require a smoke detector INSIDE the lavatory and an ashtray OUTSIDE. Relevant excerpt: Lavatory Fire Protection 705.76
32 charlienorth : You would inop the affected lavatory and not cancel the flight.
33 yeelep : I would install a new ashtray, or install a ashtray removed from the cabin side of the door and then MEL the cabin side ashtray. If I gave the impres
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