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Delta's Response To Inaccuracies On Saudi Article  
User currently offlinepqdtw From Netherlands, joined Aug 2008, 153 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 12607 times:

After the heated comments that were posted on this forum earlier in the week about Saudi Arabian Airlines' entrance into SkyTeam, I thought it would be appropriate to dispel the mis-information that some posters wrote regarding the original topic. After discussing this with a moderator, I was allowed to open a new thread with Delta's response.

In short, Delta does not codeshare, nor are they planning to codeshare with Saudi Arabian airlines. They have an interline agreement for onward travel and luggage transfer, similar to other American and European carriers. Other US carriers that have the same agreement include USAirways and American Airlines, neither of which fly to Saudi Arabia either.

The original article contained misinformation, first of all referring to Delta's SkyTeam alliance. Delta is not the owner of SkyTeam any more than Air France-KLM or Korean Air or Czech Air is. I feel that Delta was unfairly maligned in the article, which subsequently was picked up by numerous media outlets. Without fact checking on their own, these other media outlets repeated the information in the original article.

Why did the writer of the article choose to single Delta out? Who knows? Was it a dislike for Delta due to a personal experience? Was it common misunderstanding of how airline alliances work on the part of the general public? Who knows.

Below is Delta's response to the media storm that was created. As an employee of Delta, I feel that my company has been singled out unfairly and I would like to set the record straight on this forum. I am not speaking on behalf of Delta; there are spokespersons assigned to that task.

Here is the press release:

Delta Air Lines does not discriminate nor do we condone discrimination against any of our customers in regards to age, race, nationality, religion, or gender, Delta said in a statement Friday. Delta does not operate service to Saudi Arabia and does not codeshare with any airline on flights to that country. Delta does not intend to codeshare or share reciprocal benefits, such as frequent flier benefits, with Saudi Arabian Airlines, which we have confirmed with SkyTeam, an Amsterdam-based 14-member global airline alliance.

Delta's only agreement with Saudi Arabian Airlines is a standard industry interline agreement, which allows passengers to book tickets on multiple carriers, similar to the standard interline agreements American Airlines, US Airways and Alaska Airlines have with Saudi Arabian Airlines, the statement said. All of the three global airline alliances: Star, which includes United Airlines; oneworld, which includes American Airlines, and SkyTeam, which includes Delta have members that fly to Saudi Arabia and are subject to that country's rules governing entry.

Saudi Arabian Airlines follows the same government-created visa rules that any carrier serving Saudi Arabia must. That includes the nearly a dozen carriers who are members of other airline alliances that fly to the Middle Eastern country every day.

Passengers who fly any international carrier on SkyTeam or another alliance must meet the requirements to gain a visa entry into Saudi Arabia.

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinenetjetsintl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 12458 times:

Quoting pqdtw (Thread starter):
In short, Delta does not codeshare, nor are they planning to codeshare with Saudi Arabian airlines. They have an interline agreement for onward travel and luggage transfer, similar to other American and European carriers. Other US carriers that have the same agreement include USAirways and American Airlines, neither of which fly to Saudi Arabia either.

That had to be Delta's response, no other way around.

I'm certain behind closed doors the U.S Government gave Delta a few days to fix/clear the matter, had Delta actually codeshared and follow Saudi Arabia's rules, Delta would be infront of congress doing a "carpet dance" right about now


User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 863 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 12400 times:

Quoting netjetsintl (Reply 1):

That had to be Delta's response, no other way around.

I'm certain behind closed doors the U.S Government gave Delta a few days to fix/clear the matter, had Delta actually codeshared and follow Saudi Arabia's rules, Delta would be infront of congress doing a "carpet dance" right about now

Why is throwing SV under the bus the right response?

The article's allegations are in themselves false. American citizens of Jewish faith are not barred from entering Saudi Arabia. This whole shitstorm is built on a false premise.


User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 12309 times:

I don't see SV getting thrown under the bus, but yes, the whole thing is built on a false premise. That is what happens when you are the biggest (or close to being the biggest) in your industry. Nike and Walamrt were treated in similar fashion.


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User currently offlineacidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 12263 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

I want to set some ground rules for this thread. The last thread pertaining to this topic became a trainwreck real fast. Let's keep this on topic and clean. Thanks!


Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 863 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11916 times:

Quoting Grid (Reply 3):
I don't see SV getting thrown under the bus, but yes, the whole thing is built on a false premise. That is what happens when you are the biggest (or close to being the biggest) in your industry. Nike and Walamrt were treated in similar fashion.

They definitely were. In Delta's response to this, they went as far as pledging that wouldn't even exchange FF revenue with SV.


User currently offlineflyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11835 times:

I appreciate Delta's response. When a news outlet spreads propaganda against a company in the name of "news" its always sad to see the companies suffer, especially those in an Industry I feel tied to (aviation). I hope those few people who are so quick to believe such news come to hear and understand the truth.


"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1649 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11698 times:

I think the original writer of the post 'singled out' DL because he lives in Detroit, where DL is the dominant airline. Although he makes the claim that Detroit pax do not have much choice when it comes to flying-a quick look at wiki will reveal that although DL is the dominant airline there are plenty of other options.
I'm actually surprised DL does not intend to offer FFP-earning reciprocal benefits, which is sort of the standard. I can't think of any two airlines in any alliance that don't have that.
I really do look forward to seeing what kind of 'arrangements' SV will make once it becomes a SkyTeam member. First thing someone should address is the visa issue-technically speaking pax are allowed 18 hours without need of holding a pre-landing transit visa, but is this actually implemented all the time? For both men and women? And what about during the Hajj season (which takes up around 4-5 months of the year)? I read somewhere that during the Hajj season Muslims cannot transit JED but can do so in RUH, whereas the restrictions does not seem to apply to non-Muslims. Stuff like that. If you don't have this sort of information online, on a website run by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or the SV website, for example, then a lot of people won't want to connect through Saudi Arabia.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12773 posts, RR: 100
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11335 times:
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Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 2):

Why is throwing SV under the bus the right response?

DL had to distance itself from SV due to these sensationalist, if sensationalist, press reports. The issue is that there is enough fact to create such articles.  

Every one should read 'The Lexus and the Olive Tree" and "The World is Flat" by Freedman. Basically, if investors are being hurt by a nation's policies, they will look for opportunities to end that financial hurt.

It was also easy fodder for *A and OW to take advantage of. All it takes is one individual who saw an advantage weakening Skyteam to sensationalize the Saudi Kindom's policies.

One issue for me is that if I travel to either the mid-east or India, I'm most likely to go with a party that has been to Israel numerous times (I used to work in the diamond trade and some friends are in banking and that has included trips to Israel). Having to circumvent restrictions is annoying. Customers tend to avoid annoying.

To be blunt, if SV is going to take full advantage of being a Skyteam member, there will have to be Saudi concessions for transfer passengers or articles like this will crop up from time to time. Notice I said 'transfer passengers' and I will avoid discussion on any other visa type as I do not believe that would be a constructive conversation from an aviation perspective.

While I know it will be tough to keep this topic civil, I do believe the restrictions on transfer passengers impacts every airline in Skyteam and is thus a valid topic for a.net.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13004 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10519 times:

The initial article that probably prompted the original controversy, a version of of it posted in the removed post, was from an Israeli source. The majority of the Israeli media is very sensitive to any possible slight by anyone showing a deference to Saudi Arabia or other countries that consider Israel an enemy state or don't recognize it. The Israeli media source probably misunderstood the policy of Delta as to any business arrangements they have. Add to that a strong law in the USA banning any discrimination or boycott of doing business with the Israeli government or companies based there by USA based companies or non-USA companies that do business in the USA, and it was no wonder a controversy occurred.

I would also note that perhaps Delta did not make it clear in their initial press releases or policies posted in their website or at ticket selling sites in context the special rules as to travel to Saudi Arabia booked via Delta or where someone takes a connecting flight via Delta.


User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10390 times:

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 5):
They definitely were. In Delta's response to this, they went as far as pledging that wouldn't even exchange FF revenue with SV.

I suppose that would mean Delta did throw SV under the bus if Delta exchanges FF revenue with all other airlines in the alliance.



ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
User currently offlinegoblin211 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10355 times:

I would say all this just spiraled out of control based on no evidence nor any actions taken by DL. For once, a company isn't at fault for something that was a blow to their reputation. I think all this will be ancient history in just a couple weeks.


From the airport with love
User currently offlinepqdtw From Netherlands, joined Aug 2008, 153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9545 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 10):
I would also note that perhaps Delta did not make it clear in their initial press releases or policies posted in their website or at ticket selling sites in context the special rules as to travel to Saudi Arabia booked via Delta or where someone takes a connecting flight via Delta.

I don't think that Delta posted any press releases about Saudi Arabian airlines joining SkyTeam. I believe that was SkyTeam itself. As far as posting policies regarding travel to Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabian Airlines has not yet officially joined SkyTeam, so there has been no need to post any policies regarding transfers.

Travel to Saudi Arabia is not bookable on Delta's website. Cities will show if you type in an airport code, but cities all over the world show to which there are no connections. If you actually attempt to check flight connections between city pairs, flights to Saudi Arabia do not show up. Connections are listed on the SkyTeam website, however with Air France.

Interestingly, if you go to the Air France website, it IS possible to book travel from the US to Saudi Arabia. Air France flies to both Israel and Saudi Arabia, as do British Airways and Lufthansa. So, again, why is Delta being singled out? I don't see any reports of Air France or Lufthansa or British Airways being called "No Jew Airlines" as the original article writer wrote, and those airlines actually fly to Saudi Arabia. I still fail to see why Delta's name was mentioned at all in the original article.


User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9435 times:

Quoting pqdtw (Reply 13):
Interestingly, if you go to the Air France website, it IS possible to book travel from the US to Saudi Arabia. Air France flies to both Israel and Saudi Arabia, as do British Airways and Lufthansa. So, again, why is Delta being singled out? I don't see any reports of Air France or Lufthansa or British Airways being called "No Jew Airlines" as the original article writer wrote, and those airlines actually fly to Saudi Arabia. I still fail to see why Delta's name was mentioned at all in the original article.

The only reason for the writer not calling out other airlines would be is because the writer was probably writing for the U.S. audience. That doesn't fully explain it of course.



ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7558 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8252 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 7):
I'm actually surprised DL does not intend to offer FFP-earning reciprocal benefits, which is sort of the standard.

Yes, I agree. I wonder what purpose it serves DL to have SV as SkyTeam member if they will not codeshare or have mileage accrual and redemption benefits.

How about KL, AF and OK? There are sizeable Jewish populations in the Netherlands, France and Czech Republic. Are these three carriers subject to this bad press for admitting SV into the alliance? Will these airlines also refrain from entering into codeshare agreements with SV?



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineindolikaa From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8181 times:

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 2):
Why is throwing SV under the bus the right response?

I would give real money to answer that question and not get banned for doing it.

Quoting goblin211 (Reply 12):
I think all this will be ancient history in just a couple weeks.

Unfortunately, no. Congress thinks they need to get involved. Apparently Delta's supposed transgressions require a federal probe...or so says Illinois senator Mark Kirk.

I disagree with Senator Kirk...



Vote for Pedro
User currently offlinetharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7665 times:

For me, the bigger disappointment is how quickly that article got spread to other news outlets. Somebody writes some nonsense, despite having pretty much zero understanding of the subject, and next thing you know, it's everywhere.

Incidentally, I think the editor of the original source published some corrections, and apologized for the lack of quality control.

[Edited 2011-06-26 18:19:46]

User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 863 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7543 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):
Will these airlines also refrain from entering into codeshare agreements with SV?

AF codeshares with SV and is their sponsor into skyteam. SV is planning to increase services to CDG to connect with AF flights. The Saudi government is negotiating an increase in the bilateral as we speak.


User currently offlinedb373 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 236 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7501 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):
Quoting directorguy (Reply 7):
I'm actually surprised DL does not intend to offer FFP-earning reciprocal benefits, which is sort of the standard.

Yes, I agree. I wonder what purpose it serves DL to have SV as SkyTeam member if they will not codeshare or have mileage accrual and redemption benefits.

It serves DL no purpose. But again, like the original poster pointed out DL is not the owner of SkyTeam and while they may have veto power over who joins, maybe one of the other large members had a compelling reason for why SV should be included.



Keep Delta My Delta
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7558 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7461 times:

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 18):
AF codeshares with SV and is their sponsor into skyteam. SV is planning to increase services to CDG to connect with AF flights. The Saudi government is negotiating an increase in the bilateral as we speak.

So I guess we can expect most SkyTeam carriers to have standard mileage accrual, redemption and status benefits with SV (and in some cases, codeshares), except for DL?



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2679 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7232 times:

Although I agree with DL in their decision not to have reciprocal FF miles earning and redemption, what is the point of Saudia Arabian joining an alliance. It seems like that is one of the most basic benefits of an alliance. It seems all Star members do this with all other Star members. Will the other Sky Team members have reciprocal FF with them?

User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2949 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7054 times:

Few questions that come to my mind:

* Does DL ban Saudi nationals boarding their planes?

* If the US has business/political engagements with Saudi Arabia, why is DL being asked to explain it's stance w.r.t SV joining SkyTeam and it's relationship with DL?

* If the people of America detest Saudi Arabia so much, why don't they ask their govt. to ban all SV flights to the USA and subsequently all bilateral relationships?

* Saudi Arabia has flights from UK, France, Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Turkey, Singapore so why is this hue and cry about DL just being under the same umbrella as SV? What's wrong if they code share?



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10321 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6514 times:

Actually, DL was telling the actual truth about their relationship with SV.......since they don't join ST until 2012, at this time all DL has with them is a standard interline agreement......none of the other things would be in effect, yet, anyway.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7558 posts, RR: 43
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6472 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 24):
Actually, DL was telling the actual truth about their relationship with SV.......since they don't join ST until 2012, at this time all DL has with them is a standard interline agreement......none of the other things would be in effect, yet, anyway.

When SV effectively joins the alliance in 2012, should we expect DL SkyMiles passengers to earn miles when flying SV and vice versa? Will there be redemption benefits?



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10321 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6446 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 25):

I don't think so, unless Saudi Arabia's policy is changed. If DL reverses course at that time, THEN it will be a huge PR gaff.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
25 Mir : SV is definitely being thrown under the bus by DL not intending to codeshare with them even though they're in the same alliance. I don't see why DL s
26 mayor : I wonder if the vote among the members has to be unanimous?
27 Quokka : DL isn't just not code-sharing with SV according to the press release but Emphasis added. Perhaps DL thinks that there isn't a sufficient advantage on
28 directorguy : A business is a business,and SkyTeam realized that whatever moral scruples they have about Saudi Arabia, that market is also the second-largest airlin
29 Post contains images LAXintl : Who handles SV @ JFK these days? Were they not in T3 for ages with Delta? Yeah it is kinda odd. Its not like Saudia is some obscure carrier or the Sau
30 413X3 : America suffered enough through his failed policies for 30 years. No thanks
31 tharanga : I would expect there to be a codeshare eventually, or at least, there would have been before this bizarre 'article' came out. It appears that somebod
32 Post contains images VV701 : And if DL had not been more or less forced to issue its Press Release by the actions of the American media and the likes of Senator Kirk it would hav
33 Grid : I hadn't realized he had that much influence. Does Delta codeshare with every airline in SkyTeam? If it does but it is not codesharing with SV, then
34 Post contains images Markam : Why exactly would Delta be doing a "carpet dance" in front of congress? Last time I checked SV flies in and out of the United States and no one has s
35 TeamInTheSky : I find this extermely hard to believe, but at this point, it would be hard for them to back away from it when SV does join Skyteam.
36 panamair : No, it does not. I believe DL does not currently codeshare with Air Europa (UX), or Kenya Airways (KQ) or even TAROM (RO).
37 Delimit : I think it is important to stay very clear on the issue when discussing this topic. This has nothing to do with Jews; this is about Israel. Saudi Ara
38 mayor : Well, there's your answer.......SV has not been thrown under the bus any more than these airlines have been. Save your breath. People have a hard tim
39 Delimit : Sure it has if DL plans on not allowing FF reciprocity. The comments on the DL blog thread about this were seriously disappointing. Of course, the wh
40 luckyone : Or more appropriately, MEA.
41 TeamInTheSky : I believe to really make this issue go away Delta should file suit against the Huffington Post and USA Today or demand a front page correction and ap
42 Delimit : Not more appropriately. MEA has not yet entered SkyTeam.
43 rwSEA : Malaysia does not block passports with Israeli stamps. Israelis themselves do need visas to visit Malaysia, and they aren't easily granted.
44 Grid : First, what would the claim be? Defamation? That is really hard to prove. Second, filing a suit would only keep this in the public's eye longer. You
45 Post contains images mayor : All true. The media knows this, as well as the people bringing up the allegations in the first place. Why should they be bothered to get the facts st
46 Post contains links mayor : Here's an update (or retraction) to the original story by the Religion News Service, date 6/24/11: "RELIGION NEWS SERVICE EDITOR'S NOTE: The RNS story
47 tharanga : Of course. Are people going to demand that Boeing not sell civilian aircraft to SV, just because people flying to Saudi arabia and complying with its
48 mayor : I am, too, but I seriously doubt that it has the same impact that the original article, picked up by Huffpost, has. I found Religion News Service' we
49 cslusarc : What I don't like about Saudi Arabia is that their society hasn't learned the virtue of the separation of religion and state. Right now most Westerner
50 Markam : While you are right that the lack of separation between religion and state is one of Saudi Arabia's problems, I would say that the issue at hand is m
51 VV701 : Very sound advice. I doubt that there is a country in the world that does not require the pre-issue of an entry visa under certain circumstances. Per
52 DocLightning : Let's tell it like it is. It's not "misinformation," it's outright lies. Intentionally so. The lies were promulgated as part of a general anti-Muslim
53 Markam : I bet that was fun! Kudos on getting them in, in my experience there is usually a (understandable) zero tolerance approach to inmigration issues by C
54 VV701 : It was sometime ago. Well, actually it was almost 21 years ago in July 1990. Of course the regulations may have changed.
55 EddieDude : Really? So from the moment that SV was accepted as a future member, DL already knew they would not have reciprocal mileage accrual and redemption ben
56 Markam : Sure, as I said, just out of curiosity. Anyway, thanks for the extra info, and again, that must have been quite an adventure!
57 pnd100 : First my rant about the story itself: This whole episode highlights the flash fire that quickly turns into a blazing inferno through the media. The pr
58 Viscount724 : That's not correct. For example, thousands of US citizens of Iranian origin travel to Iran to visit friends and relatives. Similarly, many US citizen
59 Grid : That is more about lack of diplomatic relations (U.S. and Iran) or a travel ban, with exceptions (U.S. and Cuba). A handful of countries in the Middl
60 Post contains images luckyone : I believe there's a difference between diplomatic relations and official recognition. There are only five countries (at least according to wiki :P) t
61 Markam : While diplomatic relations are broken, the U.S. does recognize Cuba and Iran as countries, which is not the case with Saudi Arabia and Israel. You ar
62 pnd100 : Yes as mentioned by the Markam, Grid & luckyone, there is a difference between official recognition & diplomatic relations. Citizens of the U
63 Post contains links VV701 : The relationship between the USA and Cuba is very different to that between Saudi Arabia and Israel where the former refuses to recognise even the ex
64 indolikaa : Quoting ojas (Reply 21): * If the people of America detest Saudi Arabia so much, why don't they ask their govt. to ban all SV flights to the USA and s
65 Grid : If that were all it took for recognition of a state, we would have many more countries than we do now ... or at least a Palestinian one.
66 SA7700 : As some members continue to choose to violate forum rules, this thread will be locked for further contributions. Any posts added after the thread lock
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