AWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1416 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10758 times:
Ex-Mexicana birds? I figured WN/FL would have made a play for those.
n471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1182 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10715 times:
Very interesting as there are 25 717's parked at VCV and most of us thought that these 25 would go to SWA to replace the 737-500's----guess we were wrong again!!
packcheer From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 323 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10662 times:
At what point will HA realistically not be able to take more aircraft (717's or anything else for that matter)?
I'm specifically asking about aircraft without range to make the US Mainland in revenue service.
There will come a point when traffic between the islands is at a maximum level right? Do the 717's serve anything outside the Hawaiian Islands?
sxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1225 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10619 times:
Quoting packcheer (Reply 3): Do the 717's serve anything outside the Hawaiian Islands?
n471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1182 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10575 times:
Quoting packcheer (Reply 3): At what point will HA realistically not be able to take more aircraft (717's or anything else for that matter)?
I'm specifically asking about aircraft without range to make the US Mainland in revenue service.
There will come a point when traffic between the islands is at a maximum level right? Do the 717's serve anything outside the Hawaiian Islands?
I agree that HA is making a mistake in opting to go for more intra-Hawaii capacity----they seem to still labor under the delusion that people want to fly to Honolulu and then change planes. They ought to be doing more direct flights to the various islands from the mainland but they seem to think that things are going back to the 80;s where this was how it was done. Alaska has it figured out and when SWA and Allegiant get going they will be returning those 717's.
Hiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2118 posts, RR: 4 Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10543 times:
Quoting packcheer (Reply 3): At what point will HA realistically not be able to take more aircraft
When the islands sink...grin.
Now the thought of HA using some of the 717's as mainland feed for their gateways is an interesting one....but I would think they would need quite a few more to do it.....if fuel was cheaper then the economics would be better...hmmm.
n7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1495 posts, RR: 12 Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10521 times:
I believe these are ex-Midwest/MexicanaLink birds (although not all ex-Midwest aircraft entered service with MX before its shutdown).
There were a couple 717's stored several months ago but they went to AirTran because they were forced to take them on lease.
Unless there are 3 birds stored from another operator I'm not aware of, it is surprising Boeing is leasing out 3 of the 25 ex-Midwest planes. Boeing Capital has made a massive effort to place all 25 with one airline on one lease - hoping to avoid peace meal leasing deals with a handful of airlines. It would appear those efforts have failed.
n471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1182 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10441 times:
[quote=n7371f,reply=7]Boeing Capital has made a massive effort to place all 25 with one airline on one lease - hoping to avoid peace meal leasing deals with a handful of airlines. It would appear those efforts have failed.
jpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4239 posts, RR: 29 Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10380 times:
Quoting n471wn (Reply 5): I agree that HA is making a mistake in opting to go for more intra-Hawaii capacity----they seem to still labor under the delusion that people want to fly to Honolulu and then change planes. They ought to be doing more direct flights to the various islands from the mainland but they seem to think that things are going back to the 80;s where this was how it was done. Alaska has it figured out and when SWA and Allegiant get going they will be returning those 717's.
Well yes, its true the trend has been going to more direct flights, but with HA's recent expansion to HND/ICN/KIX, there is little choice. Clearly that will be stimulating some inter-island services into the future. But still, i'm surprised by this since it seemed the inter-island frequencies were down a bit since last year. It's good to see though, 18 beautiful 717s flying around the islands. Can't think of a better home for a couple of my beloved Midwest birds.
As far as HA's business model, I agree they could be bigger on some point to point routes. It seems logical to do some more OGG flying such as OGG-LAX/SFO. But for KOA and ITO, I think their wide-body aircraft are just too big for those markets at this point. I don't think they want to be getting another fleet type- narrowbody- for this purpose at the moment.
HAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2466 posts, RR: 53 Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10335 times:
Quoting n471wn (Reply 5): I agree that HA is making a mistake in opting to go for more intra-Hawaii capacity----they seem to still labor under the delusion that people want to fly to Honolulu and then change planes.
These days the majority of the passengers during the busy morning & evening rushes are locals going to/from family & work. The tourists add to that rush mid-day when they arrive from the mainland, which is where most of the added capacity is going. You say it's a delusion that people fly to HNL and change planes. I think the stuffed capacity of HA's planes says differently. Right now there simply aren't enough seats going around the islands in the middle of the day. Also, a lot of the traffic is tourists going from one island to another - splitting their vacation between two islands.
HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
n471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1182 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10251 times:
Quoting HAL (Reply 10): Right now there simply aren't enough seats going around the islands in the middle of the day. Also, a lot of the traffic is tourists going from one island to another - splitting their vacation between two islands.
This is great to see my beloved islands busy once more!!
sxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1225 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10207 times:
Quoting n7371f (Reply 7): Unless there are 3 birds stored from another operator I'm not aware of, it is surprising Boeing is leasing out 3 of the 25 ex-Midwest planes. Boeing Capital has made a massive effort to place all 25 with one airline on one lease - hoping to avoid peace meal leasing deals with a handful of airlines. It would appear those efforts have failed.
So its a bad thing to lease more planes to existing customers? I would think that is a low cost, low risk option...
n7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1495 posts, RR: 12 Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10135 times:
Quoting sxf24 (Reply 12): So its a bad thing to lease more planes to existing customers? I would think that is a low cost, low risk option...
Economies of scale. Boeing's hope was to find a new 717 customer who wanted all of them. If they lease a few here, a few there, the remaining 717's become harder to lease because you're customer base is being narrowed down to current 717 operators as they'll be the only ones who can add incremental 717's - economies of scale.
sxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1225 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10050 times:
Quoting n7371f (Reply 13): Economies of scale. Boeing's hope was to find a new 717 customer who wanted all of them. If they lease a few here, a few there, the remaining 717's become harder to lease because you're customer base is being narrowed down to current 717 operators as they'll be the only ones who can add incremental 717's - economies of scale.
So, Boeing should say tell HA to go buy a new inter-island aircraft from Airbus?
ExpressJet_ERJ From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 827 posts, RR: 4 Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10022 times:
Would a E190/E195 or C series have range to make the west coast? I love the 717 but it is so limited on what it can do.
HAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2466 posts, RR: 53 Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9849 times:
Quoting ExpressJet_ERJ (Reply 15): Would a E190/E195 or C series have range to make the west coast? I love the 717 but it is so limited on what it can do.
No, they wouldn't, and they're not ETOPS certified. I don't quite understand why the negativity on the 717 for HA. It has a very specific job to do - fly interisland within Hawaii. HA isn't asking the 717's to do anything else, like fly across the ocean. For that, there is the 767 and A330. An airplane that works well for the 20-minute leg & 16-legs/day flying that constitutes interisland ops, simply won't work well for long range flying. Many people may like the Southwest theory - one plane to do everything - but that doesn't work for all airlines. That's why airlines like HA will always have more than one type of aircraft.
HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5217 posts, RR: 6 Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9617 times:
Quoting HAL (Reply 16): r the 20-minute leg & 16-legs/day flying that constitutes interisland ops,
And there you have it! That is BRUTAL flying for a jet aircraft, most other types would collapse after a few years of that! Douglas could design and build REAL aircraft, unfortunately the market doesn't want real aircraft anymore except for specialist ops, such as HA's inter island flying and QFLink's long distance, low traffic routes, where this aircraft really, really shines.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6134 posts, RR: 13 Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9545 times:
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 1): Ex-Mexicana birds? I figured WN/FL would have made a play for those.
Are they MX planes? I wondered the opposite...if they were FL airplanes. I'm pretty sure WN plans to retire the 717s ASAP. I would expect a few to go in 2012. I could be wrong, but that is my feel. I say that because there were articles about WN getting a new replacement plane for the 717 several months ago. That tells me they are gone sooner than later.
WNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1317 posts, RR: 9 Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9403 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 19): I'm pretty sure WN plans to retire the 717s ASAP. I would expect a few to go in 2012. I could be wrong, but that is my feel. I say that because there were articles about WN getting a new replacement plane for the 717 several months ago. That tells me they are gone sooner than later.
You'll likely see the -300's/-500's start to go Bye Bye before the 717's. The company is very excited about acquiring and operating the 717.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
Boeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1769 posts, RR: 25 Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8793 times:
I've always wondered why HA doesn't pick up some Dash 8-400Qs or something of the sort for their smaller inter-island routes. The capacity is a bit lower than the 717 but it would be the ideal aircraft for short inter-island flights under an hour. Great CASM from what I understand, and good short-field performance if needed. I realize it wouldn't be a replacement for the 717, but certainly a good compliment on routes that require frequent service but not neccesarily the size of the 717.
jpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4239 posts, RR: 29 Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8525 times:
Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 23): I realize it wouldn't be a replacement for the 717, but certainly a good compliment on routes that require frequent service but not neccesarily the size of the 717.
Q400 is certainly a nice aircraft, but that really doesn't describe any of HA's routes.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
25 HNLPointShoot: The "smaller" interisland routes (such as HNL-MKK/JHM/LNY) are served by WP, which uses the Dash-8-100 for those airports; a Q400 would almost certai
26 HA_DC9: I'm more blown away that HA decided to purchase the exisiting 15 717s they have. There was an interview with Mark Dunkerley (HA's CEO) about a year or
27 chrisair: Thank god. I can't wait to see those go away, and I can't wait for the 717s to join the fleet! Where else could a plane with 2,000 mile range fly fro
29 MEA-707: But, is it confirmed that it are three of the 25 Midwest/Click birds? Theoretically, apart from AirTran, also Qantaslink, Blue1 or Turkmenistan Airlin
30 BrianDromey: AFAIK Blue 1 have just let their ARJ's go, so it;s unlikely to be from them.
31 777fan: It's such a delusional concept that UA offers codeshared (with HA) tag-on flights to the other islands through HNL! 777fan
32 Highflier92660: http://www.staradvertiser.com/busine...ine_give_state_tourism_a_lift.html Here is another article with a chart indicating Hawaiian Airlines with 83% o
33 enilria: Everybody is replacing planes right now and WN already said it is looking for a replacement of the 717s for intermediate term, 3-5 years. There were
34 sunking737: Since the 717 is a spin off of the DC-9 it will be around for a long time. Why buy new when used will do?
35 lightsaber: Wow. I'm not surprised. I recall reading that during busy seasons Hawaiian puts as many as 17 cycles/day on a 717! In 20 years they put 95,132 cycles
36 Bluewave 707: Smart move on HA's part! At least with the 717, it can haul some cargo in the belly; not to mention, coolers, golf clubs, surfboards & other stuff
37 RoseFlyer: Having the range to fly to mainland is what also makes a plane less suitable for short island hops. Finding a plane that can do both is hard. The E19
38 Homsar: I don't want to divert this thread too much, but where can I find these articles? I did a google search, and the closest I found was http://atwonline
39 seabosdca: What is the design cycle limit for the 717s? 90,000?
40 HNLPointShoot: Speaking of DC-9s, it's probably worth noting that HA flew DC-9s from 1966 (when they first picked up the -10) all the way until about 2002, when the
41 RoseFlyer: I would guess it is probably 75,000, but I do not know. The 737s that Aloha was flying were designed for 75,000 cycles, but some had well over 100,00
42 RWA380: Was the 717 "born" prior to Boeings take over of Douglas? If so, what was the name to be used? It is a great riding plane. Why wasn't it ordered by mo
44 Homsar: Your quote was cut off up there. However, to attempt to answer what I think your question is: 1) NW did take a serious look at the plane, but, IIRC,
45 lightsaber: I was thinking about this order yesterday a bit. After a discussion with coworkers, one tidbit came out. If HA flies them like their prior DC-9s (or e
46 lightsaber: I should note that in 2022 HA always has the option of buying further used 717s. Sadly, I expect WN to rotate out the fleet in 5 to 7 years. I do have
47 KC135TopBoom: Boeing effectively killed off the B-717 as it was competing with the B-736 (which itself failed) and the B-73G.
48 bahadir: E190s can be ordered with ETOPS.. The problem is that airplane becomes a nightmare in terms of CASM when you are running it for long haul with only 1
49 bjorn14: If the CS100/300ER were ETOPS they could make the trip. WP was going to acquire 3 Dash 8-400s, they did recieve 1 but then go! entered the market and
50 lightsaber: With winds and the long diversion allowance, it takes a much longer margin to do SFO-HNL than one extra nm. I've heard 3,100nm, but I'll let pilots a
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except for specialist ops, such as HA's inter island flying and QFLink's long distance, low traffic routes, where this aircraft really, really shines.
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