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TAM Applies For Sao Paulo-Mexico City  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11458 posts, RR: 58
Posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4514 times:
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TAM applied today (July 5) to Brazilian ANAC for the rights to fly from Sao Paulo (GRU) to Mexico City (MEX)
This is one of the routes that connect two among the top 5 largest cities in the World nowadays operated only by AM with 9x weekly service.

Schedule:

JJ8112 GRU 0925 MEX 1500 A332 Daily
JJ8113 MEX 1725 GRU 0655 A332 Daily

Route to begin eff. October 30th 2011.

Mexico City will be TAM's 9th long haul market.

Service will begin with reduction on GRU-CDG schedule from 2x daily to Daily. Expected to be upgauged in 2012 (CDG) to 77W



Source: ANAC website / Hotrans


[Edited 2011-07-05 21:29:41]


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7616 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4586 times:

Thank you for the update Lipe. Interesting that the northbound flight will be daytime, but I guess during the northern hemisphere winter it is not a bad idea because of the 4 hour difference... will be interesting if the northbound flight is retimed during the northern hemisphere summer to a nightly rotation (which would mean that the JJ plane would spend most of the day parket at MEX).

I guess we can assume that JJ will use MEX' T1. Will MEX be served with 2-class or 3-class A332s?



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineMexicana757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3047 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4578 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):

Thanks for the update. I was wondering when they were going to announce services.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
JJ8112 GRU 0925 MEX 1500 A332 Daily
JJ8113 MEX 1725 GRU 0655 A332 Daily
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1):
Interesting that the northbound flight will be daytime, but I guess during the northern hemisphere winter it is not a bad idea because of the 4 hour difference...

Didn't Mexicana operate a similar schedule? Red eye outbound MEX-GRU and day flight on the inbound, GRU-MEX?


User currently offlinerobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4590 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1):
Will MEX be served with 2-class or 3-class A332s?

I thought all TAM A330s are 3-class?


User currently offlineMCOGVADCA From China, joined Oct 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4525 times:

Great to hear. TAM is doing a fantastic job of filling the holes in their network. It's great to see Brazil finally have an international carrier of which it can be proud after the sad demise of VASP and VARIG.


12 months:pvg hkg bkk doh mxp nce zrh iah lhr gva iad clt lax nrt sin mnl ceb del jai gay vns szx zuh mfm icn can
User currently onlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4517 times:

Thanks for the update Lipe. Have they ever flown to MEX before ?
EddieDude, they are all three class like rob has said. 4F/24J/195Y (edit: says so SeatGuru. Per their own seatmap and other sources, it appears to be 4F/36J/183Y )

[Edited 2011-07-05 22:50:31]


The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11458 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4331 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1):
Interesting that the northbound flight will be daytime, but I guess during the northern hemisphere winter it is not a bad idea because of the 4 hour difference

Eddie, i think it is due to the lack of aircrafts. They will use 2 A332 nowadays on GRU-CDG to introduce a second daily service to MCO and to introduce MEX.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1):
Will MEX be served with 2-class or 3-class A332s?
Quoting robffm2 (Reply 3):
I thought all TAM A330s are 3-class?

You're correct Rob, all A332 fleet nowadays have 3 classes.

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 2):
Didn't Mexicana operate a similar schedule? Red eye outbound MEX-GRU and day flight on the inbound, GRU-MEX?

In the first months, but they realized that the business flyer like to fly during the night.
However, AM-Transportes Aereos Meridionais (Brazil)">JJ is more of a competitor to AM with an extensive network in Brazil. Now we will see, considering the big portion of the market in my view are on Mexican side, how they will perform.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 5):
Thanks for the update Lipe. Have they ever flown to MEX before ?
EddieDude, they are all three class like rob has said. 4F/24J/195Y (edit: says so SeatGuru. Per their own seatmap and other sources, it appears to be 4F/36J/183Y )

Never flew to MEX.
The A332 despite configured with 4F / 36J / 183Y, most probably due to the flight time, and because they don't have crew rest area, will advertise 4F / 30J / 183Y blocking 6J for crew use.

Quoting MCOGVADCA (Reply 4):
It's great to see Brazil finally have an international carrier of which it can be proud after the sad demise of VASP and VARIG

Still slow... it took 5 years to resume MEX. Now in fact they covered almost all of the last flights performed by Varig in 2006, with one exception: they don't fly to MUC but rather to MCO, and have a stronger network to 8 long haul markets, 5 of which serviced thru 2 gateways or more.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinenetjetsintl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4332 times:

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 5):
Thanks for the update Lipe. Have they ever flown to MEX before ?

I don't think so

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
This is one of the routes that connect two among the top 5 largest cities in the World nowadays operated only by AM with 9x weekly service.

I find it hard to believe only one airline flies between these two cities, and that TAM took this long. Better late than never.

best of luck to TAM


User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1062 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4262 times:

Quoting netjetsintl (Reply 7):
I find it hard to believe only one airline flies between these two cities, and that TAM took this long.

That's how TAM's route planning works. They've been always conservative regarding their international network.

And finally AM will se some brazilian competition. Last time it had it was when RG went bust. Hopefully AM will counter-attack and launch MEX-GIG (ok, that was wishful thinking)



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlinejj8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4220 times:

Nice to see a brazilian carrier back to MEX.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
The A332 despite configured with 4F / 36J / 183Y, most probably due to the flight time, and because they don't have crew rest area, will advertise 4F / 30J / 183Y blocking 6J for crew use.



AFAIK, only 2J are blocked for crew use. I've been in many flights were 34J were used for regular passengers.

In fact, there is something curious regarding this. I've flow on PT-MVV last week, which is their newest A330, and seats 6H and 6K, which are the ones used for crew rest, are not the lie-flat seats like all the other J seats on the plane. They are standard recliner seats, which appeared to be their old J seat, but in the new fabric. I can't understand why they did that.



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11458 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4197 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting jj8080 (Reply 9):
AFAIK, only 2J are blocked for crew use. I've been in many flights were 34J were used for regular passengers.

They block 8 seats on JFK / LHR / MAD / FRA (when using the 332). MIA/MCO blocks 6 seats. The entire row 10 (last of the second business class section) is blocked and never available.

Quoting jj8080 (Reply 9):
In fact, there is something curious regarding this. I've flow on PT-MVV last week, which is their newest A330, and seats 6H and 6K, which are the ones used for crew rest, are not the lie-flat seats like all the other J seats on the plane. They are standard recliner seats, which appeared to be their old J seat, but in the new fabric. I can't understand why they did that.

I never noticed that.

Quoting AF086 (Reply 8):

And finally AM will se some brazilian competition. Last time it had it was when RG went bust. Hopefully AM will counter-attack and launch MEX-GIG (ok, that was wishful thinking)

It's too early, but would be a nice strategy to undermine JJ's territory and main feed to the new operation (not considering local O&D from Sao Paulo).



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinejj8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4125 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
I never noticed that.

This was the first time I saw also. All other JJ's A330s I've been on wasn't like this.

Quoting jj8080 (Reply 9):
They block 8 seats on JFK / LHR / MAD / FRA (when using the 332). MIA/MCO blocks 6 seats. The entire row 10 (last of the second business class section) is blocked and never available.

Never noticed that. I wonder why they don't use Y seats, leaving only 2J for the pilots.



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11458 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4015 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting jj8080 (Reply 11):
Never noticed that. I wonder why they don't use Y seats, leaving only 2J for the pilots.

Brazilian regulations in place force JJ to block Business Class seats for the crew, and they block 8 seats !!!



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1062 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4013 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
Brazilian regulations in place force JJ to block Business Class seats for the crew, and they block 8 seats !!!

They could opt for crew rest areas on their 332s, like they have on the 763/77W, but they chose not to because it would sacrifice cargo space so that's the next best thing that abides by brazilian law.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6297 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4035 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
Brazilian regulations in place force JJ to block Business Class seats for the crew, and they block 8 seats !

That is a lot of lost revenue.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5226 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3696 times:

Close to RG's schedule.

This flight will be succesful.

AM will go back to it's traditional 7X. Now it will be interesting to see how they'll deploy the 2 extra frequencies of the 777, will it go to EZE more or CDG?

g77



Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7616 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3669 times:

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 15):
AM will go back to it's traditional 7X.

Do you know why this is Ghost?

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 15):
Now it will be interesting to see how they'll deploy the 2 extra frequencies of the 777, will it go to EZE more or CDG?

I'd say EZE but I really don't know. Or maybe none of the above... AM has many options: increasing BCN from 6 to 7 weeklies, adding an 8th weekly frequency to MAD, adding a 4th weekly frequency to NRT, adding a 3rd weekly frequency to PVG. Who knows. Interesting!



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5226 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3640 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 16):
Do you know why this is Ghost?

AM loads have decreased a bit lately on the GRU-MEX.

My theory:

The moment MX has been gone, all foreign carriers have taken GOOD advantage of this. More flights and connections for travelers via:

BOG with AV, LIM with Taca Perú, SCL with LA and PTY with CM.

Lately I've double checked and instead of 9X 777, AM flew 7X 777 and 2X 762, so I wouldn't be surprised to see AM scaling back with JJ entrance flying 7X only with the 777.

JJ schedule is perfect for connections at GRU, just like RG did it.

And yes, it would be better for AM to deploy it on BCN and go 7X as well, or upgrade LIM, AM is doing incredibly great on MEX-LIM and maybe it would be good for AM to upgrade LIM with Boeing 762.


g77



Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3630 times:

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 17):
AM is doing incredibly great on MEX-LIM and maybe it would be good for AM to upgrade LIM with Boeing 762.

I wonder why? LP would respond by increasing frequency on the LIM-MEX route. Also, sooner or later LP will open a LIM-GDL route.


User currently offlineghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5226 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3582 times:

LP is doing great, but TA Perú is not. This one is stepping back 2 frequencies soon.

g77



Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3565 times:

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 19):
LP is doing great, but TA Perú is not. This one is stepping back 2 frequencies soon.

Aeroméxico does well on the MEX-LIM route due to the code-share agreement with LAN Perú S.A. LAN Perú S.A. places its code on AM's daily B738 service and AM places its code on LP's 6x weekly B763 service. AM also code-shares on LP's domestic flights to CUZ and JUL. Is TA decreasing frequency on the LIM-MEX route?


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11458 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3453 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 15):
AM will go back to it's traditional 7X. Now it will be interesting to see how they'll deploy the 2 extra frequencies of the 777, will it go to EZE more or CDG?

I don't think so Ghost. The point is they use a plane that instead would be parked at GRU and MEX during the day, but they need to do the same if they plan to go to EZE or CDG. EZE would be feasible but CDG i don't think so.
Where AM deploys 772's nowadays ? GRU and MAD ??

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 17):
The moment MX has been gone, all foreign carriers have taken GOOD advantage of this. More flights and connections for travelers via:

BOG with AV, LIM with Taca Perú, SCL with LA and PTY with CM.

I would say that MEX see less activity from Brazil during IATA summer. There's a huge demand for Europe and United States at this point, something that IATA winter, do not see that much. Also there will be a little more leisure traffic between Mexico and Brazil for the Brazilian summer (IATA winter)
Also, CM is covering and advertising specially Rio-Mexico and with JJ decision to run daylight GRU-MEX, it makes connections less interesting for people outside GRU (specially POA, CNF, GIG, BSB and MAO with 1 stop services from CM)

As i said before, JJ have a big network and will fight for the Brazilian portion of the traffic (which i believe accounts for 30%-35% of the passengers) but would be also looking to the premium Mexican traffic (specially those looking for First Class product) and people that like daylights.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineAM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3402 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 18):
I wonder why?

Does LP code share with AM? If not, I'd think most travelers are Mexican nationals, who had the Peruvian visa requirement dropped not so long ago and take advantage of AM connections, FF miles and ease of financing through their Mexican credit card, specially Banamex. This would apply to both tourists and business travelers.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 18):
Also, sooner or later LP will open a LIM-GDL route.

Interesting. Copa made it work so why not? I wonder what the market from GDL and MTY to Central and South America really is.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3352 times:

Quoting AM744 (Reply 22):
Does LP code share with AM? If not, I'd think most travelers are Mexican nationals, who had the Peruvian visa requirement dropped not so long ago and take advantage of AM connections, FF miles and ease of financing through their Mexican credit card, specially Banamex. This would apply to both tourists and business travelers.

Yes, LP code-shares with AM on the LIM-MEX route. AM code-share with LP on the route as well. At LIM, LAN operates two main banks. AM's flight enables LAN pax more options to connect via LIM to/from MEX from destinations such as BSB, CLO, COR, EZE, GRU, IGU, LPB, MDE, ROS, UIO, VVI, etc. along with the 13 other domestic destinations that LAN serves with-in Perú. LP currently operates LIM-MEX 6x weekly (B763) and will operate the route as a daily service soon. LAN operates a "multi-hub multi-destination" system where pax can connect to/from MEX via LIM and/or SCL. At SCL, LAN just retimed flights from AEP, COR, EZE, and MVD in order to offer rapid connections to/from MEX via SCL. Pax from ANF, ASU, CCP, GIG, GRU, IQQ, MDZ etc. also have the option of connecting to/from MEX via SCL.

Quoting AM744 (Reply 22):
Interesting. Copa made it work so why not?

LP already holds the route authority for LIM-GDL, but LAN will first operate LIM-CUN daily due to strong LFs on the route before increasing its presence into other secondary cities with-in México.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7616 posts, RR: 42
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3238 times:

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 17):
AM loads have decreased a bit lately on the GRU-MEX.

My theory:...I wouldn't be surprised to see AM scaling back with JJ entrance flying 7X only with the 777.

Sounds reasonable to me. Thanks.

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 17):
maybe it would be good for AM to upgrade LIM with Boeing 762.

Oh, that'd be great. But I am not sure it is very convenient to offer, say, 8 weeklies on 738s and 3 weeklies on 762s. On the one hand, it is always a good strategy to offer a consistent product. I would imagine a J-class passenger that does his first leg on the 762 will hate the other leg on the 738. Second, the AM 762s do not carry that many more passengers than the 738s, and this is relevant because the 762 is most likely much heavier and less fuel efficient.

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 19):
LP is doing great, but TA Perú is not

I have always thought this market cannot support three carriers, especially if the two largest ones codeshare with each other. Plus, LP has widebody service and great service, and AM has probably more loyal followers and more than one flight on certain days of the week. This clearly puts TA at a disadvantage... btw, doesn't TA have buy on board or something like that?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
Where AM deploys 772's nowadays ? GRU and MAD ??

Yes Lipe. And PVG via TIJ twice per week.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
25 SCL767 : AM might be able to lease or buy some of LAN's older B763s when LAN chooses to dispose of them; AM currently leases an older B767 from LAN. Over 4.5
26 EddieDude : What I mean is that out of the universe of MEX-LIM frequent travelers, it is safe to assume that the majority are Mexican and more likely to book wit
27 SCL767 : For LAN, LIM is becoming a major hub and LAN offers pax many connections via LIM, including MEX and CUN. LAN continues to increase frequencies on reg
28 ghost77 : They are covering MEX-MAD, 7X MEX-GRU, 7X MEX-TIJ-PVG, 2X MEX-EZE, 2X But the 2 extra frequencies to GRU have been done with 762. So, it's easier to
29 SCL767 : But wouldn't AM like to increase frequency into SCL, deploy the B767 on the LIM-MEX route, and possibly launch MEX-GIG? Regardless, LAN's older B763s
30 ghost77 : They would if they had the right management along with a good government giving certainty to all kind of investment, but here, just look at what happ
31 AF086 : Why not? Doesn't AM have a hub bank that flights to EZE/SCL/GRU depart/arrive from/at? If so there must be a great share of well timed connections. T
32 LipeGIG : G3 Believe me, there's room now for a 5x weekly MEX-GIG
33 LipeGIG : It was announced i believe 2 years ago but never become effective. I'm trying to understand what's missing.
34 SCL767 : No, besides LAN has already succeeded in establishing Mexico's dominant cargo carrier. MAS AIR–an affiliate of LAN CARGO, will continue to increase
35 LipeGIG : GIG grow from 140,000 int'l passengers a month in 2008 to.. probably 420,000 in January 2012. Rio is recovering space as destination, become a key oi
36 EddieDude : I think fare would be the answer. But we are steering off-topic. I think the smartest thing AM can do with respect to Brazil now that it will have it
37 SA7700 : This thread is about TAM applying for route authority between GRU-MEX. Please keep the focus of the thread and do not steer the thread in an off-topic
38 Post contains images AF086 : Agreed. Even if they decide to do it as a tag-on it will beat JJ's offer to GIG. But, from what I've been reading and hearing about AM they're too sl
39 LipeGIG : As i said before, AM could react to reduce the feed on JJ new service specially without an overnight schedule. Even daylight MEX-GIG , overnight GIG-
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