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Has Cargo Space Ever Been Used As Passenger Space?  
User currently offlineTriebwerk From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 126 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10781 times:

I would like to know if any airline in recent history (last 30 or 40 years, say) has used space in the cargo hull (under the regular passenger seating) as passenger space. My question doesn't concern airlines that mix passenger and cargo space within the passenger cabin; I'm talking about any airline that has used part of an aircraft's cargo hull for passenger use. (For example, putting seats in part of the cargo hull of a 747 and making it a triple-decker.) .

Obviously this would pose major challenges for the airline, such as pressurization, climate control and access to the cabin (not to mention lavoratories!). Still, seeing pictures of what look like very roomy cargo bays on large a/c has gotten me thinking. If no airline has done this, do you think it would be at all feasible?

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOB1783P From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10780 times:

Some PSA 1011s had a lower level lounge. They were acquired by LTU. The subject was covered here in 2003: L-1011 Lower Deck Lounge (by Skydrol Dec 1 2003 in Civil Aviation)


I've flown thousands of miles and I can tell you it's a lot safer than crossing the street!
User currently offlineaa61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10744 times:

Quoting Triebwerk (Thread starter):
If no airline has done this, do you think it would be at all feasible

I don't think it would be feasible. In some instances, cargo is the money maker on a commercial flight not the passenger load. I always think to myself (as a joke) the airlines will eventually stop flying passengers   Cargo pays better, boxes don't complain if there is a delay, don't complain about poor service etc.



Go big or go home
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 10658 times:

Does this count!


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User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31383 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 10588 times:
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McD floated the idea of the "MD-11 Panorama Deck" that would have had First Class seating in the forward cargo bay and the curved windows would have offered a panoramic view.

User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 10580 times:

here are some pictures of the L1011 lower lobe lounge

http://www.psa-history.org/hangar/l10.php?pic=170

-m

  


User currently offlinebtblue From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 10554 times:
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McDonnell Douglas considered it for the MD-11

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
McD floated the idea of the "MD-11 Panorama Deck" that would have had First Class seating in the forward cargo bay and the curved windows would have offered a panoramic view.

They did indeed... I remember that from when I was a kid reading Flight International... Would have been interesting to see it...

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1989/1989%20-%203008.html



146/2/3 737/2/3/4/5/7/8/9 A320 1/2/18/19/21 DC9/40/50 DC10/30 A300/6 A330/2/3 A340/3/6 A380 757/2/3 747/4 767/3/4 787 77
User currently offlineha763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3669 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 10494 times:
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LH's A340-600s uses part of the lower deck for the economy class lavs.


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User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 872 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10458 times:

Hmm...

Never knew about the PSA L1011s. Wow!
Maybe some VIP conversions have something similar?


User currently offlineTriebwerk From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10445 times:

Interesting responses! That's a classy stairway. And something tells me that putting cargo in the L1011's "lounge" instead of lounge seats was probably more profitable  

User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15828 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10401 times:

Quoting Triebwerk (Reply 9):
That's a classy stairway. And something tells me that putting cargo in the L1011's "lounge" instead of lounge seats was probably more profitable

Probably not for PSA who only flew within California. I doubt they would have had much cargo but the oil crisis put an end to their experiment very quickly anyway.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9727 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 10055 times:

Quoting aa61hvy (Reply 2):
boxes don't complain if there is a delay, don't complain about poor service etc.

the owners and the consignees of the boxes do complain when delays occur.

PSA and LTU are indeed one of the few . With PSA cargo did not play a significant role and at the time LTU flew the Tristars on short haul Mediterranean services passengers were more important as well. That has changed. Leisure Cargo fills bellies of charter flights that flew empty or just loaded with baggage some years ago.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineMWHCVT From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9938 times:

There are human passengers in the belly of planes every day of the week, they just don't have a pulse  


Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9727 posts, RR: 31
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9905 times:

right, a HUGO pays more than most of he pax sitting upstairs and does not require any catering.

.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlinetristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4064 posts, RR: 33
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9818 times:

Quoting Triebwerk (Reply 9):
And something tells me that putting cargo in the L1011's "lounge" instead of lounge seats was probably more profitable

Most Tristars were delivered with a downstairs galley. British Airways removed this galley on some of their long haul Tristars and moved it up into the cabin. This meant they had to take some seats out (and the lifts), but doubled the size of the forward cargo bay. The BA Tristars had the large fwd cargo door so could carry pallets.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7737 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9590 times:

Quoting aa61hvy (Reply 2):
Cargo pays better, boxes don't complain if there is a delay

Shipping cut roses to Europe and Japan is Kenya's largest source of foreign currency:

http://www.kenyarep-jp.com/business/industry/f_types_e.html

If the boxes of roses (or other flowers) are delayed in transit they may not complain but I guess that their buyer will be pretty sore if they turn up late and withered or dead. After all the airline cannot put them in a water to extend their life. And most passengers can survive a delay however long it might be.


User currently offlinetod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1729 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9400 times:

Quoting Triebwerk (Thread starter):
Obviously this would pose major challenges for the airline, such as pressurization, climate control and access to the cabin (not to mention lavoratories!).

Modern airlines have pressurized cargo compartments.
Climate control is usually a purchasable option from the OEM.
Lavs are not required to be considered airworthy.
Adding stairs to access the main cabin is not uncommon (working on an A330 program the requires that right now)
The show-stopper is emergency egress.

Quoting Triebwerk (Thread starter):
do you think it would be at all feasible?

Nope


User currently offlineaa61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9259 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
the owners and the consignees of the boxes do complain when delays occur.

That's true, but if it's with the airlines then there is little recourse (dealing with a forwarder).



Go big or go home
User currently offlineGizmoNC From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9210 times:

UPS was using 727's for cargo and then adding seats and flying passengers:

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/04/27/bu...-is-flying-a-new-package-deal.html


User currently offlineRogerThat From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9067 times:

Boeing's 377 Stratocruiser had a lower deck lounge during their brief lives with Pan American and American Export after WW-II.

Interesting discussion from 2008 re PSA's L-1011 outfitted with the lower deck lounge, including their life after PSA:

Worldways Canada L-1011 C-GIFE (by Lnglive1011yyz Feb 18 2008 in Civil Aviation)


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User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9727 posts, RR: 31
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8978 times:

Quoting GizmoNC (Reply 18):
UPS was using 727's for cargo and then adding seats and flying passengers:

That was a main deck conversion. The topic here is lower deck passenger transport, something the 727 would not be qualified for in first place.

The QC (quick change) ops dated back to the early 70s and Lufthansa was one of the pioneers, flying pax during the day and freight at night. They had a fleet of 727s and 737 QC



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlinedisplane From United States of America, joined May 2005, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8716 times:

UA DC-10 30s had a lower galley accessible by an elevator. A FA would work down there and there was a seat in case of turbulence. The only partition between the galley and cargo was a steel wall and some had a door.

User currently offlineCargoIT From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8590 times:

The A330-340 have optional lower deck lavs and crew rest areas.

[Edited 2011-07-08 13:16:41]

User currently offlineGingerSnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 898 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8413 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
The QC (quick change) ops dated back to the early 70s and Lufthansa was one of the pioneers, flying pax during the day and freight at night. They had a fleet of 727s and 737 QC

Out of interest to anyone that knows. But do LS still operate the 737QC?
I heard they were leaving the fleet soon.



Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9727 posts, RR: 31
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7752 times:

If you mean LH the answer is no. The last 737 QCs have left the Lufthansa fleet long time ago.


Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
25 antonovman : He means Channel Express, they bought those 737 QC A/C from Lufthansa They now trade as Jet2
26 Post contains images 474218 : I seriously doubt that it was a "steel wall".
27 airplanenut : My understanding is that Airbus offered to install synagogues in the forward cargo hold on A340s when courting El Al. That obviously never happened, b
28 Mortyman : Is it only Lufthansa who has this on their 340's ?
29 Triebwerk : But in the case of an emergency, couldn't they just go out the cargo door? I suppose the real danger would be a water landing, which would definitely
30 Post contains images PlymSpotter : There is downstairs crew seating on the Il-86, and I have it on good authority from a friend who has flown in Russia a lot since the mid 80s that some
31 B777LRF : There is a video somewhere of a 727-100 doing an evacuation flight from Viet Nam at the end of the war. Most heavy laden 727, passenger wise, it had a
32 DocLightning : Oh you BET cargo complains about delays. You know all those people who paid for their "Delivered by 10AM guaranteed" service? When their "Guaranteed-
33 Post contains links tharanga : I think that was discussed here. UAL Or Pan Am, Who Flew Last Flight Out Of Saigon? (by Bobcat Aug 7 2002 in Civil Aviation) it was a World Airways 7
34 Post contains images kgaiflyer : I understand the premise, but nevertheless, I'm reminded of the Illyushin 86 which had two full passenger decks -- rather than underfloor freight spac
35 BMI727 : I don't believe it was two full passenger decks. Rather it was rooms in the lower deck with lockers for carryon baggage similar to what PSA had. I do
36 Stitch : I want to say that I saw a cut-away physical model that showed seating on the lower forward hold area.
37 aa61hvy : Doc, you missed the boat on this one my friend. I was speaking of the actual boxes not the senders etc. PS: I know all about complaints on shipments
38 Post contains images PlymSpotter : There are a handful of seats in the galleys on the bottom deck, but most of the lower deck is for cargo and bags. However because a design feature of
39 c5load : Way back when, the C-5 Galaxy had a cargo compartment seat kit that could be used to accomodate up to 270 pax in the cargo box!
40 Post contains links and images kgaiflyer : Looks quite comfy. View Large View MediumPhoto © Tamas Martenyi
41 Post contains links btblue : Here we go: http://fromtheflightdeck.com/Reviews/727/World727/ http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=16983 Carried 360 passengers - quite something.[E
42 kgaiflyer : Utterly unbelievable !
43 Post contains links and images dlramp4life : looks like you could have a the converting cabin and cargo bay add on for 747 also http://airchive.com/html/memorabilia...-boeing-747-technical-summar
44 aa61hvy : That's an interesting photo. I know Airways magazine had an article on it maybe 10 years ago or so. If I recall, the conversion process was only 3-4
45 Viscount724 : Not correct. At some airports, ALL passengers boarded using the airstairs and walked up the stairways inside the aircraft to the passenger deck. Ther
46 Viscount724 : It was my understanding that only UA's DC-10-10s had lower deck galleys, or am I wrong? The only DC-10-30s they operated were acquired from other car
47 kgaiflyer : Well, we have differences of opinion, don't we? Anyone from Aeroflot on the list?
48 Post contains images ZANL188 : and Presidents have traveled on the cargo deck... or at least deplaned that way Sometimes, if you're last in line, you just gotta pull up a cargo flo
49 PanHAM : @ ZANL188 OK, what is your statement? The famous World 727 flight was an emergency evacuation where the filled as many people into a 727, which has be
50 jwenting : not so sure about that one, or rather the certification to carry passengers. A certain number of lavs per 100 passengers is afaik part of the require
51 BMI727 : I thought that was due to exit restrictions. I've never heard of a lav requirement, though civility would dictate that decent sized planes used on lo
52 PanHAM : Everyting that is installed on an aircraft has to be airworthy. It has to undergo material testing, for instant withstanding fire for a certain perio
53 474218 : The 12K toilet set was more than a seat. It was entire fiberglass shroud that encases the toilet on a P-3, with the hinged seat (and lid) attached. T
54 PanHAM : Never trust the media - i am sure that the story was spread like I said. Thanks anyhow.
55 Post contains links bmacleod : I think AC once toyed with the idea in mid 80s on their 747-200s.... NWT Air reportedly had pax space tranformed into cargo space on its 737s 15 years
56 474218 : I'm sorry the only cargo door I could see was the on the right side, was the lower (standard) door?
57 spacecadet : I see one on the left, not the right...
58 bmacleod : OK thanks for the correction.....
59 maxpower1954 : The 10 new-build DC-10-30s delivered to World Airways from 1978-1980 had lower deck galleys. In a tragic accident, one of our flight attendants was k
60 tod : What I meant was that the airplane does not need to have lavs to be airworthy. Of course, just the the rest of the plane, the lavs must comply with 1
61 tod : Correct
62 ZANL188 : Well ok since you ask. The World 727 did have folks in the hold... Thought I had a pix of the legs hanging out of the rear hold but found the grenade
63 Triebwerk : Thanks for the very interesting responses. I don't think there is a better place to ask a question like this than Airliners.net. I certainly learned a
64 kgaiflyer : Amen to that !
65 Post contains links and images fanofjets : Boeing proposed a lounge in the cargo hold of its 747, much like those PSA/LTU L-1011s. To the best of my knowledge, there were no takers. http://www.
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