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New LH Lohaul Dest Ex FRA With Open. Of New Rway?  
User currently onlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5201 times:

FRA will soon have one new runway, which will allow LH to expand ex FRA. In addition the new 748s and a couple of 333s + 380s will be added over the next 18 months or so. Some older 744 may leave, but as far as I know that is not decided yet, they may even be changed to a more eco heavy config.
So what do you think may be added?

Here a shortlist of my thoughts:

LIM
PTY or SJO
HAV (with a more eco heavy config)
SCL

PHX

PNH via BKK
CGK Non Stop 3-4 weekly
KUL Non Stop 3-4 weekly
SGN Non Stop 3-4 weekly
DPS

China???
Africa??


NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineyvphx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4860 times:

I would so love a PHX destination, but unfortunately I don't think thats a reality, especially in the summer with 112 degree temps.

User currently offlineairevents From Germany, joined Jan 2002, 890 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4433 times:

There were heavy rumours around a new flight to Lima and apparently even a statement from the Peruvian minister of transportation or similar confirming this, however nothing new as of now. I could imagine a route to either TACA´s or Copa´s Central American hubs. Don´t know if an A340-600 could do SCL without restrictions?


www.airevents.com
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13446 posts, RR: 100
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4312 times:
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Quoting yvphx (Reply 1):
I would so love a PHX destination, but unfortunately I don't think thats a reality, especially in the summer with 112 degree temps.

More as the PHX economy needs to recover a bit more. An A346 will have zero issues going PHX-FRA. LH has enough variety in their metal.

In some ways the expansion depends on the *A 'tension' with AI. Note: Just a limit on FRA expansion, details on that topic belong in another thread IMHO.

When is the new FRA terminal scheduled to be complete?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4287 times:

As mentioned, some South American routes were in heavy rumouring, but so far not a lot has happened. I guess it too depends on what LATAM is going to do alliance-wise and under what circumstances the cooperation between LH and TACA will deepen. Last thing I heard about the SoAm LH network was a press release about regular services to Bogota (or so I believe)

That being said, the new runway is not something that LH built, but something that Fraport put in place. I guess what we'll see in the not-too-distant future is LH saving up runway slots to smaller european destinations which - if they do - cannot lose a lot of money. First things first.
The runway will open by the end of summer, the 748i you are talking about will take a couple of years to get delivered, and primarily so to replace ageing 744s.

I'm not doubting they are going to open up new routes in the long-term, but I also don't think they were waiting for the new runway to open, because after all FRA isn't LHR and you can always squeeze a couple of flights in if you were to instate some. The new runway is for future expansion plans (think about T3), not because FRA is already now at its very limits.

With time LH is going to open up a lot of your described destinations, mainly because we know that SoAm and SE Asia are future markets. What I am curious about is this flight you mentioned to HAV. I know DE is flying there (daily?), I just don't know how far the old contracts between DE and LH still go. Is there a codeshare on the route?



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlinebavair From Germany, joined Jul 2011, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3913 times:

Quoting LH506 (Thread starter):
CGK Non Stop 3-4 weekly

I very much doubt that this would happen as CGK just got downgreaded from a B744 to an A343. The demand just doesn´t seem to be large enough here.

Quoting LH506 (Thread starter):
China???

We will probably be seeing new Chinese destinations, yes. Roumor has 2 coming for MUC, but I would think that further destinations will also be added from FRA in the near future.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3829 times:

Quoting airevents (Reply 2):
There were heavy rumours around a new flight to Lima and apparently even a statement from the Peruvian minister of transportation or similar confirming this, however nothing new as of now. I could imagine a route to either TACA´s or Copa´s Central American hubs. Don´t know if an A340-600 could do SCL without restrictions?

well I would love to welcome LH in Lim and also to see them flying to Pty, but I think it would be maybe too much to get both flights same time, hence I think we will see first Lim and maybe in 1.5 to 2 years Pty could be very much possible.

well even the Peruvian minister anounced that already some month ago, I dont give too much on it, as he also anounced flights with TK, KE and even Transaero... so lets see and hope.

In case of SCL I think they will connect it well via TACA / Lima



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3777 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 4):
What I am curious about is this flight you mentioned to HAV. I know DE is flying there (daily?), I just don't know how far the old contracts between DE and LH still go. Is there a codeshare on the route?

DE operates into HAV twice weekly. DE operates FRA-REC weekly and FRA-SSA twice weekly and has an interline agreement with GOL. DE also operates a weekly service between FRA and PTY and has an interline agreement with CM:
http://www.condor.com/us/fileadmin/d...mpany/02_Press/2010-10-18_Copa.pdf

Quoting Avianca (Reply 6):
well even the Peruvian minister anounced that already some month ago, I dont give too much on it, as he also anounced flights with TK, KE and even Transaero... so lets see and hope.

TK is interested in operating into LIM via BCN; BCN is a growing Star hub.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3773 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 7):
TK is interested in operating into LIM via BCN; BCN is a growing Star hub.

I know that they are interested, but that does not mean that it is confirmed as said by (not only for this route) by the transportation minister.

Would be great to have them here, without a doubt I would use them on one of my next europe trips.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3756 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 8):
I know that they are interested, but that does not mean that it is confirmed as said by (not only for this route) by the transportation minister.

Many airlines are interested in operating into LIM, i.e. KE ICN-JFK-LIM, TK IST-BCN-LIM, LH FRA-LIM, AB DUS/BER/MUC-LIM etc. Interesting developments ahead for LIM.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4514 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3712 times:

Quoting bavair (Reply 5):
I very much doubt that this would happen as CGK just got downgreaded from a B744 to an A343. The demand just doesn´t seem to be large enough here.

The reason for the downgauge to CGK is the deployment of the A388 on the FRA SIN route, which currently extends to CGK. CGK is not A388 ready, so LH opted to instead extend the A343 from MUC SIN to CGK.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
AB DUS/BER/MUC-LIM etc. Interesting developments ahead for LIM.

any more news on that one? hear for the first time that one... also Transaero is intersting for a weekly 777 run between Moscu and Lima



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3678 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 11):
any more news on that one? hear for the first time that one...

AB would like to expand further into Latin America in-cooperation with LAN:

Quote:
airberlin currently operates its own flights to Cancun and several destinations in the Caribbean, including Puerto Plata and Punta Cana in the Dominican Republic, Varadero in Cuba and Montego Bay in Jamaica. But it currently does not operate to any destinations in Central or South America. A tie-up with LAN would make such flights more appealing. airberlin’s long-haul hubs are Berlin and Dusseldorf so there would be no overlap with LAN’s gateway in Frankfurt.
airberlin aims to partner with LAN to improve Germany-LATAM connections


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3641 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 12):
AB would like to expand further into Latin America in-cooperation with LAN:

yes, but as per the link they are looking more to link SouthAmerica via LAN's FRA flight, not going by their own to citys like Lima.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 13):
yes, but as per the link they are looking more to link SouthAmerica via LAN's FRA flight

Yes, AB would like to support LA's operations into FRA by adding certain flights at FRA.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 13):
not going by their own to citys like Lima.

The article also mentions, "But it currently does not operate to any destinations in Central or South America. A tie-up with LAN would make such flights more appealing. airberlin’s long-haul hubs are Berlin and Dusseldorf so there would be no overlap with LAN’s gateway in Frankfurt." Thus, AB would like to operate its own services into South America that would not overlap with LA's services at FRA. Where are LA's primary hubs, LIM and SCL, (and soon BOG). Thus, if AB were to operate into any of LA's hubs, LA would code-share with AB.


User currently onlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3406 times:

Quoting bavair (Reply 5):
Quoting LH506 (Thread starter):
CGK Non Stop 3-4 weekly


I very much doubt that this would happen as CGK just got downgreaded from a B744 to an A343. The demand just doesn´t seem to be large enough here.



In the past LH flew FRA-SIN-CGK 744 and MUC-SIN 343. Now it will be FRA-SIN 388 and MUC-SIN-CGK 343. The deployment of the 388 is the reason for the change of the tag. Is CGK even ready for a 388?


Also rumoured in other threads

MUC-SHE-TAO BMW has a plant in SHE
MUC-MEX, which has been also mentioned by LH staff a couple of months ago



NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
User currently offlineCX288 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

In the past LH flew FRA-SIN-CGK 744 and MUC-SIN 343. Now it will be FRA-SIN 388 and MUC-SIN-CGK 343. The deployment of the 388 is the reason for the change of the tag. Is CGK even ready for a 388?

A few years ago there also was the rumour of LH starting FRA-KUL-CGK mit A-343. This would have provided KL with a more competitive non-stop product, plus a one-stop offering to many European destinations, while at the same time offering more seats into Singapore. The latter, however, has in the meantime received a second flight from Munich plus A-380 operations from Frankfurt.


User currently offlinebavair From Germany, joined Jul 2011, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3211 times:

Quoting CX288 (Reply 16):
In the past LH flew FRA-SIN-CGK 744 and MUC-SIN 343. Now it will be FRA-SIN 388 and MUC-SIN-CGK 343. The deployment of the 388 is the reason for the change of the tag. Is CGK even ready for a 388?

Yes, however seeing this it also indicates that the demand isn´t there if the smaller equipment is sufficient (while the MUC route could have been upgraded to A346 if more was needed). Does anyone have the loadfactors for SIN-CGK?


User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2846 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 4):
The new runway is for future expansion plans (think about T3), not because FRA is already now at its very limits.

Wrong!!!
At peak times FRA has been at its very limits for years now. LH started to talk about the need for the new runway in the late 90s. FRA could have needed it for many years now. Only the GTF took some pressure away, but that was only for a short time.

As for new possible routes the limiting factor no 1 will be LH's fleet. At this time their long haul fleet is pretty streched.

Quoting LH506 (Thread starter):


LIM
PTY or SJO
HAV (with a more eco heavy config)
SCL

PHX

PNH via BKK
CGK Non Stop 3-4 weekly
KUL Non Stop 3-4 weekly
SGN Non Stop 3-4 weekly
DPS

China???
Africa??

HAV - never
PTY or SJO - as well no
SCL - possible (but Christoph Franz stated that Bogota is already a long flight and LH doesn't have plans to go beyond. That was 2 months ago I think)

CKG/KUL/SGN - hard to say but I doubt they will go nonstop in the near future

China - is a nobrainer
Africa - hard to say


User currently onlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2764 times:

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 18):
As for new possible routes the limiting factor no 1 will be LH's fleet. At this time their long haul fleet is pretty streched.


They will receive 20 748Is starting from next year on. These seem to replace only 10 744 at most (the other 20 will get some interior update and fly for a while). In addition as mentioned there are some rumours that some of the 10 oldest 744s will receive a eco heavy config and continue to fly . Plus 3 additional 333s in 2012 and the remaining 8 380s. That leaves some room for expansion.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 18):
PTY or SJO - as well no

LIM first and in 2 years after BOG and LIM are consolidated LH will fly to either CMs hub in PTY or TAs hub in SJO, putting pressure on KL and IB. Just my guess.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 18):
SCL - possible (but Christoph Franz stated that Bogota is already a long flight and LH doesn't have plans to go beyond. That was 2 months ago I think)


I agree SCL is the least likely, maybe as tag to the LIM flight.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 18):
HAV - never


Was mentioned in German forums. IB, KL and AF all fly there. A good route for an eco heavy completly depreciated 744...
 



NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9676 posts, RR: 31
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2638 times:

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 18):
At peak times FRA has been at its very limits for years now. LH started to talk about the need for the new runway in the late 90s. FRA

Former CEO and now chairman Juergen Weber, to be exact in 1995, demanded the fourth runway. 16 years from first request by the main tenant at FRA to realisation ism by German standards, not too bad. Now, if they get the required and necessary night operations as well (quote Juergen Weber again: As many nas needed, as few as possible) we all can be happy here in the region.

For starters, the new runway will yield 6 additional ops per hour. That will be gradually increased until the max is reached.

Not too much room for long dustance, but for additional European routes. Lufthansa has the great advantage that, due to the foresight of Franz Joseph Strauss, the politician and former MP of Bavaria, the new Munich airport exists which will allows LH to operate at 2 German hubs, not only with about equal capacity but also equal catchment area as well and in the heart of Europe.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2476 times:

Quoting LH506 (Reply 19):
A good route for an eco heavy completly depreciated 744...

As you mention it is an eco heavy route. But as we all know LH is looking for premium traffic. They make their money in the front of the cabin which is why I wouldn't bet my money on it.

Quoting LH506 (Reply 19):
They will receive 20 748Is starting from next year on. These seem to replace only 10 744 at most

Yes, but they won't recieve them all in a short time. So untill all the 20 748is are in the fleet and the older 744s are gone it will take some time and that process will slow down organic growth.

Quoting LH506 (Reply 19):
LIM first and in 2 years after BOG and LIM are consolidated LH will fly to either CMs hub in PTY or TAs hub in SJO, putting pressure on KL and IB.

Two years after LIM will be consolidated is a very long shot, considering that LH hasn't even officially stated they will go to LIM.
I wish as well that LH comes back to South America. UIO is on my list for example, but I will stay realistic in that matter, because I know LH doesn't open dozens of new stations just for the matter of growth or to put only pressure on other carriers.


Just my own opinion and I stand corrected if I´m proven to be wrong.


User currently offlineaf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2707 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Still hoping LH will come to MSP.    Though I'm sure DL would respond.


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently onlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

MUC-SHE-TAO BMW has a plant in SHE

Seems to be confirmed for S12 but ex FRA.



NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1936 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 12):
airberlin currently operates its own flights to Cancun and several destinations in the Caribbean, including Puerto Plata and Punta Cana in the Dominican Republic, Varadero in Cuba and Montego Bay in Jamaica.

Big DE competition markets. Wonder if AB makes money on those routes.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 21):
As you mention it is an eco heavy route. But as we all know LH is looking for premium traffic. They make their money in the front of the cabin which is why I wouldn't bet my money on it.

Again, try fighting DE from FRA in a tourist-class configuration. DE has the backupf of a whole travel empire behind them.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 18):

Wrong!!!
At peak times FRA has been at its very limits for years now. LH started to talk about the need for the new runway in the late 90s. FRA could have needed it for many years now. Only the GTF took some pressure away, but that was only for a short time.

Then the situation as it is will not change or become worse with the new T3 ~2017. The new runway adds a lot of capacity, but keep in mind it is weight-restricted and for landings only. The outlook as it is: Build yet another runway around 2020.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 18):

China - is a nobrainer
Africa - hard to say

I disagree. China is THE future market, not only for LH. There are tens of cities in China with a population of millions. Not going deeper is a little death sentence, especially for LH who are a long-haul powerhouse that keeps losing money on European and domestic routes year after year.
Africa is really hard to say though, but I hope the daily JNB A380 has set a sign for a solid foundation for growth.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
Not too much room for long dustance, but for additional European routes. Lufthansa has the great advantage that, due to the foresight of Franz Joseph Strauss, the politician and former MP of Bavaria, the new Munich airport exists which will allows LH to operate at 2 German hubs, not only with about equal capacity but also equal catchment area as well and in the heart of Europe.

Too unfortunate he never saw his legacy come reality. A man with visions, a really polarising character.



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
25 PanHAM : The restriction on single ailse aircraft is voluntary. There are ample slots for the heavies on the other runways, no need for operations on the new
26 SCL767 : DE operates into those destinations from FRA. AB operates into CUN, POP and PUJ from DUS, MUC and TXL. AB operates DUS-MBJ weekly and will launch DUS
27 mogandoCI : a simple strategy is to mimic AF/KL group's destination list while retaining LH's brand image. another is to order 787-8 from Boeing and test secondar
28 Semaex : Order 787 to test markets? You cannot be serious about this. I do not know how airlines "test" markets, but I think any serious airline wouldn't be s
29 Post contains images Qazar : Note that LH holds a 5% stake in Fraport... although not enough to dictate what Fraport does or does not, but enough to nudge it in the right directi
30 Post contains links and images Semaex : LH has China written all over it in the future. Well actually, today already... View Large View MediumPhoto © Martin Hartmann
31 Post contains images wilco737 : LH wants to fly to many destinations in China with 380, but Chinese government won't let them. LH Wanted to fly 380s to PVG - nope. LH wanted to fly
32 Semaex : As long as the A380 is in the no-go zone with these governments, the B748i will work out nicely. Smart move LH, now just hoping Boeing delivers on ti
33 Post contains images wilco737 : I doubt that it is unlimited and every new flight or route as to be approved. And now Shenzhen Airlines has joined the star alliance, so less need fo
34 Post contains images LH506 : Maybe you could fly FRA-CGK-DPS. Fill up th front cabin to CGK and the back to DPS. Isn't MNL in the same league as DPS?? Lots of low yielding traffi
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