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Pacific Wings Does It Again...  
User currently offlineUSXguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1017 posts, RR: 5
Posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7735 times:

Pacific Wings is once again trying to drop another community, and I bet it will only come back and resubmit a bid after taking them OFF EAS. The communities start complaining that the service to Nashville is *not* sterile, despite guarantees by Mr. Khalstorf during the EAS bid process he would operate sterile.... so to "punish" the markets he decided to go subsidy free (he did this in Hawai'i to prevent Mokulele from bidding on Hana, Kamuela, and Kalapapa; and also took Macon, Georgia subsidy after they also complained about the air service).

I think the DOT should really start to get some balls and enforcing the bids & penalizing airlines for not following thru, nor should they permit carries to continually drop EAS, then ask for subsidies, drop subsidies, and ask for them again.




Essential Air Service at Owensboro, Kentucky and Jackson, Tennessee

OST-2000-7857 - Jackson
OST-2000-7855 - Owensboro

June 30, 2011

Notice of Pacific Wings to Terminate Service

As you know, Pacific Wings has been attempting to gain access to airline terminal facilities at Nashville International Airport, necessary to support Essential Air Service, for more than two years without success.

We have repeatedly requested assistance from the FAA Airports District Office and USDOT Office of the Secretary; however, we have been unable to procure .counter or gate space at BNA on reasonable terms.

Despite apparent non-compliance by the airport sponsor with federal Airport Grant Assurance 39, barriers to access continue to impede and frustrate our service delivery efforts. Therefore, we are providing you with this 90-day notice of our intent to terminate service to Jackson, Tennessee and Owensboro, Kentucky from Nashville, effective September 30, 2011.

By: Pacific Wings, Greg Kahlstorf

http://www.owb.net/ - Owensboro-Daviess County Regional Airport
http://www.mklairport.com - McKellar-Sipes Regional Airport


xx
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7494 times:

Sounds like the same stuff they were going through early on with their Georgia Skies operation. They moaned and complained about having trouble gaining access to the terminal facilities (Meanwhile during some of this time, Wings Air, who briefly competed against Georgia Skies on the MCN-ATL and AHN-ATL route [without having the EAS subsidy like Georgia Skies], had managed to get access by contracting their ground handling to AA thereby gaining access to T-10.). They do operate out of the remote parking on E these days, but the BNA service into ATL operates out of Atlantic Aviation and anyone connecting onto service to AHN or MCN has to be bused to the terminal and undergo screening.

User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7404 times:

Glad I tried it out when I did. Utter waste of money and very poor service however.

All EAS does is attract these bottom-feeder operations looking to make a quick buck, and reduces the chances of a legit airline ever returning to these towns from slim to none.


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1307 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7329 times:

Perhaps OO would offer to do ORD-OWB

User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7275 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 3):
Perhaps OO would offer to do ORD-OWB

Eagle already operates EVV-ORD 5 times a day.

But if timed right with frequencies competitive to Eagle, OO/United Express OWB-ORD could work. And more importantly, it would give the tri-state area a much-needed Star Alliance connection (it's been Star-less since US left EVV in 2005).



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7058 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 4):
But if timed right with frequencies competitive to Eagle, OO/United Express OWB-ORD could work.

See that's what I'm talking about. OO would be REAL service, not this LW crap where you have to buy two tickets, one to BNA and then another to wherever you're going. Then when you get to BNA you're not even in the sterile area, or even at the terminal...and with LW reliability (or lack thereof) you might as well have driven. Only takes 2 hours to BNA or SDF.

This "essential" air service is hurting the community IMHO.


User currently offlineeclipseflight7 From Somalia, joined Apr 2004, 518 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6996 times:

Why is the taxpayer subsidizing this? The residents of Owensboro, KY and Jackson, TN have opted to live in a remote region of their state. They can happily move to Nashville, Louisville, or Memphis if they found themselves inclined to partake in air travel without a lengthy drive to the airport.

DOT should have dropped EAS in the main 48 a long time ago. It allows airlines to enter artificial markets with no protracted benefits to the people that pay for it. It's Kentucky, not Namibia.



Holy sh*ts and burritos.
User currently offlinecsturdiv From Australia, joined Aug 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6901 times:

Quoting eclipseflight7 (Reply 6):
The residents of Owensboro, KY and Jackson, TN have opted to live in a remote region of their state.

Really? Did you just type this? I am from EVV, which is about 40 miles or so depending on the route you take, from EVV. OWB, while it is a small town, is not some boonie backwoods town you make it out to be. Opted to live in remote regions? Wow! There are boonie backwoods parts of Kentucky, but this is not one of those. I have been to boonie backwoods areas of Kentucky. I opted to move to the Chicago area because I wanted to, I always wanted to live in Chicago. Many people, including my family, enjoy living there, they didn't "opt" to live in the tri-state area.



An American expat living and working in Australia
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6816 times:

Quoting csturdiv (Reply 7):
Really? Did you just type this? I am from EVV, which is about 40 miles or so depending on the route you take, from EVV. OWB, while it is a small town, is not some boonie backwoods town you make it out to be. Opted to live in remote regions? Wow! There are boonie backwoods parts of Kentucky, but this is not one of those. I have been to boonie backwoods areas of Kentucky. I opted to move to the Chicago area because I wanted to, I always wanted to live in Chicago. Many people, including my family, enjoy living there, they didn't "opt" to live in the tri-state area.

If it is only 40 miles to EVV why can't the residents of OWB just drive there? EVV would probably have more service and more competitive prices that way. EAS (in most cases) is a colossal waste of money!


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6774 times:

Quoting eclipseflight7 (Reply 6):
Why is the taxpayer subsidizing this? The residents of Owensboro, KY and Jackson, TN have opted to live in a remote region of their state. They can happily move to Nashville, Louisville, or Memphis if they found themselves inclined to partake in air travel without a lengthy drive to the airport.

   If you need air service that badly, then you can subsidize it yourself, or at least pay fares that will support it. Otherwise, do without.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 8):
If it is only 40 miles to EVV why can't the residents of OWB just drive there?

That's probably exactly what happens.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineeclipseflight7 From Somalia, joined Apr 2004, 518 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3020 times:

Quoting csturdiv (Reply 7):
Really? Did you just type this? I am from EVV, which is about 40 miles or so depending on the route you take, from EVV. OWB, while it is a small town, is not some boonie backwoods town you make it out to be. Opted to live in remote regions? Wow! There are boonie backwoods parts of Kentucky, but this is not one of those. I have been to boonie backwoods areas of Kentucky. I opted to move to the Chicago area because I wanted to, I always wanted to live in Chicago. Many people, including my family, enjoy living there, they didn't "opt" to live in the tri-state area.

I'm not saying it's the boonies, I'm saying that it doesn't have a large enough population to support financially viable commercial aviation, and as such its residents should be prepared to travel if they want to get to an airport. My money, as a taxpayer, should not be used to create a market that does not exist. Owensboro doesn't have an indoor ski slope like they do in Dubai, and it's every American's god-given right to ski down an indoor mountain, so should the taxpayer finance the construction of it so the residents of rural Kentucky can live like the Emiratis?

[Edited 2011-07-09 16:19:32 by srbmod]


Holy sh*ts and burritos.
User currently offlineB737900 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2634 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
If you need air service that badly, then you can subsidize it yourself, or at least pay fares that will support it. Otherwise, do without.

The former (and late) Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska played a big part in establishing the Essential Air Service. Believe me when I tell you that it is essential in Alaska. Air service being the only way to get between bush communities or to Anchorage and Fairbanks. Except in winter when dog sleds and snow machines can go the distance. Having said that, what is good for Alaska may not be good (or appropriate) for another part of the country. And yes, we as taxpayers subsidise a lot of programs that don't benefit all of us all of the time.



Sounds like a Beaver on floats..........we're saved!!
User currently offlineeclipseflight7 From Somalia, joined Apr 2004, 518 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2613 times:

Quoting B737900 (Reply 13):
The former (and late) Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska played a big part in establishing the Essential Air Service. Believe me when I tell you that it is essential in Alaska. Air service being the only way to get between bush communities or to Anchorage and Fairbanks. Except in winter when dog sleds and snow machines can go the distance. Having said that, what is good for Alaska may not be good (or appropriate) for another part of the country. And yes, we as taxpayers subsidise a lot of programs that don't benefit all of us all of the time.

I have less consternation in places where air travel becomes a clear and sometimes necessary benefit. However, the continental 48 are connected with arguably what is the best infrastructure in the world. EAS in the context of this thread competes with an hour or two of driving, also known as an inconvenience.



Holy sh*ts and burritos.
User currently offlineABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 851 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2491 times:

Quoting eclipseflight7 (Reply 14):
I have less consternation in places where air travel becomes a clear and sometimes necessary benefit. However, the continental 48 are connected with arguably what is the best infrastructure in the world. EAS in the context of this thread competes with an hour or two of driving, also known as an inconvenience.

Some locations in the western lower 48 can use the EAS and do. Take eastern Montana for instance. Would you want to drive 2 to 4 hrs or more from eastern Montana to BIL or MOT just to catch another 2hr flight to a hub then onward? I would much rather catch a flight from OLF MLS or SDY than face a long tortuous drive to a far away city only to face more long travel time.
So yes, I agree that EAS is a waste of money when there is a regional airport within 60 miles of your town. Once it gets into the hundreds of miles of driving just to get to an airport with regular service, I think there is a compromise.
JD CRPXE



A line is evidence that other people exist.
User currently offlineLordMontenegro From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2402 times:

Quoting eclipseflight7 (Reply 14):
I have less consternation in places where air travel becomes a clear and sometimes necessary benefit. However, the continental 48 are connected with arguably what is the best infrastructure in the world. EAS in the context of this thread competes with an hour or two of driving, also known as an inconvenience.

Best infrastructure in the world, huh? You've clearly never been on a road serviced by PennDOT .

As far as EAS goes, I think it needs to be re-examined and overhauled. I fully believe there are some areas that would really need it (for example, western states like Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, and of course Alaska) but I can see the argument about airports that aren't far from other airports that already have commercial service. I don't know exactly which constitutes an airport needing EAS (haven't done the research), but I wonder if t might be possible for voters to decide whether they want to fund something like that at their local airport? And how does that work, is it only the people in the town whose taxes go for it, or does it extend out further than that? Of course, people without children also are forced to pay school taxes, so I can see that argument as well. This is a bit too complicated for me to come up with a simple answer...

Of course, I'm also spoiled because ELM, ITH, BGM, IPT, UNV, and AVP are all well within my reach and I don't mind driving, and SYR, ROC, MDT, and ALB aren't far out of the question either if I want mainline service... so EAS doesn't really affect me much, despite living in a township with less than 2000 people...

/rant

[Edited 2011-07-09 09:58:44]

User currently offlineeclipseflight7 From Somalia, joined Apr 2004, 518 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2257 times:

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 15):
Would you want to drive 2 to 4 hrs or more from eastern Montana to BIL or MOT just to catch another 2hr flight to a hub then onward?

If I chose to live in those areas, then I would accept it. They can move to Billings if they want to have the convenience of connections to major airports. Why am I responsible for someone choosing to live in the middle of nowhere? If they want the air service so badly, then they can pay for it themselves, but not me.



Holy sh*ts and burritos.
User currently offlineB737900 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2032 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Essential Air service is essential for moving more than just people. EAS plays a role in the delivery of the all important mail to bush communities. When I lived in bush Alaska we would call in a large order of groceries, outboard engine parts, liquor (if the village was "wet"), etc.,etc. Even a medium town like Sitka, AK has a daily Evergreen B727 flying in the mail. Boy, try eliminating that service and the politicians would hear the shouts all the way to Washington.


Sounds like a Beaver on floats..........we're saved!!
User currently offlineUSXguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1017 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1925 times:

btw, the EAS program cost over $170 million last year, and only $12 million of that was spent on the entire state of Alaska.


xx
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3139 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Quoting eclipseflight7 (Reply 17):
Why am I responsible for someone choosing to live in the middle of nowhere? If they want the air service so badly, then they can pay for it themselves, but not me.

Why am I reponsible for paying for your interstate highway projects? Did ABQ get any FAA money recently? (Do you only fly to airports with private air traffic control, BTW?) Do you use a GPS? Look at a weather forecast? Go to public school? Take a hike in a national forest? No? Fine, you are an island. If you do any of the above, my taxpayer dollars are helping you out. Yours help me. Sort of how a big, connected, mobile country does business. If any of that does bother you, that island existence might be your cup of tea. But, you choose to live with where you live, and we help you out, even if you aren't in the middle of nowhere! You ought not have a problem with your share.

I looked up some tax benefit by state. It would appear that the low density states like Montana, Wyoming, Alaska, and New Hampshire, receive the least in federal tax benefits. The most urban states (i.e. those not in the "boonies") get a higher benefit. http://visualecon.wpengine.netdna-cd...wp-content/uploads/2010/02/tax.jpg I can begrudge some stimulation of air service if needed in sparsely populated areas. It's only fair.


-Rampart

[Edited 2011-07-09 12:25:42]

[Edited 2011-07-09 12:42:26]

[Edited 2011-07-09 12:46:36]

User currently offlineLordMontenegro From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1808 times:

I just realized, rereading through, that I forgot the original point of the thread. Sorry about that! Here's an (uneducated) proper response...

Quoting USXguy (Thread starter):
The communities start complaining that the service to Nashville is *not* sterile, despite guarantees by Mr. Khalstorf during the EAS bid process he would operate sterile

How is that even legal for him to do? If you promise to offer one a sterile service and then refuse to operate a sterile flight, regardless of reason, isn't that fraud of some sort? Do the DOT, the airports, or the passengers have any course of action to rectify that? That's kind of a sleazy.

Quoting USXguy (Thread starter):
nor should they permit carries to continually drop EAS, then ask for subsidies, drop subsidies, and ask for them again

Absolutely. I think that if an airline promises one kind of service and then doesn't come through, then has the audacity to ask for subsidies again at a later time, they should be barred from doing so. That's inexcusable; whether you agree with EAS or not, taking advantage of the system like that is a disgusting thing to do, and if airlines keep doing that then I think it would jeopardize the whole program and communities that need it might be the ones who lose out in the end.


User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1773 times:

Quoting B737900 (Reply 13):
The former (and late) Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska played a big part in establishing the Essential Air Service. Believe me when I tell you that it is essential in Alaska.

EAS in Alaska is nothing like EAS elsewhere in the country. You're talking towns with no road connections, and it is way cheaper to keep subsidizing air travel until hell freezes than it would be to build highways to those places. It costs about $12.5 million a year in Alaska, and $170 million for the rest of the country. The 12 million, IMO, is well-spent...the 170 million, not so much.


Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 15):
Some locations in the western lower 48 can use the EAS and do.

Good point. Out West, and possibly in places like northern Michigan, if a SMALL subsidy keeps air service viable, then I'll go along with it. OWB and MKL are both an hour from other airports, and in both cases ticket revenue has been covering less than 25% of LW's costs. Out of MKL the subsidy-per-per flight was almost $700...on a plane with 9 seats, and the last time I flew it, my fare was $40.

[Edited 2011-07-09 16:20:31 by srbmod]

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