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United Fully Merged, Do They Have The Right Mix?  
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2984 posts, RR: 13
Posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7181 times:
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By this time next year or so the new UNITED AIRLINES will have a large fleet of international aircraft. All the aircraft that were once the original United will have 3 classes on their 747's, 777's, 767's and naturally the fleet and route planners will know how many birds are 3 class. They will equally know how many 2 class 777's, 767's and 757's they will have. Given we know that certain routes must have 3 classes to compete and some where 2 classes are just fine, I find it hard to believe they will magically have the perfect amount of 3 class and 2 class just by what were CO ac and UA ac. So, hypothetically...will they have to go back to the shop and change some widebodies from 2 to 3 class ac or have too many 3 class and convert them to 2 class? If so, will they have ordered and mothballed extra F suites? Do they plan to keep their future 787's and A350's open to be make some 3 or 2 to have the right mix?

But for starters do they believe they have the right mix once the 2 fleets are done?

One last question, have they ever announced which interior look they will go for so ALL United ac look the same inside, international or domestic?


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20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4326 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6843 times:
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Since I tend to visit Bath-upon-Avon a lot, it's nice to know I can fly a two-class 757 into Bristol (and drive east) or take a three-class widebody into Heathrow (and drive west).

It's nice having the choice.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6762 times:

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
do they believe they have the right mix

They have DEN in the mix (the airport everyone wants to hub at) and all of their aircraft can easily get in and out of there.

So yes, they will have the right mix once fully merged.......   


User currently offlineIPFreely From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6674 times:

They will have more than enough 2-class and 3-class airplanes. The real question is how many airplanes get parked in the desert over the next year or two.

User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1888 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 6588 times:
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I'm sorry to say CO announced the cancellation of their service to Bristol (BRS). They still serve BHX, MAN, LHR and two Scotland airports if you don't mind a bit of a drive  

User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2984 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6039 times:
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Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 4):

Too bad. Not that I ever flew that route or ever thought I would, but one thing I really loved (or love) about the merger were the "boutique" routes or routes to smaller destinations is that on the new UA I could fly to HK in F or Glasgow in C on a 757 nonstop. I hope the new UA keeps many of these smaller destinations that were just too small for UA.

But if they can't fill a 757 to The Shetland Islands (joke) I guess they won't.

I did one fly CO from EWR to Lisbon, and it was a wonderful flight except for the old CO "chairs" they had in BF. How they were able to pass their old seats off as "sleeper seats" is beyond me?



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlinestaralliance85 From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5446 times:

I would imagine on their 777, 767-300 and 400 and the 747 that they would have a four class configuration (f,c,p economy and economy). . On the 787, 767-200 and the 757 it makes sense to keep a Businessfirst, premium economy and economy configuration. I doubt that UA is going to scrap CO's smaller European routes such as LIS, EDI, MAN, HAM and others. That is one of the major reasons why UA chose CO over US because of their large diverse network.



Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 4):

I'm sorry to say CO announced the cancellation of their service to Bristol (BRS). They still serve BHX, MAN, LHR and two Scotland airports if you don't mind a bit of a drive

As for BRS, it was kind of excessive to have so many UK destinations so close to each other. NCE or PSA might be a good addition.



brad Fitzpatrick
User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1888 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4886 times:
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Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 6):
As for BRS, it was kind of excessive to have so many UK destinations so close to each other. NCE or PSA might be a good addition.

I actually thought it made for great alternatives to LHR. All of the routes made money (I think even BRS did) however BRS may have been subject to incentives that were phasing out.


User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 2723 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4764 times:

OK, I'll take a stab at it. Here is the count I've come up with on 3 vs. 2 class aircraft of the merged fleet.

International aircraft with F class
744 - 24 units
772 - 46 units
763 - 21 units
Total - 91 units

International aircraft with 2 class
772 - 22 units (doesn't include 6 high density units flown by PMUA and assume GUM is treated as domestic)
764 - 16 units (assumes 5 or 6 Pacific aircraft will eventually go to European config)
762 - 9 units
763 - 14 units (discussed conversion of high density to international 2 class)
Sub -Total - 61 units
752 - 41 PMCO aircraft
Total - 102 units

I believe the 788 aircraft have been announced as 2 class aircraft, but I'm sure that could change and the 350s have not been announced.

It would take a bit of time to figure how many aircraft are needed to serve the below. Please feel free to discuss, especially the last list.

Is it fair to assume the following markets should be F markets?
LHR, BRU, GVA, ZRH, FRA, NRT, HKG, SYD

Most likely 2 class WIDEBODY markets
ATH, FCO, MXP, DME, TXL, MUC, AMS, CAI, ATH, AKL

2 class 757 markets
OSL, ARN, CPH, HAM, STR, MAD, LIS, BCN, BHX, MAN, EDI, GLA, BFS, DUB, SNN. That might be 25 aircraft's worth with several being 2X day. some of these markets could see IAD service.

And how about these markets?
PEK, ICN, PVG, EZE, GRU, GIG, ACC, LOS, DXB, KWI, DEL, BOM, TLV, CDG,


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4326 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4527 times:
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Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 4):
I'm sorry to say CO announced the cancellation of their service to Bristol (BRS). They still serve BHX, MAN, LHR and two Scotland airports if you don't mind a bit of a drive

Oh well--I'll have to adapt.

The two-track Chiltern Railway from Birmingham / Snow Hill into Marylebone Station at Great Portland Street is also a very pretty ride.

It just takes a while.


User currently offlinestaralliance85 From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4029 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 8):

Is it fair to assume the following markets should be F markets?
LHR, BRU, GVA, ZRH, FRA, NRT, HKG, SYD
Most likely 2 class WIDEBODY markets
ATH, FCO, MXP, DME, TXL, MUC, AMS, CAI, ATH, AKL
2 class 757 markets
OSL, ARN, CPH, HAM, STR, MAD, LIS, BCN, BHX, MAN, EDI, GLA, BFS, DUB, SNN. That might be 25 aircraft's worth with several being 2X day. some of these markets could see IAD service.
And how about these markets?
PEK, ICN, PVG, EZE, GRU, GIG, ACC, LOS, DXB, KWI, DEL, BOM, TLV, CDG,



UAL is most likely to make all the 777's 4 class (First, Business, Premium Economy and Economy)configuration. I would bet they will have F class to PEK, PVG, TLV and ICN in particular. Don't forget TLV is one of CO's most popular routes by having 2x's daily on the 772.

The 767 Businessfirst-premium economy and economy 3 class configuration will be just fine for GRU, EZE, and ACC. DL, US (GIG only) and some AA flights have 2 class configuration flights to either EZE, GRU and GIG and do just fine. F class market is Not needed for ACC.

CDG is questanable. UAL will might have a mix of a 4 and 3 class configuration to CDG.

For the India routes (DEL and BOM) it would be smart to have the 4 class 772 during the busy season and have 3 class configuration on the 787 during the slow season.

DXB and KWI would be strong 3 class 787 routes.



brad Fitzpatrick
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 8):
I believe the 788 aircraft have been announced as 2 class aircraft, but I'm sure that could change and the 350s have not been announced.

The 787-8s have been announced as having J and Y, nothing has been announced for the 787-9s or A350s. I would assume if F is to continue with UA into the future that either the 787-9, A350 or possibly both would have F.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 8):
LHR, BRU, GVA, ZRH, FRA, NRT, HKG, SYD

I'm wondering if EWR-HKG might switch to a J +Y configured 787-8. The rest I agree with getting three class aircraft.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineKFitz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3392 times:

CO brought 47 2-class intl. widebodies into the
merger, 36 if you discount the 762s CO can't
wait to get rid of (to the pilot unions dismay).
UA brought 91 3-cabin widebodies into the
merger, a little less than three times the amount
of aircraft here.

I wouldnt see why the CO 777s would, long-
term, remain 2 cabin when the 777/744/763
are now the flagship of the fleet. If we take COs
21 777s, together with with UAs 46, we have 67,
all of which could be 3 cabin. I wouldn't
imagine creating a new F product for these 21
birds, so that would mean the IPTE F suite on
these CO birds. Then UA could use these newly
confifured 777s to fly the routes in the CO
network that could support an F cabin? What do
you guys think?

I also don't understand why the domestic 763s
are going to be reconfigured into 2 cabin using
COs seats, as IPTE C fits more seats in the plane
using what is essentially the same seat, 2-2-2
over 2-1-2 iirc. And lets be honest, that's what
elites want - more premium seats available to
upgrade into. Maybe im wrojg and they take up
the same amoung of space, since the CO C bed
is marginally shorter in length than UA IPTE C
(as is the case on the 777).

Point is, I have not see one corroborated piece
of evidence to confirm that the CO C product is
being installed on the PMUA ghetto birds but a
post by ONE person on this website claiming to
be privy to an internal spec sheet, or something
similar. If somebody can prove me wrong then
by all means - but I've read nothing about this
anywhere. In short, ill be believe it when I see it,
just like the "supposed" relaunch of intl. United
First and Business - absolutely zero evidence to
support it. The only change to (domestic) First
I've seen is UA following PMCO in eliminating
pillows, and going com duvets to hospital gauze.
Not exactly bringing UA up to CO standards, so
far at least.

Regardless where are these 763s going to be
flying? If they do get the CO C seat, is that a
clue the airline is going to use them for PMCO
routes and take them off the UA ones? I mean
remember, these ghetto birds get around,
especially between hubs, and are nearly the
backbone of the Hawaiian route structure. With
210 seats in the back, they have a lot of
capacity.
I can't imagine the airline retrofitting them to fly
a domestic route to Hawaii so they can fill every
newly installed C seat with a customer using
upgrade instruments, which is all flights to
Hawaii are. If anything, thy eould bbe used on
old CO routes, to fill their severe lack of
widebody aircraft.

A main component of this merger nobody talks
about is that it was a means to CO immediately
solving their plane shortage issues. UA had a lot
more widebody equipment to go around, so
many that not even all of them were used for
intl flying. And we've seen it beginning already,
and continuing tto be the case if CO is taking
UAs ghetto bird 763s for their own routes.
Nobody likes the high drnsity 763s, but they
susure as hell beat a single aisle 752/753, which
in gyessing ththey are ggloing to use to at least
partially offset the UA equipment downgrades.
Nobody at EWR is complaining about loosing
their "amazing" 2 cabin 757s for the 3 cabin
United 777. PMUA routes and flyers are
experiencing all the equipment downgrades in
this merger, with CO getting the upside. Just the
way it works.

And I can't imagine EZE not being 3 cabin.
United has arrivals suite in San Paulo. AA flies
their 3 cabin 777 there as well.


User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2984 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2379 times:
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Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 10):

Post merger United will NOT consider Y+. (economy plus) a class of service. It is part of the economy cabin that you either pay to get into or is given free to elites. The "Branding" of PMCO's business class was called "BusinessFirst" (where the quality of F and C were supposed to be blended e.g. Delta) and was ...except for the PMCO BF seat which stayed an old fashioned recliner- Today to make things easier for customers to understand (internationally) there is now United First, United Business (as the lie-flat seat on both pre-merger airlines were almost identical except UA 3 class aircraft faces backward and forward, United Economy with the economy plus option) domestically (except for United p.s.) it will be like PMUA First, economy with an economy plus option.

The term "BusinessFirst" is going away as the international C class across fleet will be somewhat par! (and while the PMCO C seats all face forward, they are a bit shorter than the UA C seat and have a foot rest only half the size. Not as good for people who are 6 fleet plus - but CO always had a bad reputation for all their seat choices!



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2984 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2338 times:
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Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 10):

Thanks StarAlliance85. While I'm not a 10 million mile flier like the other gentleman I am GS and a One Million mile flier. I actually agree with you on United's flagship aircraft 747, 777 and 767's. I don't get why all of them are not fitted with 3 class PMUA hard product? I also really believe strongly in the 2 class 757's to the like of Glasgow etc. Wonderful convenience. For me, a premium flier for work puts UA so far ahead. (once the new caterer starts)

Question: are the PMUA 767-ER's (I think they are ER's) That have been reconfigured with the new F and C seats, considered "ghetto birds"?

Also, I firmly believe that with AA and TAM there must be F class available as it always has been for 20+ years. Maybe they can get away with GIG, but never GRU or EZE. There is way too much economic growth in Brazil to not serve big business and the uber rich.



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 2723 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2244 times:

Quoting KFitz (Reply 12):
I also don't understand why the domestic 763s
are going to be reconfigured into 2 cabin using
COs seats, as IPTE C fits more seats in the plane
using what is essentially the same seat, 2-2-2
over 2-1-2 iirc.

You have to look at the stats and it depends upon the aircraft.

In Business CO angled seats has 55 inch pitch vs. UA 77 inch pitch.

On the 767 to have 30 seats, CO would need 6 rows at 55 inches or 330 total inches vs. UA needing 5 rows at 77 inches or 385 inches. Interesting that the CO config would allow an extra row as the difference is exactly 55 inches. So CO 767s can have 35 seats where the UA config would allow just 30.

On the 777 there isn't as much difference with 48 passengers in Business seating: CO's config (8 rows X 6) needing 440 inches vs. UA's needing 462 inches (6 rows X8).

Based on seat maps and where doors are on aircraft, the 764 looks best in two class with the 35 CO style Business seats, which fill the first section of the aircraft. F on the 764 would probably require Business going behind Door 2.

The 763s have more room before the second door and the UA config with F/C looks to work well. If the so called ghetto birds are converted with CO Business seat, 30 Business seats would remove 3 to 4 rows of Y and 35 seats would remove 5 or 6 rows of Y. This would add between 17 and 38 Y seats vs. UA's International config bird. Those extra seats could be used on more Y heavy international markets.

I believe the merged carrier will have a mix of 2 and 3 class aircraft with 767 and 777 aircraft. There must be markets the 772 is best suited with either 2 or 3 class as there would also be with 767 routes. Note that with UA configurations, F seating is exactly equal to twice the number of seats in Business. The question is if the airline can generate twice the revenue on average of an F seat vs. Business seat. Of course many factors are involved in such a calculation as Business may or not be full on any particular flight and if F desiring passengers will stick with you in a Business seat.

On my previous post I indicated numerous routes that looked like 2 or 3 class routes and they appear to have different stage lengths and different total aircraft size needs. The merged carrier should commit to F on routes where UA would profit as they must have data on F yield, load factor and FF upgrades on all routes. A standardized Business product should be provided whether there is F on the aircraft or not and if the similar seats of PMCO and PMUA are utilized.


User currently offlineuaord2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 267 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2194 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 14):
Question: are the PMUA 767-ER's (I think they are ER's) That have been reconfigured with the new F and C seats, considered "ghetto birds"?

The term Ghetto Bird is reserved for the UA 2-Class 767.


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2461 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2135 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 11):
I'm wondering if EWR-HKG might switch to a J +Y configured 787-8. The rest I agree with getting three class aircraft.

I don't see UA cutting EWR-HKG capacity. The 788 is fairly close in range to the 772ER. I would expect EWR-HKG to stay as-is. One or both of the India flights will be early 787 candidates, IMO.

Quoting KFitz (Reply 12):
as IPTE C fits more seats in the plane
using what is essentially the same seat, 2-2-2
over 2-1-2 iirc.
CALPSAFltSkeds covered that pretty well.

Quoting KFitz (Reply 12):
Point is, I have not see one corroborated piece
of evidence to confirm that the CO C product is
being installed on the PMUA ghetto birds but a
post by ONE person on this website claiming to
be privy to an internal spec sheet, or something
similar.

It's frustrating to me too but rest assured that this is indeed the case. Confirmation from well-informed posters here and employee contacts I trust are good enough for me. I doubt we'll see an official press release. The mods will apparently be running at the same time as the PMCO 764s go in for their flats.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1975 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 8):
And how about these markets?
PEK, ICN, PVG, EZE, GRU, GIG, ACC, LOS, DXB, KWI, DEL, BOM, TLV, CDG,
Quoting VC10er (Reply 14):
Also, I firmly believe that with AA and TAM there must be F class available as it always has been for 20+ years. Maybe they can get away with GIG, but never GRU or EZE. There is way too much economic growth in Brazil to not serve big business and the uber rich.

UA runs just one route non-stop to Rio, and it's not a simple route but rather an important oil to oil route with very high demand and among the top 3 (if not the top one) yields between US and Brazil (even without F). It's just waste of money (for UA) not to offer F on IAH-GIG. Yields are good for the flight without F compared to F routes , so imagine what would be with F class.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1734 times:

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 17):
I don't see UA cutting EWR-HKG capacity. The 788 is fairly close in range to the 772ER. I would expect EWR-HKG to stay as-is. One or both of the India flights will be early 787 candidates, IMO.

While I agree that the 787-9 would be better for EWR-HKG because it's closer in size to the 777-200ER, until those aircraft arrive the 787-8 might be a good choice for two reasons;

1.) Reduced fuel burn of the 787-8 on such a ultra long haul would add up to a lot of fuel savings
2.) Cabin comfort features of the 787 such as higher humidity levels and lower atmosphere creates a little less stress on the body during such a long flight.

With regards to the India flights I see those flights requiring more seats than the Hong Kong flights, demand for India travel from EWR is tremendous which is why there are three airlines flying four daily flights to India everyday from EWR.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2984 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1650 times:
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Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):

Oi, Lipe, Bom dia amigo!

You are again 100% right. I believe that UA requires First to GIG from Texas! My NY centric mind was thinking when I wrote my post. United needs to put a 3 class, First, Business and economy (with a big E+ section) 777 to GRU 7 days a week. Today, if I wish to fly UA and had to be routed through IAH to is not going to happen. I will fly the non-stop TAM flight....which has F by the way! Small, but has F. I firmly believe out of such a giant hub with huge feeds (a giant Brazilian community in Kearney NJ just 5 miles away) must start a non-stop from EWR, and while I'd prefer an F class, to start a 2 class PMCO 767 would work for me. I'm not Smisek so all I can do is rant here. It's what I think " The World's Leading Airline" should do - especially if TAM goes to One World. (and they shoud serve Caipirinhas!)
Abraço

[Edited 2011-07-10 08:51:58]


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