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LX Sending Broken Aircraft To BEG  
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2611 posts, RR: 6
Posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12188 times:
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Morning,

I just came across a news article in a Serbian newspaper which stated that the Serbian Civil Aviation Directorate (SCAD) has found numerous problems with Helvetic's Fokker 100s that are used sometimes to Belgrade (operated by Swiss).

The directorate stated that there were oil leakages from both engines, damaged paint and that the space around the doors was also damaged.
They have also stated that this was not the only case but that these malfunctions were noted numerous times before.


Swiss had recently doubled their frequencies from Zurich to Belgrade, from 7 to 14 weekly flights. They mostly use their A320 family however sometimes their morning or evening flights are operated by the Fokker 100s.

Here is a link to the article: (Serbian only, sorry)
http://www.pressonline.rs/sr/vesti/v...+%C5%A1alju+neispravne+avione.html

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineviasa From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12070 times:

I think that the 2L F100s were always miles better than the very old JAT 733s... But it is true, that Helvetic has sometimes problemes with there aircrafts.

Today the two LX flights were operated by an A319 (HB-IPS) and an A320 (HB-IJE).


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2611 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11999 times:
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Quoting viasa (Reply 1):
I think that the 2L F100s were always miles better than the very old JAT 733s

What has Jat to do with anything here? Plus, these very old 733s were mostly parked during the 90s due to the sanctions and have been recently renovated. Plus, I don't think the age of the airplanes have anything to do with these problems, apparently it's the way they are maintained.

Quoting viasa (Reply 1):
Today the two LX flights were operated by an A319 (HB-IPS) and an A320 (HB-IJE).

Most of the flights to Belgrade are operated by the A320 family but sometimes the F100s are sent to Belgrade, mostly on the evening flights. It was during those times that these problems were found.


User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11717 times:

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
numerous problems with Helvetic's Fokker 100s that are used sometimes to Belgrade (operated by Swiss)

Sorry to nitpick, but that should read "operated for Swiss".

It's Helvetic's problem, not Swiss's.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26954 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11701 times:

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 3):

But still has a knock on effect to the Swiss brand as Swiss have allowed them to
operate their flights/schedules.


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2611 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11662 times:
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Quoting flyingalex (Reply 3):
It's Helvetic's problem, not Swiss's.
Quoting OA260 (Reply 4):

But still has a knock on effect to the Swiss brand as Swiss have allowed them to
operate their flights/schedules.

Like OA260 pointed out, these kind of problem damage the image of Swiss. People who end up flying on Helvetic book their flights with Swiss.


User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11527 times:

This wetlease situation with the F100's really needs to end

User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2611 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11509 times:
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Quoting LXA340 (Reply 6):
This wetlease situation with the F100's really needs to end

Where there other similar problems?


User currently offlinevegas005 From Switzerland, joined Mar 2005, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11271 times:

I have flown Helvetic more than 60 times ZRH-BHX and ZRH-BRU and I have never had a flight delayed due to mechanical issues. The crew are great, the legroom and seat pitch are excellent and they are on-time. The planes are a bit old, but so far I have had no issues.

User currently offlineC680 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11195 times:

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
oil leakages from both engines, damaged paint and that the space around the doors was also damaged

That description can be applied to about 97% of all airplanes on the planet.

They might as well say that they also discovered that some of the airport vehicles have door dents and paint scratches.



My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2611 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 11019 times:
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Quoting C680 (Reply 9):
They might as well say that they also discovered that some of the airport vehicles have door dents and paint scratches.

Yes, but we are not talking about some random mechanic's report but that of the serbian civil aviation directorate. I am sure that if they voiced their concern then there are grounds for that.


User currently offlinejustplanes From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 886 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10826 times:

This really makes me LOL and I need to tell a little story...
Over the years we've filmed more than 230 airlines and there has only been 1 where we did not release the DVD... Guess who  
Anyway after seeing the DVD they had a list of things they did not want to show such as a dirty cockpit window... the list was so long and so ridiculous that I decided not to even bother to release the program.. I figured let this airline live out its course and when they're gone we'll release it  
Seems they mind a dirty cockpit window but don't mind leaking engines and such...
Sorry but I just had to share this one...


User currently offlineC680 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10506 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 10):
Yes, but we are not talking about some random mechanic's report but that of the serbian civil aviation directorate. I am sure that if they voiced their concern then there are grounds for that.

That's all fine and good, but more specifics are needed from the report before it is possible to have an opinion about the seriousness of the situation.

Almost every engine leaks some oil. How much over what time period?

Was the paint damage from normal wear and tear? Or did it indicate a structural problem? (I am unaware of any aircraft that has failed due to old paint)

Was the damage to the doors normal "ramp rash" or were their more serious problems?

The F100 is far from a new model, and as such should have more rigiours inspections, but the translation of the Serbian report is very general in nature and lacks the details needed for any analysis.



My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
User currently offlinesaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9738 times:

The airplanes are either airworthy or they're not. Vague descriptions of problems do not an illegal or unsafe situation make. Things may have been within tolerances or deferred according to an MEL but what I read here means little without concrete evidence to support allegations of an unsafe operation.


smrtrthnu
User currently offlineBEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 968 posts, RR: 18
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9388 times:
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According to the source, the actual report is not published online, but is available in the printed version. I hope someone can scan and send. That would help.

BEG2IAH



FAA killed the purpose of my old signature: Use of approved electronic devices is now permitted.
User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9141 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 7):
Where there other similar problems?

These planes are old and don't match the LX product nevertheless if the swiss aviation authority let's these planes fly and SWISS is using Helvetic as a wetlease partner all the necesary safety regulations are kept by that airline. I would also assume that the Swiss aviation authority is more strict than the one from Serbia. I am sure if we take JU's fleet under very close inspection various things will be found.


User currently offline7673mech From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8730 times:
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Quoting C680 (Reply 9):
That description can be applied to about 97% of all airplanes on the planet.

Well put.
It seems there is more to this story - maybe politics?

Almost every narrow body aircraft is hammered around the entry doors, paint flakes and chips are common after awhile, engines leak oil.

I wonder what the real reason for the report is - do they want all Airbii services - a la Nigeria and the 777?
So they want Swiss off the route?
(Swiss or its agent).

Interesting.


User currently offlinezkeoj From New Zealand, joined Feb 2005, 1012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8651 times:

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
damaged paint

hmm, this made me laugh. Never heard that paint (or the lack thereof) is a safety concern. Maybe I am ignorant - can anybody tell me if it could indeed be a safety concern (I am serious here)? It's not that the wings are painted and the airflow could be disturbed?

Cheers
micha


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2611 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8329 times:
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Quoting saab2000 (Reply 13):
but what I read here means little without concrete evidence to support allegations of an unsafe operation.

Well concrete evidence is not there, this is just an article from the online version of the newspaper. At the end of the article it did say that more details are given in the printed edition. I do not have acess to the printed edition so i can't help you there.

Quoting C680 (Reply 12):
That's all fine and good, but more specifics are needed from the report before it is possible to have an opinion about the seriousness of the situation.

As mentioned above, there are more evidence in the printed version of the newspaper which I do not have.

Quoting 7673mech (Reply 16):
I wonder what the real reason for the report is - do they want all Airbii services - a la Nigeria and the 777?
So they want Swiss off the route?

Highly doubt it as our civil aviation directorate is rather in love with all the foreign carriers in Belgrade.


User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2238 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8246 times:

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 15):
I would also assume that the Swiss aviation authority is more strict than the one from Serbia. I am sure if we take JU's fleet under very close inspection various things will be found.

Attack is the best defence, always has been, always will be.

The point of the story is vague, I agree, and would have dismissed it plainly as another typical media hysteria, BUT - I have personally flown Helvetic operated LX flights to ZRH from BEG and always felt let down - from the mainline Swiss product. The F100s are old and diminish the promoted LX panache. We were delayed in ZRH once due to a faulty indicator apparently - took them just under an hour to sort out - it happens to all airlines I know, but coupled with the general downgrade from the Airbus product, leaves one disappointed with LX "superiority".

I hope it was just a temporary agreement (Helvetic to BEG) and that LX will indeed operate its flights with own equipment in the future.



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineBEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 968 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6390 times:
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Quoting LXA340 (Reply 15):
I would also assume that the Swiss aviation authority is more strict than the one from Serbia. I am sure if we take JU's fleet under very close inspection various things will be found.

LXA340,

Here is a good example how violations on JU's fleet (on B733 YU-ANF, to be precise) were handled. Please refer to an earlier thread, post #10:

Air India In Race To Buy Jat Airways (by Sunnyb May 30 2007 in Civil Aviation)

On another note, I would like to see the actual report, since journalists probably just picked what they found interesting (i.e., paint). Civil Aviation Directorate would not raise this issue unless something was a real problem.

BEG2IAH



FAA killed the purpose of my old signature: Use of approved electronic devices is now permitted.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13033 posts, RR: 100
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6148 times:
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Quoting C680 (Reply 9):
That description can be applied to about 97% of all airplanes on the planet.

They might as well say that they also discovered that some of the airport vehicles have door dents and paint scratches.

That was my thought. Next they'll find dents and dings where the jetway touches the aircraft (if these see a jetway).

Man, I'd hate to see the inspection of *any* A320 with V2500s... (notorious oil leakers. Great engines, they just have a little oil assist.)

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 655 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5720 times:

If a little missing paint is cause for concern, AA should be grounded until they paint their planes   

User currently offlineBEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 968 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5404 times:
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There is nothing on Directorate's website: http://www.cad.gov.rs/en/ so unless we see the infamous print edition which apparently contains the report, we might be wasting time discussing here. I really doubt they would make a fuss about some chipped paint.

BEG2IAH



FAA killed the purpose of my old signature: Use of approved electronic devices is now permitted.
User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4268 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5366 times:

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
I just came across a news article in a Serbian newspaper which stated that the Serbian Civil Aviation Directorate (SCAD) has found numerous problems with Helvetic's Fokker 100s that are used sometimes to Belgrade (operated by Swiss).

Knowing BEG, where I was a few years ago, and the airport CEO was drinking liqour with 40% alcohol during duty time in his office and smoking like a chimney all day, the mess in their ATC tower (I was upstairs, it was an old place), I have some personal opinions about BEG. But... they were building new buildings etc, so it might be better in these days. I can't comment. Just personal opinion here. But it makes me feel the report from SCAD is not so important to me.

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
The directorate stated that there were oil leakages from both engines,

As said, over 95% of the aircrafts has. It's a bit of a non-issue since this is afaik not a forbidden item.

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
damaged paint

The SCAD is about safety isn't it? Since when are they around to check the paint? It's a non-issue for them.

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
the space around the doors was also damaged.

Because the airsteps from ground handling companies which is placed against the fuselage for boarding procedures probably? It always gives some 'damage' around these areas, but that doesn't mean it's unsafe or out of limits. It won't be stuctural damages, most probably.

I smell there is something 'else' with this report or news article. It doesn't feel good or fair to me. Is JAT loosing a lot of traffic or passengers on this route? I remember them operarating with old ATR-72s?

btw I do not wanna blame anybody, just give my reply from personal thoughts and opinion



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
25 iainbhx : I haven't flown quite as much BHX-ZRH, but I would certainly agree on the lack of delays due to mechanical issues. I have to say that I find the C-cl
26 ju068 : Actually I know the CEO of Belgrade airport and the guy doesn't smoke nor does he drink. I do not know who you met but it wasn't the CEO of the airpo
27 G-CIVP : That reminds me, given the quality of a video you once sent me, I wish you hadn't bothered to film it either! LOL!
28 B738FlyUIA : I do agree and there has been a article in SwissNewspaper about this, that you book LX for example and Fly 2L or WU (EDW). Find it a little a mess to
29 yamatthey : Flying with Helvetic Airways Fokker 100 is not fun and Swiss receive a lot of complains from passengers, but Swiss has a lack of pilots and the only s
30 airbuseric : Is there a difference between Helvetic F100's and Contact Air F100's ? I can understand of technical issues (all F100 operators seems to have them th
31 iainbhx : 1. F100 means guarenteed busgate at ZRH, which means the baggage nazis for the non-Schengen gates. 2. Neither Helvetic or Contact are as reliable as
32 aviationmaster : While not perfect aircraft, the F100 break down far less than LX's RJ100s. Euro non-Schengen flights leave from the B bus gates regardless of them bei
33 iainbhx : I appreciate that is currently the case, however, when Switzerland was not in Schengen, the F100's were remote stands, as I'm sure you can appreciate
34 Post contains links B738FlyUIA : http://www.20min.ch/news/kreuz_und_q...egt--defekt--nach-Belgrad-13720188 Here a article in German...
35 Post contains links viasa : Today this story is in the swiss newspaper "20 Minuten". Here the article online: http://www.20min.ch/news/kreuz_und_q...egt--defekt--nach-Belgrad-13
36 bwaflyer : bmi wetlease on LHR-GVA finished in March - all flights operated by Swiss now
37 ju068 : Like I said, Jat is not protected at all by the Serbian aviation directorate. Plus, Jat is so lost and confused at this time that they couldn't stage
38 sandroZRH : There are baggage rules, and they are there for a reason. I wish all gate agents would enforce them as strictly as the B gates agents supposedly do,
39 yamatthey : BMI operate Basel - London LHR and Basel - Manchester on behalf of Swiss with an Airbus A319.
40 viasa : Both are correct. The flight GVA-LHR-GVA was only an LX flight with an A320 wetleased from BMI (G-MIDY), this leasing is now terminated. But the flig
41 iainbhx : Perhaps you would like to obey your own baggage rules, that's the point. Your baggage rules state Swiss European Business Class - 2 pieces - 8kg per
42 Post contains images sandroZRH : So, next time, why don't you insist they measure it, and if they refuse, measure it yourself? The problem is that at many stations, and indeed ZRH as
43 iainbhx : They just grabbed it and tagged it, no "please" no "can we measure this". Yes, I did complain and had to get it back to get the laptop out of the pad
44 Post contains images aviationmaster : LX's hand baggage rules also clearly state the following: "In exceptional cases, we ask our passengers to check in their hand baggage. This is primari
45 iainbhx : No problem, ticket cancelled and moved to LH, ZRH is obviously well worth avoiding given the attitude of the staff. However, I will continue to reite
46 musapapaya : Nicely put Sandro! musapapaya
47 Eurohub : I don't agree with some of iainbhx's other comments regarding LX/ZRH but he's on the money with points 3 and 4; and it's partly for those reasons I s
48 Post contains images sandroZRH : Jeesus, stop behaving like a ten year old! And did it ever occur to you that the money will go to the same company anyway? Nice one.
49 ju068 : It's the same company but the overall experience is not the same. Recently I flew on LX from Belgrade to Barcelona and I have to admit that I wasn't
50 ZRH : Hehe, you are about the only passenger. A bit weird. In most passenger interviews ZRH belongs to best airports in Europe and the world incl the frien
51 Post contains links rheinwaldner : I am sure there is no reason for safety concerns. Probably. This is your vote. Votes from 18.8 million recently resulted in the reverse order: - Best
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