bjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 2776 posts, RR: 2 Posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2420 times:
As far as I can tell LAS is only served by 5 routes to Mexico...MEX, MTY, GDL, HMO, and SJD. Why so little Vegas/Mexico action? Even berfore the economic meltdown there was little service also. I would think the beach towns would be naturals...PVR, MZT, MZO, ZIH for Vegans R&R.
"An idea has to be incredibly absurd to have any reasonable chance of succeeding" --A. Einstein
srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2370 times:
I would venture to guess that it's due to Las Vegas being within a short flight of airline hubs at PHX, LAX, SLC and DEN. Even when America West/US Airways had their hub at LAS, there wasn't much service to Mexico from there, with service to MEX.
Another thing that may have hampered attempts at increased service to Mexico is Terminal 2. It's a rather small terminal for handling international flights and perhaps never has had enough available gate space at the preferred times to make more flights to Mexican destinations successful. Maybe when Terminal 3 opens up next year LAS may see more service to Mexico.
MARK8762 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 127 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2312 times:
Quoting srbmod (Reply 1): Another thing that may have hampered attempts at increased service to Mexico is Terminal 2. It's a rather small terminal for handling international flights and perhaps never has had enough available gate space at the preferred times to make more flights to Mexican destinations successful. Maybe when Terminal 3 opens up next year LAS may see more service to Mexico.
This is very true. Customs is not 24/7 which limits the times flights can come and go, which when I was with AWA/US was a deal breaker. We often would have to divert delayed inbound flights to TUS to clear customs. Hopefully this will change when T3 opens.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2137 times:
Quoting srbmod (Reply 1): Even when America West/US Airways had their hub at LAS, there wasn't much service to Mexico from there, with service to MEX.
goblin211 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2121 times:
There's also competition in SFO and SAN and I'm sure SNA too. Too much competition and a small terminal to accommodate more than a few flights.
crownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1595 posts, RR: 6 Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1856 times:
LAS happens to one of the worst cities for outbound leisure flights. A look at the international activity in LAS and you will see that it caters 100% to inbound traffic. The unusual fact is, the city's population is that of nearly 2 million people and you would think residents would want "out of there" for vacation (especially during the hot summers), but for some reason, outbound traffic is poorly recognized and it is not promoted.
The city, the LVCA, the casinos, etc. work very hard to bring people into Las Vegas from all over the world, but the airlines do not seem interested in recognizing that these 2 million residents want to leave their city. There is almost a conspiracy to prevent outbound travel to any destination, because that means there is a potential for a lost seat for an inbound passenger that generates spending in Las Vegas. For international flights, I not only think it is a conspiracy, but a fact. Air fares for outbound international travel are artificially higher than they are for departures from comparable cities. You'll never see an ad in any Las Vegas publication promoting service to London, Manchester, Frankfurt, Paris, Seoul, Manila and the plethora of Mexican and Canadian destinations. JAL operated at LAS for nearly 10 years and I would say that 99% of the residents never even knew this. A billboard promoting service to any of these destinations? Please....Go to any other city, and you frequently see these billboards promoting outbound travel.
In the big picture, it just seems every entity thinks nobody wants to leave LAS. Having lived in that city, I frequently felt the opposite!
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22057 posts, RR: 51 Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1811 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter): I would think the beach towns would be naturals...PVR, MZT, MZO, ZIH for Vegans R&R.
You don't quite understand the nature of LAS-Mexico service.
The flights that exist today primarily cater to ethnic traffic, mostly ones that are employed in the various industries in Vegas plus in the case of Mexico City especially for Mexicans that come to vacation in Vegas.
Quoting crownvic (Reply 5): LAS happens to one of the worst cities for outbound leisure flights.
One reason for that is that the demographics of Vegas residents are not the richest (esp now after the housing bust), with many working in service industries which don't produce the highest incomes. In addition non-native ones also tend to vacation when they can back to their US states of origin, not go abroad.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4721 posts, RR: 15 Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1756 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter): I would think the beach towns would be naturals...PVR, MZT, MZO, ZIH for Vegans R&R
I was going to ask exactly who you expected to fill up those Mexican resort flights you think LAS should have -- outbound FROM Vegas or outbound from the resort cities in Mexico TO Vegas? Of course the previous 2 posts have explained all of that very well.
Also remember that MX has the rights to some of the LAS-Mexico routes and there isn't much happening right now on those! So there really should be more Mexico service now than there is due to that situation. Another thread right now is discussing the fact that the DOT has just given some of those Mexico-U.S. authorities belonging to MX to Volaris so we may very well see some additional LAS-Mexico flights pretty soon... but I doubt very much that you will see flights to the w/c of Mexico any time in the near future. Certainly LAS-MEX is one route that will see service soon.
MARK8762 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 127 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1714 times:
Quoting crownvic (Reply 5): You'll never see an ad in any Las Vegas publication promoting service to London, Manchester, Frankfurt, Paris, Seoul, Manila and the plethora of Mexican and Canadian destinations
I see ads for Korean several times a day on Vegas TV stations. I also have seen several ads for Asiana and they dont even serve LAS, but I would guess they feel they need to since their biggest competitor is advertising so heavily here.
IADLHR From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 669 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1249 times:
Quoting crownvic (Reply 5): LAS happens to one of the worst cities for outbound leisure flights. A look at the international activity in LAS and you will see that it caters 100% to inbound traffic. The unusual fact is, the city's population is that of nearly 2 million people and you would think residents would want "out of there" for vacation (especially during the hot summers), but for some reason, outbound traffic is poorly recognized and it is not promoted.
I absolutely agree 100%. I know ,some ,people who moved there about 30 years ago They have not been out of Vegas in 30 years. According to them, they have no reason to go anywhere for anything as they have everything in Vegas.
One time, I tried to meet them in Denver. They looked down their nose at anyplace but LAS.
They, have quite ill,family members in BOS. It seemed like they were going to finally leave LAS and go to BOS for a visit. However, their co-workers and neighbors reminded them they have everything they need in LAS.
There is a mindset in LAS that is impossible to comprehend.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1220 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter): As far as I can tell LAS is only served by 5 routes to Mexico...MEX, MTY, GDL, HMO, and SJD. Why so little Vegas/Mexico action? Even berfore the economic meltdown there was little service also. I would think the beach towns would be naturals...PVR, MZT, MZO, ZIH for Vegans R&R.
There are even fewer MCO-Mexico routes which is even odder in my opinion. The issue in both cases relates to the difficulty of getting a U.S. visa.
siromega From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1168 times:
Quoting MARK8762 (Reply 8): I see ads for Korean several times a day on Vegas TV stations. I also have seen several ads for Asiana and they dont even serve LAS, but I would guess they feel they need to since their biggest competitor is advertising so heavily here.
I see lots of ads for Korean Air on TV too, but I'm guessing those are national ads, not local ones.
As a resident who just returned from a trip to his state of origin to see family (not a vacation), I agree that there isn't many deals for locals to fly out of Vegas. Whenever I look at DING or SAAver or Delta's last minute deals, nothing starting in Vegas is available that's a flight to a place I'd actually like to go. And I'm a single guy who has an incredibly flexible schedule.
MayaviaERJ190 From Mexico, joined Jan 2008, 272 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1023 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter): LAS is only served by 5 routes to Mexico...MEX, MTY, GDL, HMO, and SJD.
Forget O/D, Biz, Ethnic and all that stuff. Airlines only fly where the money is at.
Just look at it this way: MEX, GDL, MTY, HMO and SJD add up to 28 million people (roughly a quarter of all Mexico) and many people want to go to LAS.
On the other side 2 million people in Las Vegas can easily be distributed to ANY place in Mexico as MEX, MTY, GDL and HMO happen to be all of AeroMexico's national hubs.
And wow!, which other country, maybe other than Canada and just a very few others, has five gateways to LAS?
It is not a matter of stereotypes, it is a matter of money.
The other 350 million Americans can come to Mexico through a zillion flights out of IAH, LAX, SFO, PHX, JFK, EWR, ORD, MIA and DEN just to mention a few.
So many Mexicans go to Vegas that it has been the only airport outside of Mexico to see, at the same hour on the same tarmac at almost neighboring gates, metal from four different Mexican airlines.
Airlines have even opened seasonal flights to LAS out of TRC and some other smaller cities.
If there was big money involved in catering for just under 2 million Las Vegans, flights would be there, but anyway, with those four AM hubs, believe me, I'd be surprised if there is any state in Mexico to which you can't get in just two hops out of LAS.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1008 times:
To my knowledge, there is no N/S service currently from LAS to either SJD or HMO
breaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 996 times:
Quoting crownvic (Reply 5): LAS happens to one of the worst cities for outbound leisure flights. A look at the international activity in LAS and you will see that it caters 100% to inbound traffic. The unusual fact is, the city's population is that of nearly 2 million people and you would think residents would want "out of there" for vacation (especially during the hot summers), but for some reason, outbound traffic is poorly recognized and it is not promoted.
I totally understand your point, but lost on me is the fact that what airplanes go in, must go out. So the world to LAS, doesn't that mean LAS back to the world? Or are you suggesting there's just not enough seats for both inbound and outbound at the same time? Thanks for your thoughts.
Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
crownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1595 posts, RR: 6 Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 950 times:
MARK8762...Not sure what your seeing, but the KAL ads are nationally televised (as siromega pointed out) and you could see those in Paducah, Kentucky! As for Asiana, I have never heard or seen any Asiana ads in LAS. There is a defined difference in local advertising vs. national advertising. The last time I saw an ad in the local LV newspaper for an airline was years ago when Mexicana added service. There has been nothing since.
breaker1011...Yes, once the inbound seats are booked, which tend to be heavy (and frequently far in advance), it leaves very little availability for LAS locals booking outbound. It is a common problem when you live in a popular destination city. Then when the LVCA gets involved with any incentives with a new international carrier, there is definitely a lack of push for booking outbound seats as they do not want to block potential inbound visitors.
While some of this is my own speculation, I can only share my experience of what I have seen for the local LAS resident and there is very little offered to them.
blueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3126 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 905 times:
At times, there are up to three non-stop flights a day to HNL (two Hawaiian and a charter - Omni I think). There's your beach traffic (to be fair, a large number of passengers is VFR Hawaiians who moved to Las Vegas).
Quoting crownvic (Reply 5): Air fares for outbound international travel are artificially higher than they are for departures from comparable cities.
Can't speak for Asia, but for Europe that is simply not accurate (anymore). I checked both public fares and our corporate fares from LAS, LAX, PHX and SFO to several cities in Europe and I found that the only market where LAS is consistently more expensive is FRA. For most other destinations, prices ex LAS are in line with PHX, and lower than LAX or SFO. For London, it's a four-way tie.
bjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 2776 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 820 times:
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 18): At times, there are up to three non-stop flights a day to HNL (two Hawaiian and a charter - Omni I think). There's your beach traffic (to be fair, a large number of passengers is VFR Hawaiians who moved to Las Vegas).
Yeah so much so that Hawai'ians joke that LAS is the 9th island.
"An idea has to be incredibly absurd to have any reasonable chance of succeeding" --A. Einstein
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 711 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter): As far as I can tell LAS is only served by 5 routes to Mexico...MEX, MTY, GDL, HMO, and SJD. Why so little Vegas/Mexico action?
A very very small percentage of Mexico has the money to fly to vacation and gamble in Vegas so i don't think you should expect too long a list. The traffic i bet is mostly the more affluent residents headed to vacation or legal workers heading home. Any trip to Vegas you see TONS of Mexicans working from the super annoying handing out cards on the strip to most of the maids and short order cooks.
The cities that have service represent the very small percentage in a few cities where there are enough people to vacation in Vegas and workers headed home boosts these cities. The list seems pretty much what i would expect and the conditions probably warrant. I don't think your gonna find too many people from Vegas vacation in Mexico beach towns certainly not enough for flights. With all that said the WN/Volaris relationship might add a few more flights to get all the Southwest connections possible at Mccarran.
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7177 posts, RR: 45 Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 674 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 20): A very very small percentage of Mexico has the money to fly to vacation and gamble in Vegas
In a country of 110 - 120 million inhabitants, a small percentage could still be an awful lot of people that could actually constitute a market of decent size. I am quite sure that more than 10% of the population (and I am being veeeeeery conservative) can afford a yearly trip to the U.S. if not more. There is a lot of potential.
I agree, for the time being, the list is basically MEX, MTY and GDL. Tijuana is a quite large city and has a fair number of very wealthy inhabitants, but those will fly or drive from San Diego, so TIJ will never make the list unless Volaris uses it as a sort of hub.
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One reason for that is that the demographics of Vegas residents are not the richest (esp now after the housing bust), with many working in service industries which don't produce the highest incomes. In addition non-native ones also tend to vacation when they can back to their US states of origin, not go abroad.
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