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Video: JFK Terminal 4 Upgrades By DL  
User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 535 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9973 times:

http://multivu.prnewswire.com/mnr/delta/47825/

A story and a video are there. I looked on youtube and couldn't find a video. It looks great, and the new Sky Club looks like it will have awesome views. Once the construction is over, I cannot wait to try it!

(mods - sorry if this has been posted, couldn't find it!)


Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
98 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9900 times:

Looks pretty cool! I still think it will not be an ideal setup--the concourse will be rather long, and not ideal for domestic flights. But obviously a major improvement over T3.

Some questions I still have...we were discussing this in another thread a few weeks ago, but no clear answers:

Since they are expanding the main check-in hall, will they decide to relocate the TSA checkpoint to that level so that all of the stores and restaurants will now be airside? Also still not clear on where the airlines currently in T4 will move to...

I also hope they add more restaurants and retail to the concourse. Right now it is rather empty.


User currently offlinepdpsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1116 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9803 times:

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 1):
I still think it will not be an ideal setup--the concourse will be rather long, and not ideal for domestic flights. But obviously a major improvement over T3.

Sure, I guess an improvement over T3, but several questions remain regarding DL's renovated presence at its JFK hub:

- Will DL have exclusive access to the expanded northern pier of T4 IAT? What will happen to the other T4 tenants using the current pre-expansion northern pier

- Having domestic flights from T2, connected to T4 via a super-long movable walkway appears to be unwieldy and cumbersome, at best. What will DL do to integrate these two terminals?

- What about the never-ending debate regarding DL's presence at LGA and JFK? While these airports are, at least, in the same borough, they are literally miles apart. Yes, I know both UA and AA are able to handle their hubs at EWR and JFK, respectively, while maintaining a presence at LGA, but it appears DL's LGA activity is larger than its two competitors

- The entire project appears to be a "slap-dash, quickie fix" to the poor facilities DL currently operates at JFK. Would a new "mega-terminal" located where T3 and T2 are currently located have been a better option?

- Will the new T4 allow DL to maximize its resources at its JFK hub?

Let's hope for the best...


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11632 posts, RR: 61
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9771 times:

Cool video - looks pretty nice.

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 2):
Will DL have exclusive access to the expanded northern pier of T4 IAT?

I believe they will.

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 2):
Having domestic flights from T2, connected to T4 via a super-long movable walkway appears to be unwieldy and cumbersome, at best. What will DL do to integrate these two terminals?

It's a suboptimal solution, but given the time and cost constraints they were working under, it was the solution they had to work with.

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 2):
What about the never-ending debate regarding DL's presence at LGA and JFK?

Not much debate. I don't think Delta is under any illusions that a split JFK/LGA operation can ever really function in any form as a successful, viable, and competitive unified hub operation competitive with United at EWR. That will just never happen. What Delta is after is more to optimize LGA for domestic connections (especially the Northeast), JFK for longhaul domestic/international connections, and both for lots of O&D demand generated by the Tri-State area itself.

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 2):
The entire project appears to be a "slap-dash, quickie fix" to the poor facilities DL currently operates at JFK. Would a new "mega-terminal" located where T3 and T2 are currently located have been a better option?

Define "better" option. Would one single mega terminal over the combined footprint have been probably a more aesthetically and functionally pleasing solution, long-term? Sure - probably. But it also would probably have cost at least double, if not three times, the price of Delta's current solution.

Given how uncompetitive and sub-par the facilities are today, and the still-challenging capital/credit markets, Delta made the - I think prudent - decision to go for a smaller, less "mega" fix now, with the opportunity to further improve it in time with, say, a T2 replacement built roughly on the space where T2/T3 is today.


User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9696 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 3):
with the opportunity to further improve it in time with, say, a T2 replacement built roughly on the space where T2/T3 is today.

I would not be surprised if after T4 is finished (and the slot swap is fully functioning at LGA with construction modifications), that DL comes back and builds a new domestic terminal. It would certainly make them the market leader in NY if it were sustainable at both locations.



Quoting pdpsol (Reply 2):
What will happen to the other T4 tenants using the current pre-expansion northern pier

I think this is the most interesting question. I don't know if slowly they will try to make T4 at JFK like T4 at LHR where it is a mostly Skyteam centric terminal. However, I don't know where you would put the displaced carriers if you could get them to move.



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9636 times:

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 2):
- The entire project appears to be a "slap-dash, quickie fix" to the poor facilities DL currently operates at JFK. Would a new "mega-terminal" located where T3 and T2 are currently located have been a better option?

Slap-dash and outdated given the airport facilities that will come online in the US in the next year or so. I am specifically thinking of the new TBIT at LAX and Miami's North Terminal. Both of them were designed to have concourses that were two storeys tall and wide enough to provide moving walkways in the middle and holdrooms off to the side. Both of them were also designed to minimize the amount of walking a passenger has to do to get to a gate, with TBIT's linear concourse plan and Miami's skytrain. Add to that all of the interior features (from floors to IEM) that will be unique to those airport facilities and Delta's T4 won't look so new.

And, while at JFK, Delta won't be competing directly with these facilities, it will be what passengers come to expect from an international airline at a top gateway city, even a US airline given that AA is the primary occupant of the Miami North Terminal and will be using TBIT West as an extension of its own terminal at LAX.

As to its direct competitors at JFK, I am not sure it actually puts Delta on an equal footing there as well. To me, the biggest problem with T4 has always been the lack of space in the concourses. The visual tour does not convince me that the addition will be any wider or taller, especially if as in the video they are going to put rows of seats in the middle of the passageway.


User currently offlineBurj From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 901 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9514 times:

If you watch the video, at about 2:35, you can see a father release his zombie child to run towards the returning mother in the most awkward run ever....

Link to the youtube site with the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxK6-wO1Zys

[Edited 2011-07-19 09:52:34]

User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9374 times:
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Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 5):

Actually u can. If u look around 1:34 into the video u can clearly see that the expanded concourse will be wider after the bend. And every drawing that they have put out shows the same thing. Not meant as an attack on u personally but I've seen many posts saying the same thing u are about the width of the extension. Im not sure what im looking at but from day one it has looked obvious that it will be wider, at least to me.


User currently offlinejrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9369 times:

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 1):
Since they are expanding the main check-in hall, will they decide to relocate the TSA checkpoint to that level so that all of the stores and restaurants will now be airside? Also still not clear on where the airlines currently in T4 will move to...

I believe that the new security checkpoint will make almost all of the existing restaurants and shops airside. From the video, it looks as though the security check will be on the same level as check-in, with shops and restaurants being one level below. The checkpoints at the concourses will be eliminated. This will make the entire terminal a better experience, in my opinion.

Also - there is a second phase, which has been designed though not funded. For a short while, there was an image of this on Delta's website. It basically includes the expansion of the other pier (the one Delta is not going to be regularly using), as well as an RJ expansion on the end of the Delta pier.

I think the question about what to do with T2 is still a good one. It could be completed rebuilt, or just renovated. Also - the lasting question if T2 will be connected to T1 airside is also a good one.

[Edited 2011-07-19 10:46:24]

User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9122 times:

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 7):
Actually u can. If u look around 1:34 into the video u can clearly see that the expanded concourse will be wider after the bend. And every drawing that they have put out shows the same thing. Not meant as an attack on u personally but I've seen many posts saying the same thing u are about the width of the extension. Im not sure what im looking at but from day one it has looked obvious that it will be wider, at least to me.

It is not obvious. What the video and drawings show is that the part with the new Skyclub will be wider but then the concourse narrows again past that part.

If the addition to the concourse itself was going to be wider, significantly wider, one would expect the Delta PR to tout that fact. So far, Delta has said anything to that effect.


User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3297 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9054 times:

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 1):
Since they are expanding the main check-in hall, will they decide to relocate the TSA checkpoint to that level so that all of the stores and restaurants will now be airside? Also still not clear on where the airlines currently in T4 will move to...

If you watch closely, it appears that the new TSA checkpoint is located in the expanded area behind the new SkyPriority Check In area. A few moments later, you see images of the mall area which still is exposed to the rafters. That was a big question for many when the original renditions were released.

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 2):
- The entire project appears to be a "slap-dash, quickie fix" to the poor facilities DL currently operates at JFK. Would a new "mega-terminal" located where T3 and T2 are currently located have been a better option?

It is costing $1.2 BILLION. How much would you propose they spend, given that they are also taking possession of another concourse and a half at LGA? At the end of the day, Delta is going to be serving primarily NYC local O&D traffic from both airports. It is going to be #1 at LGA and JFK in terms of capacity. It's LGA facilities will be light years beyond the competition and JFK will be modern, attractive, relatively spacious and offer unmatched amenities in the NYC region. It doesn't have to be DXB or ICN to be a winner for Delta.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 5):
Slap-dash and outdated given the airport facilities that will come online in the US in the next year or so. I am specifically thinking of the new TBIT at LAX and Miami's North Terminal. Both of them were designed to have concourses that were two storeys tall and wide enough to provide moving walkways in the middle and holdrooms off to the side. Both of them were also designed to minimize the amount of walking a passenger has to do to get to a gate, with TBIT's linear concourse plan and Miami's skytrain. Add to that all of the interior features (from floors to IEM) that will be unique to those airport facilities and Delta's T4 won't look so new.

You are really going to compare this with the MESS that was and is MIA? How much did that cost? How much does it cost the carriers? If NYC O&D passengers want to minimized the walk to their gate, they are welcome to fly to MIA to connect to Europe.

I just don't understand where you all come from. The types of terminals you propose cost BILLIONS of dollars. Guess what, Delta only has about 200 pairs of slots at JFK. How in the world do you propose they make the economics work? I'm sorry, the longer walks just aren't that big of a deal. People do it at airports all over the place, all the time. It isn't ideal, but it is not worth destroying the economics of the project either.


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21634 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9046 times:

Quoting jrlander (Reply 8):
I believe that the new security checkpoint will make almost all of the existing restaurants and shops airside. From the video, it looks as though the security check will be on the same level as check-in, with shops and restaurants being one level below. The checkpoints at the concourses will be eliminated. This will make the entire terminal a better experience, in my opinion.

It looks like part of the lower restaurant/shop area will still be open to above, which is good, but I can't see where that would be if the security checkpoint were moved to the check-in level. It would suck to have the restaurants and shops entirely closed in - that would be a pretty depressing place to while away a connection.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7582 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9043 times:

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 2):
- Having domestic flights from T2, connected to T4 via a super-long movable walkway appears to be unwieldy and cumbersome, at best. What will DL do to integrate these two terminals?

I apologize for my ignorance, but what I gather from this is that T3 will be completely demolished, right? So what about T2? Notwithstanding the recent "upgrades", it is still subpar and very crowded. Will a new T2 be built in order to house DL's domestic departures and arrivals?

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 4):
I would not be surprised if after T4 is finished (and the slot swap is fully functioning at LGA with construction modifications), that DL comes back and builds a new domestic terminal. It would certainly make them the market leader in NY if it were sustainable at both locations

Do you mean DL would build a new domestic terminal at JFK or at LGA? I am not sure I understood your comment.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 4):
I think this is the most interesting question. I don't know if slowly they will try to make T4 at JFK like T4 at LHR where it is a mostly Skyteam centric terminal. However, I don't know where you would put the displaced carriers if you could get them to move.

Not gonna happen IMHO. AF is one of the owners of T1. Why would AF move into T4 when it already is one of the owners of another terminal? Plus, it'd be too complicated to bring MU, KE, AF, AZ, AM and SU to T4 and have all the non-SkyTeam users move to other terminals.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1512 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8994 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 4):
I would not be surprised if after T4 is finished (and the slot swap is fully functioning at LGA with construction modifications), that DL comes back and builds a new domestic terminal. It would certainly make them the market leader in NY if it were sustainable at both locations.

The way forward I find most likely is a new common use terminal built, the current Non-DL residents of T4 move, and DL becomes the sole tenant. Of course, I have nothing concrete to base that on; it just seems to serve everyone's interests best (including the Port's).

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 5):
And, while at JFK, Delta won't be competing directly with these facilities, it will be what passengers come to expect from an international airline at a top gateway city, even a US airline given that AA is the primary occupant of the Miami North Terminal and will be using TBIT West as an extension of its own terminal at LAX.

I think that's spinning it a little hard, honestly.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 9):
It is not obvious. What the video and drawings show is that the part with the new Skyclub will be wider but then the concourse narrows again past that part.

And regardless, it's a PR video. You really can't take anything it shoes as gospel truth.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 9):
If the addition to the concourse itself was going to be wider, significantly wider, one would expect the Delta PR to tout that fact. So far, Delta has said anything to that effect.

You're giving PR people more credit than they deserve.  
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12):
I apologize for my ignorance, but what I gather from this is that T3 will be completely demolished, right? So what about T2? Notwithstanding the recent "upgrades", it is still subpar and very crowded. Will a new T2 be built in order to house DL's domestic departures and arrivals?

Nope. Further refurbs probably.

The whole DL terminal plan reeks of being Phase I of something. I would not be surprised to see a Phase II once this gets closer to being completed.

Conjecture incoming: I could definitely see further additions to T4, some interim solution to moving DL out of T2 and a complete rebuild. My guess would be into something common use and a move of the current T4 residents, with DL taking T4 in its entirety.


User currently offlineBlueman87 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8956 times:

they are copying jetBlue by calling it T4 instead of Terminal 4 but like the video


B6 T5 JFK DL T2/3 JFK
User currently offlinepdpsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1116 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8952 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 10):
I just don't understand where you all come from. The types of terminals you propose cost BILLIONS of dollars.

Yes, and your point is?

Of course new facilities are expensive, they always have been. In addition, one has to take into account the dreadful NY planning and construction environment. Endless planning discussions with myriad constituencies, opaque bidding processes, union labor, cost overruns, etc. etc. etc.

Perhaps DL has truly evaluated its alternatives at JFK and has interacted seamlessly with the Port Authority [PANYNJ]. Perhaps this "slap-dash" approach is the best for them. Perhaps, perhaps...

While DL's financial resources are limited, financing for JFK projects is available at reasonable rates via the municipal bond market and one wonders whether DL is truly taking advantage of the unique position they have at JFK. Maybe DL evaluated and discarded the possibility of a "T5-type" facility a-la BA in LHR. If so, they may have missed out on creating a truly world-class facility capable of handling global O&D traffic for the most important commercial aviation market in the entire Western Hemisphere.


User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8924 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 13):
Conjecture incoming: I could definitely see further additions to T4, some interim solution to moving DL out of T2 and a complete rebuild. My guess would be into something common use and a move of the current T4 residents, with DL taking T4 in its entirety.

T4 used to be the best termninal at JFK when it opened around 10 years ago. In the meanwhile it is the worst as pretty much ever airline that started to serve JFK over the past years was moved to T4. As a result, you have very long lines at imigration and in general the Terminal feels very congested. If all of Delta is planing to move into T4 the imigration counters will need to be doubled. Is the plan really to keep all current airlines at T4 or move them slowly out?

What will happen with T2?

As I understand T3 will be completely demolished and the space will be used for remote aircraft parking?


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1512 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8917 times:

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 15):
Yes, and your point is?

His point is that billions are a lot of money, and that someone has to pay them. In this case, Delta. Delta would need to defray that expense by passing it on to passangers. In an airport like ATL that might make sense. In an airport like JFK, where there is a hard, upper limit to the amount of flights Delta can offer, it probably doesn't make sense.

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 15):
While DL's financial resources are limited, financing for JFK projects is available at reasonable rates via the municipal bond market and one wonders whether DL is truly taking advantage of the unique position they have at JFK.

The Port will not finance anything that isn't common use. Also, Delta is in the process of actively removing debt from their balance sheet; not acquiring it.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8882 times:

Quoting Blueman87 (Reply 14):
they are copying jetBlue by calling it T4 instead of Terminal 4 but like the video

Is jetblue truly the first airline to abbreviate Terminal to T??



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineFRAIAD From Germany, joined Feb 2011, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8835 times:

As much as I agree that DL really needed to do something with their JFK facilities because of my own experience with T3 (something was constantly dropping from the ceiling in the baggage claim area), I think it's terrible that the whole T3 will be demolished including the legendary Pan Am Worldport from the 1960s. Noone even thought about getting rid of the Saarinen/TWA terminal, so why do it here with a building that represents in the same way the early years of the jet age.

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12561 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8793 times:

Quoting FRAIAD (Reply 19):
Noone even thought about getting rid of the Saarinen/TWA terminal,

Oh yes they did, but it was a step too far for the preservationists.

I'm not sure why T3 isn't drawing the same treatment, but part of it must be that preserving the TWA terminal really hasn't worked out well for anybody.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1512 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8774 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 20):
I'm not sure why T3 isn't drawing the same treatment, but part of it must be that preserving the TWA terminal really hasn't worked out well for anybody.

It is also because Pan Am destroed it in the 70s by adding onto it, whereas the Saarinen terminal was remarkably well preserved. Also, the Saarinen design is architecturally significant; the Worldport is only historically so.

There was discussion recently about building a hotel tower in between it and the JetBlue terminal, and using T5 as the lobby. Probably about as good as they will do finding a use for it.


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4910 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8749 times:
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Quoting LXA340 (Reply 16):
As I understand T3 will be completely demolished and the space will be used for remote aircraft parking?

Correct. This will help immensely with improving taxi and pushback delays, etc., The current setup with crowded alleyways, particularly between T2 and T3, is a serious drain on punctuality...

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 16):
In the meanwhile it is the worst as pretty much ever airline that started to serve JFK over the past years was moved to T4. As a result, you have very long lines at imigration and in general the Terminal feels very congested

I wouldn't call it the worst...congestion is a problem at other terminals too - T7 (small and cramped), T1 (which has become quite ugly and crowded since a lot of airlines moved into it as well - Swiss moved into T1 and then decided that T4 was still better and so moved out!). And of course, T2/T3 are way too small for the crowds they currently handle....


User currently onlinedelta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8748 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 10):
I just don't understand where you all come from. The types of terminals you propose cost BILLIONS of dollars. Guess what, Delta only has about 200 pairs of slots at JFK. How in the world do you propose they make the economics work? I'm sorry, the longer walks just aren't that big of a deal. People do it at airports all over the place, all the time. It isn't ideal, but it is not worth destroying the economics of the project either.

Agree 100%. I don't think walking on a moving walkway is gonna kill anyone. I used to walk from Terminal E to T in ATL, just for some exercise, and even THAT wasn't too bad. I've walked from Terminal 3 to 4 at JFK to catch the bus. The worst part was the traffic. If there was an inside, moving walkway, this really shouldn't be a problem.



From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5674 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8703 times:

Got the email today and I've posted the video on my Agency's facebook page and website. Amazing for all of my DL Commercial clients, and I can't wait to see the new infrastructure.

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 2):
- Will DL have exclusive access to the expanded northern pier of T4 IAT? What will happen to the other T4 tenants using the current pre-expansion northern pier

Not sure if this is true, but wont this be a part of having all the SkyTeam airlines move into T4?? I heard that somewhere, dont know the possibility of doing so, as T1 , T2/3 and T4 are all relatively close.

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 2):
- The entire project appears to be a "slap-dash, quickie fix" to the poor facilities DL currently operates at JFK. Would a new "mega-terminal" located where T3 and T2 are currently located have been a better option?

A corporate outlay of $1.2 Billion is not even close to being a slap-dash quick-fix solution. DL and the PANYNJ had certain parameters to work with, and this is the best outcome within those parameters.

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 2):
- Will the new T4 allow DL to maximize its resources at its JFK hub?

I believe it will. JFK is more of an International Hub for DL than a domestic one, albeit DL having quite the domestic system out of JFK. All those A330's, 767's and 744's have to go somewhere, and this new layout works wonders in my opinion.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
Is jetblue truly the first airline to abbreviate Terminal to T??

When I was at TWA we always called T5, T5 or the Flight Center. On my own I always called Terminal 1 T1.



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
25 LDVAviation : First of all, we don't know yet if Delta will take possession of another concourse at LGA. What we do know is that Delta is actually not spending $1.
26 washingtonian : Isn't the Delta pier going to be the western pier (or southern pier perhaps?)...I don't think it is to the North? But your question is a good one. T4
27 MSPNWA : And it pretty much is, sadly. T2 will still exist. T2 and T4 will be separated by a considerable distance. And the T4 may not be able to handle the e
28 WesternA318 : This i didnt know. Thanks for clarifying
29 washingtonian : I still think that eventually Delta will take over all of T4. If/when both concourses are expanded, it will be quite a large terminal and could easil
30 STT757 : Doubtful, as mentioned before DL doesn't own T-4. Schiphol owns T4, they along with the Port Authority are making a new expansion to a concourse DL i
31 pdpsol : I have been traveling out of JFK for as long as I can remember and, frankly, this project does not appear to reflect the best planning, coordination
32 delimit : Delta's slots are capped. That wouldn't prevent them from growing capacity. Delta offers Schiphol a far better source of potential traffic growth than
33 jfklganyc : "they are copying jetBlue by calling it T4 instead of Terminal 4 but like the video" Funny...I thought the same thing! Good marketing though
34 STT757 : Yeah the RPA conference, that's where they introduced their plans for new runways at EWR and JFK. The problem with the comparison to foreign airports
35 commavia : There was another thread on this same general topic a few months back. While I commiserate with your frustration at the generally pathetic state of N
36 Post contains links TeamInTheSky : http://www.schiphol.nl/SchipholGroup...erminal4AtJohnF.KennedyAirport.htm Above is a link to some more good information about the expansion In regards
37 jetlanta : Please enlighten me on how "creating a truly world-class facility capable of handling global O&D traffic for the most important commercial aviati
38 goldenstate : How did you arrive at the conclusion that DL has no potential for additional international flights at JFK? That's a pretty concrete statement. I'm qu
39 phileet92 : IMO if we dont run out of fuel in 20 years, the only option for expansion in the NYC area is a project like HKG or KIX, going offshore and reclaiming
40 Post contains images goldenargosy : My suggestion to Delta is to tear down Terminal 2 & 3. Then make a deal with the Canadian government to buy the YMX terminal. Then go up and put t
41 MSPNWA : Helping build a new JFK terminal isn't going to make or break Delta Air Lines. JFK so happens to be a very important airport for Delta, so any invest
42 goldenstate : On what basis do you judge the current project as not being done right? I don't think empirical data would support your claim of apparently unlimited
43 jetlanta : A good experience compared to which competing airports? EWR? IAD? BOS? PHL? Those are the competition, not HKG, not ICN, not DXB, and not PEK. There
44 LDVAviation : The long-term lease agreement is a rental contract with Schiphol, not a debt or mortgage contract. Clearly, Delta did not even want to carry the debt
45 LDVAviation : You might want to read what I said about Delta's contract with Schiphol above. IMO, the only prudent thing about it is that Delta didn't spend more t
46 MSPNWA : Do I have to repeat things? I guess so. 1. T2 is long overdue for replacement, and this project will not do it. 2. It remains to be seen if T4 can ef
47 mayor : DL has always referred to this project as "Phase 1", which would seem to indicate to me that there is at least a "Phase 2". Apples and oranges.
48 jetlanta : Of course it stands out. It also stands to reason that Delta and PANYNJ spent the better part of a decade trying to make this thing economical. My po
49 Post contains images IndianicWorld : It looks good, very modern, but it looks extremely clinical in its appearance. Modern terminals all seem to have the same look and feel, which gets ab
50 Post contains links jetlanta : Well, I answered my own question I think. The TBIT renovation that began in 2007 was budgeted at $737M. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...sstory
51 IcelandairMSP : It's a fine plan, in reality. Asia. Look to Asia. Even then most airport terminals are pretty straightforward and conservative. The US is not a place
52 slcdeltarumd11 : Deltas terminals at JFK are an actual dump. I dont think this is a crazy amount of money if it solves alot of their problems. I often just find not en
53 panamair : They will feel exactly the same as AA pax who stand at FIS or TSA lines in T8 with AB, AY, 9W, QR pax next to them, or like CO pax who arrive at EWR
54 beeweel15 : The Delta management folks who made the decisions for T4 should be fired. DL could have done a much better job. The are making JFK worse for themselve
55 STT757 : 1.) Slot restraints 2.) slots limited at times the are viable to support Trans-Atlantic flights. Not quite, there's now where to put it unless your g
56 ATLgaUSA : This demonstrates your inability to reconcile "wants" with the harsh realities of running a business.
57 richierich : I think your expectations are a little too high for the times we live in. It is completely unreasonable to expect a Dubai-like terminal lined with go
58 LDVAviation : I am not saying that at all. The PA insulated itself from default on the bonds by underwriting them for Schiphol, not Delta. Given Delta's recent ban
59 washingtonian : It's still a joke to think that all of the T4 airlines can fit into the non-Delta concourse. How is this physically possible? Could somebody explain t
60 TeamInTheSky : Well that is certainly an opinion you can have. As posters have said, this is only the first part of the renovation. With released pictures of Phase
61 LDVAviation : Actually, TBIT is coming along quite nicely. From the public art to the IEM to the connectors to T4/T3, everything is receiving the care and attentio
62 delimit : You're making a value judgement, so disagreeing with you is pointless, but I do find it fairly laughable you use LAX T4 as an example. It is entirely
63 EddieDude : Again an apology for my ignorance, but I would like a summary/confirmation of what will happen: So, an extension to T4 is being built in order to hou
64 GothamSpotter : I imagine the T2-T4 walkway will be about the same length as the JetBlue-AirTrain walkway.
65 nycdave : Someday, far in the future when the money is there, the PANYNJ is expected to extend AirTrain up the Van Wyck to the Grand Central and on to LGA. Of
66 delimit : Hi Eddie, If I recall, an image of a fully built out T4, including RJ gates appeared on Delta's site and then shortly disappeared. Everything else is
67 LDVAviation : Fairly laughable? I was referring to the interior of T4 which is hardly generic. The two-storey, departure lobby is quite a nice space. Google it. It
68 Post contains links TeamInTheSky : lol, debatable, world cities have metro's/subway's/tube's and other public transportation the common man can take, not a slight against you, but the
69 jetlanta : First of all, you have't seen the inside of ATL's new terminal yet (nor TBIT West), so how about holding off on the judgements. And when was the last
70 panamair : And where exactly would you propose that Delta operate from when they knock down part of T3 for this redevelopment effort? One of the operational iss
71 delimit : You're joking, right? I flew out of the Terminal for a decade. I know it intimately. Are you really talking about the escalator vestibule, while igno
72 Post contains images EddieDude : Thank you guys. I guess they could. But what would be the incentive for them to move or, in other words, who would pay for the moving expenses? PANYN
73 LDVAviation : No, it really has three which are trendsetters in their own way --- New York, Los Angeles, and Miami. I don't want to debate this here. However, you
74 washingtonian : Interesting analysis....T4 is very much a pre-9/11 terminal too. The dam baggage scanners were put up everywhere on the check-in level after 9/11. Th
75 TeamInTheSky : I know you meant terminal F, and for ATL, it is a game changer. However, I will definitely want to go through the terminal at LAX when finished
76 Post contains links and images delta2ual : Really? I think Terminal D in ATL was completed in 1980. It's not much to look at. Neither are the AA facilities at ORD. And, for the record, there a
77 LDVAviation : I stand corrected. You are right. I was thinking Etihad. In any case, the important thing here is that for the sake of its brand AA can unilaterally
78 TeamInTheSky : Back to topic, For those of you that have knowledge of the NY market place: If, hypothetically, phase II is completed and T4 becomes only a DL Termina
79 STT757 : They will have caught up to UA in terms of passengers.
80 washingtonian : Still waiting for the explanation for what the non-Delta T4 carriers are going to do....
81 TeamInTheSky : I think I explained in my postulation, there could eventually be a new terminal built (Demolishing T3 and T2) where the other carriers are moved to i
82 washingtonian : No, I mean what are the other airlines going to do when Delta takes over the main, larger T4 concourse and all the non-Delta airlines are stuck in th
83 delimit : Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I don't mean to imply it's ugly (although I find the angularity of the vestibule a bit dated), I
84 STT757 : Obviously theiy're not going anywhere anytime soon, they can't move to a new Terminal because there's no funding in place nor is there room. You cann
85 delimit : Obviously there's no funding. Any discussion of a Phase II is purely conjecture. There's no reason not to discuss it; just need to remember that it i
86 mayor : I mentioned this before, but, since DL keeps referring to this as Phase I, logic would tell you that there is apparently a Phase II that just has not
87 747fan : I still think T4 is a nice enough & pleasant facility, although it needs work in the actual concourses. The gate holding lounges are surprisingly
88 washingtonian : Yup, and that's the sticking point. But I'd go even one step further: It's still not clear to me how the non-Delta airlines are going to fit into T4
89 planetime : What is the total number of gates going to be for delta on the t-4? I guess they are going to keep the whole concourse B to themselves. How about conc
90 Post contains images 747fan : DL will have all of concourse B, and perhaps KLM will use B since they're a partner. I believe it'll be 9 additional gates. I'm not sure about Concou
91 klkla : What will be interesting to see is what happens long term after phase 1 of the T4 expansioon is done. Delta accidentally released a drawing that inclu
92 Post contains links IcelandairMSP : Phase I http://archpaper.com/uploads/JFK_Terminal4_Tomorrow.jpg Phase II http://filecache.drivetheweb.com/mr4..._delta/948/JFK-exterior-future.jpg Def
93 washingtonian : Nobody ever explains this. It seems impossible to fit T4's ~25 airlines, many with multiple daily flights in the afternoon, into Concourse A. Hmm, go
94 beeweel15 : First let me correct you the Emirates lounge is located airside while el al is. LX, VS and two independent lounges are on the mezzanine level. From t
95 TeamInTheSky : These are the kind of inflamatory and unneccesary comments on this forum that just show an ignorant bias. T4 will be much much nicer especially if th
96 washingtonian : There is no way a T8 expansion will be done by the time Delta moves into T4. For all intents and purposes, two years from now in 2013, the terminal s
97 747fan : Sorry, meant to say "with the exception of Emirates' & El Al's lounges." Unless those carriers were to switch terminals (quite unlikely as of now
98 washingtonian : I would assume that as well, I just haven't seen anything written about it or press releases, etc.
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