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Indian Superjumbo Ban Hurts Emirates’ A380 Growth  
User currently offlineraptor1090 From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2011, 82 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 22671 times:

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/india...s-emirates-a380-growth-411384.html

Interesting article I read today. Thought I'd share it here.
PS: Some of the comments on that website are sure to start a flame war from a.netters 'bout the same old story of Emirates and its influence/impact.

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4360 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 22533 times:

Either you blow hot air or you buy 747-8I, so which airline has the better management?

User currently offlineDH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 623 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 22427 times:
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Well perhaps the 747-8I should also fall foul, as it's bigger than Air India's 747's ?
I guess it would depend on the precise wording of the relevant law:- 'generic 747' or specifically the 747's as operated by AI ?



...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1639 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 22142 times:

Sad to see that the Indian government is obstructing foreign airlines from flying the A380 to India.
Would be interesting to see if EK would go and splurge on a sub-fleet of 4-5 747s. Once upon a time, such practices were common to circumvent range/bilateral restrictions. If EK did this, there's always the chance that by the time the 747s get delivered, then Indian government will change its mind and allow A380s.
In the short-term, perhaps EK can refit some A380s into hybrid cargo/passenger planes, removing seats that would be offensive to the Indian government?


User currently offlinesandyb123 From UK - Scotland, joined Oct 2007, 1039 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 21974 times:
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Reading the article this seems to be a deliberately anti-competitive move to protect Air India, which is a wholly owned company of the Indian government.

However, commercially I don't see how this will be a major problem for any forgein carrier. AI operates Mostly 747 and 777 on their long hauls, which is directly in line with most long haul operators to the country (BA, LH, VS and EK spring to mind).

So although it's anti-competitive, it's not giving AI a massive advantage in the Market.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 3):
Would be interesting to see if EK would go and splurge on a sub-fleet of 4-5 747s
Quoting directorguy (Reply 3):
In the short-term, perhaps EK can refit some A380s into hybrid cargo/passenger planes, removing seats that would be offensive to the Indian government?

Will never happen. EK is strong on fleet commonality. they'll just fly their high density 773ER until the A380 is allowed (which might be about the same time AI takes delivery of the A380). Frequency is another option and will help EK offer more east-west connections.

Sandyb123



DC3, 727, 737, 744, 753, 777, A32X, A345, A388, ERJ145, E190, BaE146, D328, ATR72, Q400
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10360 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 21973 times:

Is this just to protect AIs inferior fleet? How poor from a country experiencing an unprecedented economical boom!
Anway, I´ll be flying to India on a 744 next weekend again.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 21911 times:

Quoting na (Reply 5):

Anway, I´ll be flying to India on a 744 next weekend again.

which Sector?.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently onlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2919 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21556 times:

Quoting na (Reply 5):
Is this just to protect AIs inferior fleet?

Could you explain this?

Quoting directorguy (Reply 3):
Sad to see that the Indian government is obstructing foreign airlines from flying the A380 to India.

It is indeed, I personally feel airlines should be allowed to get the A380 to India. Having said that there is no point in viewing EK has a victim. EK has 185 weekly flights to India with 53,000 seats per week each direction on offer, which is way above than any other foreign carrier serving India. Add to that India is the single largest market for Emirates as well unlike certain countries restricting it to 3 per week.

Quoting DH106 (Reply 2):
Well perhaps the 747-8I should also fall foul, as it's bigger than Air India's 747's ?
I guess it would depend on the precise wording of the relevant law:- 'generic 747' or specifically the 747's as operated by AI ?

It has almost nothing to do with protecting the interests of Air India as the real people who are scared about the A380 influx to India are 9W and to an extent IT.

Personally I do not support the decision to block the A380 to India.



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlinehohd From United States of America, joined May 2008, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21459 times:

LH is also pushing to get its 380 to DEL. If they allow LH (based on the assumption that AI gets into Star Alliance - somehow these two are linked), then EK might start demanding its 380's to be allowed to India.

And India is not alone, Pakistan has the same problem with 380 service to KHI.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4360 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21388 times:

Looks like neither LH or EK are willing to pay the bribes needed to change the text in the bilaterals...

User currently offlinehohd From United States of America, joined May 2008, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21331 times:

If bribes are the only restriction to starting service, LH and EK would have done that long time ago.

User currently offlinetonyban From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 21143 times:

Quoting hohd (Reply 10):
If bribes are the only restriction to starting service, LH and EK would have done that long time ago

My thoughts exactly. This is the only way the Indian govenment can work. Someone at EK hasn't done their homework.
Sadly, this is a way of life in Indian politics !!


User currently offlineflyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 21081 times:

This is a clear sign from the Indian government that foreign airlines are only welcome when certain conditions are fulfilled (i.e. they must fly to India with aircraft possibly not economic for those routes, or with a loss in benefits). What a shame. Very weak if you ask me, that these kinds of things still happen in this day and age   


Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlinesubkk From India, joined Dec 2005, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20961 times:

THings may be more complex than what this article explains

India is using it growing economic clout to protect its homegrown airlines, apart from this in the past this was also used as a political negotitation between India and Emirates, India gave rights and obtained cooperation in anti terror activities and more jobs for folks from India.

While India is highly corrupt, I dont think that has any influence in this

Subramanian


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20375 times:

Quoting hohd (Reply 10):
If bribes are the only restriction to starting service, LH and EK would have done that long time ago.

Not Lufthansa. No way ever that would be possible in Germany. Never. Ever. In a million years.

LH was denied overflight rights over Russia because they shifted their en-route cargo stops from Moscow to Almaty. Nothing a few first class tickets issued to the right recipients couldn't have fixed. LH didn't do that though. They started avoiding Russian air space and eventually, I believe, caved in and went back to Moscow. (don't remember the exact details.. but that doesn't mean the underlying point is invalid).

You have no idea how much it would hurt the reputation of LH if they were accused of engaging in such shady under-the-table practices.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineflyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20275 times:

Quoting something (Reply 15):
You have no idea how much it would hurt the reputation of LH if they were accused of engaging in such shady under-the-table practices.

I must agree. I think the only "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" action going on here (if there is even any) is not of a financial nature!



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8739 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20097 times:

Quoting DH106 (Reply 2):
Well perhaps the 747-8I should also fall foul, as it's bigger than Air India's 747's ?
I guess it would depend on the precise wording of the relevant law:- 'generic 747

That
*s easy ands has been arranged many times over the decades the 747 exist. Just sell as many seats as the old type had and leave the rest empty. Fill the weight with freight, which is always available min abundance at Indian airports and bingo. all set.

Quoting hohd (Reply 10):
If bribes are the only restriction to starting service, LH and EK would have done that long time ago.

Ever heard of corporate governance? Interesting to read such a statement from an American. Did you know that, if LH would pay bribes in India, they could be prosecuted in the USA although the USA was not involved at all? The global judge has his wooden hammer verywhere although it's none of their friggin business. But don't worry, we have our own standards in Germany and no company, especially globally operating top 30 DAX listed companis will strictly comply.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlinebthebest From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 19753 times:

Would the restrictions allow airlines to fly the A380 with loads equal to that of the 747?

I can imagine this would work for EK who don't have the 747 but could still make an A380 work with lower loads - still better than 77W.


User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 19027 times:

Quoting tonyban (Reply 12):
Sadly, this is a way of life in Indian politics !!

Is it any different in any other country?

I know that in Australia it is illegal to bribe an individual MP but why does any company make donations to political parties? Because wholesale is cheaper than retail, maybe? No business gives money to political parties out of a passionate desire to promote democracy. They do so in expectation of something in return. It is a business decision. But in Australia buying parties wholesale also has the advantage of being tax deductible. No bribery: we are too civilised for that. Our tax laws prove it.  
Quoting bthebest (Reply 18):
Would the restrictions allow airlines to fly the A380 with loads equal to that of the 747?

I admit that I don't have a full copy of the ASA and its attachments but thought that the UAE - India agreement covered not only aircraft types but maximum seat numbers. Perhaps a more knowledgeable members could clarify or, better yet, provide a link to the current agreement. Pretty please.


User currently onlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2919 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 18754 times:

Quoting Quokka (Reply 19):
attachments but thought that the UAE - India agreement covered not only aircraft types but maximum seat numbers.

India - Dubai (not UAE) bilaterals allows 54,000 seats each week each directions for both countries. Emirates uses around 53,000 with 185 weekly flights and the remaining by Flydubai. Most Air Service Agreements states "Any aircraft not greater than the B747". So apparently any version of B747 is acceptable but not the A380.



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12414 posts, RR: 100
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 18718 times:
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This really struck me with this quote from the OP link:
"The A380 offers a “significant cost advantage to airlines, allowing them to price tickets cheaper,” said Amber Dubey, a Gurgaon, India-based director at auditing and consulting company KPMG. “That’s the reason some Indian carriers are concerned.”"

So they don't won't lower cost fares to India. That sounds like a great way to attract tourists and business to India (by raising the costs of the trip).

Quoting flyAUA (Reply 16):
I scratch yours" action going on here (if there is even any) is not of a financial nature!

LH's back hasn't been getting scratched, so I think this has spread to the AI *A application.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 18000 times:

Quoting ojas (Reply 20):
India - Dubai (not UAE) bilaterals allows 54,000 seats each week each directions for both countries.

Thanks Ojas. I was unaware that India distinguishes between the various Emirates rather than applying a limit overall as some other countries do. That you for making that clear to me.

Do you have details for how many seats Abu Dhabi and the other emirates are allowed or how they might be broken up by designated carriers?


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1832 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17697 times:

Quoting subkk (Reply 14):
India gave rights and obtained cooperation in anti terror activities and more jobs for folks from India.

Given the trends from the Middle East and the potential impact to India (especially on the security front), I don't blame India for doing this. The rest of the Arabs may have oil that India wants, but Dubai needs India more than India needs Dubai.


User currently offlineraptor1090 From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2011, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17569 times:

Quoting Quokka (Reply 22):
Thanks Ojas. I was unaware that India distinguishes between the various Emirates rather than applying a limit overall as some other countries do.

I would think it's not India distinguishing them, but rather the Emirates themselves.


User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17245 times:

Quoting raptor1090 (Reply 24):
but rather the Emirates themselves.

Unless the Government of the UAE has absolved responsibility for such matters a company is not able to determine bilateral agreements between states and there would be some limitation to EK's desires. Would the Emir of Abu Dhabi actually permit the ruler of Dubai to muscle him out of the way, given the seniority within the federation, and exclude the interests of the other emirates in negotiations with India?

While EK may say "we want" so many seats, who would the Government of India listen to? Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan, Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum, orTim Clark? My bet is on the former unless Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum has some hold over the President of the UAE.

[Edited 2011-07-20 11:18:55]

25 Babybus : Historically India and the Gulf countries always have a ding dong about stuff like this. I can also imagine India's airlines being a bit scared of hav
26 Quokka : EK partner with both Jet and Kingfisher at present. They have interline and code-sharing arrangements and allow passengers to accumulate airmiles/ po
27 Cricket : Look at EK in DEL - 4 flights daily and BOM - 5 flights daily some with 350+ seats on a 77W. Pretty much 75% of EK traffic is through traffic. But it
28 turjo101 : The world just continues to become more and more interesting for EK. The Emirates A388s currently come with 399 and 427 economy seat configurations on
29 AirIndia : They will eventually see the 380, sooner than later. EK does not plan to fly down the 380s any time soon. They will wait for - Indian govt to allow m
30 abrelosojos : = And this is different from Europe/Germany's obstruction of EK's request for more access how? I cannot think of any reason why EK should get more fr
31 Cricket : Hear, hear!
32 flyAUA : This is different because they are banning an aircraft type for foreign airlines, not certain destinations and/or passenger loads. If you read the en
33 Burkhard : You really wanted to say this ?
34 hal9213 : Sorry, but I dont believe all this debate about EK A380 to India. Many of the routes on their timetable are still operated with A332 or 772. While I k
35 ytz : I would suggest that the Indians have to be strategic about this. Successful international airlines are essential to helping India develop. If the gov
36 Post contains images abrelosojos : = No different. India has a different way of safeguarding her national interest. Europe/Germany has another approach. Unless you are suggesting the E
37 Post contains images flyAUA : It is very different! If what you are saying is true, then India would not care if EK is flying 3 flights with 500 pax or 5 flights with 300 pax, but
38 abrelosojos : = We will have to agree to disagree. I don't see any difference between the two measures and find both actions are being taken to preserve a "believe
39 Post contains links and images Semaex : So let me get this straight: EK and LH would like to fly their A380s to India, however the Indian government is refusing any A380 service to their cou
40 Bennett123 : Is Air India in a position to take up the slack, or are other carriers likely to step forward, or are they also being capped.
41 gr8circle : Wow! You actually can say such things.....are you living in a cave or something.....? Ever heard of the term BRIC countries? Nations such as yours ar
42 Post contains images HAWK21M : You must be Joking.......... Progress by the BRIC Countries have been fantastic......But guess population growth does slow things down.
43 Dizzy777 : EK trying to take over the world, 1 country at a time.. They don't need the A380's size going to india, but if they use it they can sell seats at a lo
44 Post contains images flyAUA : Correct! Some people however think you need an A380 to take over the world. In fact what you need is a functioning business, and enough liquidity. Al
45 HAWK21M : Instead whats needed is a well managed Airline.......with more private Indian operators moving International.....The trend will see a difference soon
46 ytz : Isn't EK restricted by seats, not slots in DXB? In any event, I'm thinking that the Indians are slowly going the way of Canada, and pursuing bilats b
47 Dizzy777 : There are sufficient seats on the int. bilateral for EK to india, they are restricted to 747 or smaller, they want to use the A380... Meaning more se
48 PanHAM : in the heat of the argument... No, if taken out of context, but the paragraph as a whole makes sense and shows what I mean. To make it clear, no glob
49 hal9213 : How does that make sense? In almost all cases, if demand goes up, and an airline has the freedom, wouldnt they always choose to increase frequency ra
50 Post contains images abrelosojos : = We will have to disagree. In my view, the Germans are being equally protective. Unlimited access in terms of size and frequency means nothing hen y
51 PanHAM : besides that I made a typing error - it should read 49 instead of 40 - you mis-understood the choice that was on the table. Either 49 flights per wee
52 IndianicWorld : I just love the reasonings given by countries to block competition. It's always worded in a way that tries to maintain diplomacy but the true reason i
53 Revelation : Many feel IT won't be able to afford to take the A380 in 2016. One can put these two statements together and say LHCargo is disappointed that the DE
54 PanHAM : Not exactly with India but with traffic rights in general - the German government would not pay off the Russians either and airlines are not part of t
55 kiramakora : I am always amazed at the morally superior posture of some members in Europe, and frankly, I am tired of it. In the world we live in, we in the BRICS
56 HAWK21M : Shouldn't every nation have the right to ensure their profits through their businesses......
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