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EU Blacklist Protecting Air France  
User currently offlineaviationweek From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2010, 55 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 15230 times:

The head of African Airlines Association says that the EU's aviation blacklist is being used as a commercial tool to protect European airlines, particularly by France. He says the is to "destroy competition". He goes on to make some interesting arguments about the ulterior motives of European carriers. Read the full story here. An interesting viewpoint. What do you think about this?

74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2075 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 15015 times:

Bullshit! The blacklist is issued by the European Commission.

Airlines on this list attracted attention because their aircraft failed on inspections by the civil aviation authorities of one or several member states of the European Community, which are 27 countries and not France alone.



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14931 times:

Absolutely unbelievable. It is about providing safe air travel to and from an area which has an appalling safety record.


Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7081 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14914 times:

And how many days after taag were blacklisted did they have an accident?


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineFlanor From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14795 times:

There were five fatal accidents with black listed airlines THIS YEAR ALONE.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?Year=2011

Meanwhile plenty of African carriers like ET and KQ are doing great.


User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2755 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14672 times:
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He does have a fair argument IMO. But, there are so many unsafe airlines in Africa so it's tough to completely accept his argument. To me it does look a little funny that AF flies to all these countries and there are very few home carriers that fly the routes. Maybe AF's cost structure is better for that, i don't know, but he does make you think a little bit.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1669 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14520 times:

To be honest with you there are not many African Airlines that look after their aircraft properly, hence why there are so many on the blacklist, especially from Congo.

Lack of funds and corruption pay heavily on cashflows to airlines in many countries in Africa and other continents.

However, Air France's safety record of recent times is one of the worst in Western Europe with three hull losses between 2000 and 2009...

Admittedly the Concorde and Toronto crashes were not technical and we haven't got the results of the A330 crash yet...

I wonder if they have had extra inspections.



Next Flights: LGW-SVG (738-DY), SVG-LHR (319-BA), LHR-HKG (388-BA), HKG-SYD (333-CX), SYD-HKG (333-CX), HKG-LHR (388-BA)
User currently offlineBralo20 From Belgium, joined May 2008, 623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14436 times:

Well Africa does the same... Even though Hewa Bora is considered unsafe the Congolese government still won't allow Korongo Airlines to import their planes into the country to start ops... Just because the airline is considered to be a safe airline (subsidiary of Brussels Airlines) following every guideline and rule which can be a thread to other Congolese airlines like Hewa Bora...

User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6299 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 14251 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 5):
To me it does look a little funny that AF flies to all these countries and there are very few home carriers that fly the routes.

It's not really funny, it's history...France has a ton of colonial ties in Africa, and there are a ton of Francophone counties in Africa. It's not AF's fault that many of these countries have incompetent governments with incompetent (or no) airlines.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 6):
Admittedly the Concorde and Toronto crashes were not technical

No, but I think Toronto was pilot error which is often what crashes in Africa are too


User currently onlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1302 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 14181 times:

Typical African excuse: Blame the evil former colonial powers for own systematic failures. Haven't held water for years, doesn't now either.


From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinestrandedinbgm From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 349 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 14019 times:

On a related note. Here's a bit of irony.




It's 737s, 747s and 380s. Not 737's, 747's and 380's. Learn to use the apostrophe for crying out loud.
User currently offlineflyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13977 times:

Those airlines are on the list for a reason, and it is not to curb competition or protect certain airlines.

Getting onto this blacklist would involve a lot of neglect, yet certain airlines have made a marvellous job at that and hence it is good that we protect passengers when such shortcomings are discovered!

Anyone assuming anything else feels (as we would say in Austria) "stepped on their willies by the EU"  

Everyone is given the chance to run a safe, profitable, and efficient airline. If certain persons are incapable of doing this, it is perhaps best they keep quiet, instead of complaining!

Quoting strandedinbgm (Reply 10):
On a related note. Here's a bit of irony.

 rotfl 

[Edited 2011-07-20 08:37:28]


Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7458 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13821 times:

Which African airlines does he have in mind?.

User currently offlinerising From United States of America, joined May 2010, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13729 times:

Afraa's argument has merit. And to be clear, the article is talking about problems with Afraa members. Not all airlines on the blacklist. The main points are:

1) One country can push for a ban, but many more are needed for a release from the ban.
2) The EU bans countries but then allows their own airlines to fly there. If the COUNTRY is not safe one airline, how the country be safe for another.

I don't think Afraa is trying to argue that, say, Hewa Bora is a safe airline. Nobody suggested it, and it's not what this is about. They are not even a member. It's about a government, in this case Europe, using "safety" to block other carriers from competing on routes. Afraa requires IATA certification and inspections for its members. Several carriers in Afraa are members of global alliances like Star and Skyteam, which require further safety certification and audits. So to block LAM right as it is about to start EU service is a little suspicious.

To quote Ian Fleming "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action."

[Edited 2011-07-20 09:05:35]


If it doesn't make sense, it's because it's not true.
User currently onlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1302 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13579 times:

Quoting rising (Reply 13):
1) One country can push for a ban, but many more are needed for a release from the ban.
2) The EU bans countries but then allows their own airlines to fly there. If the COUNTRY is not safe one airline, how the country be safe for another.

Your second point illustrates the complete lack of understanding why the ban is in place. When all airlines from a country is banned, it's because they lack proper oversight from their regulatory body. It does not in any way have anything to do with foreign carriers operating in that country; foreign airlines are regulated by their own country of registry. Neither has it got anything to do with the safety of the airports, as this is regulated separately.

Airports may indeed be classified as unsafe, but that is very rare indeed. Should such bans suddenly find favour, you may rest assured that various African airports will figure prominently on those black lists, and in that case all flights to said airport would be deemed unsafe, local and foreign. But, as said, that's not what this is about.

On the first point, you are only partly correct. A single country can indeed push for a ban, but only because there's such things called the EU and EASA, and that means countries follow a standardised procedure. It matters therefore not if an airline fails a check in London or Larnaca, the audits carried out are mutually recognised by the EU/EASA member states. This is of course very bad luck for the chancers, but very good news for the traveling public.

The article has no merit whatsoever. Certain African countries seriously need to get their act together, but sadly chances of that happening inside a generation are remote indeed. They're fracked to the n'th degree, and in times of domestic problems of own making, it's quite natural for some politicians to attempt redirecting the blame towards foreign elements.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinepnd100 From Canada, joined Mar 2009, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 13456 times:


"It's very easy to criticize" Marge Simpson
"Fun too!" adds Homer .


The West is a big & juicy target for historically disadvantaged countries because of colonialism. There are many people in many countries throughout the world who feel that all of the world's problems have been caused by a group of unfairly advantaged Europeans who sat in the Berlin Conference of 1885. This is a view that is rehashed again & again & even today the Guardian reports aid agencies are blaming the west for "wilful neglect" on the part of the African famine.

This popular view may have had merit decades ago as these nations began to emerge from colonialism. There is no doubt that colonialism & the ensuing economics it created may have held some nations back at the beginning. No one should doubt that. But what about since then? The bulk of African countries were independent by 1970. It has been over 40 years since. Examples exist worldwide of countries who focused on improving themselves instead of blaming others. This applies to airlines in Africa as well. There are examples like ET (charter member of AFRAA), KQ (member since 1977) & even SA (1994) that have done very well. There has been war & famine in Ethiopia. There has been instability in Kenya. We all know South Africa's past. These airlines overcame their challenges.

The African continent is rife with corruption, bad governance & poor infrastructure. It is naive & frankly irresponsible to sight the conspiracy theory of protectionism in this case. The European carriers can compete just fine with anyone in the world. They do not need the protection of their governments from anyone. Indian carriers for example are not banned from the EU but I guarantee that the majority of people would rather fly AF, BA, LH than AI if given the choice. The modern African traveler wants choice but also good service. Those who can fly European carriers do so & pay a premium for it. This would be the case whether or not the country is on a blacklist. In my humble opinion as a student of history & economics I do not share the view presented by AFRAA as it is not based on facts today


User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 13325 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 1):
Airlines on this list attracted attention because their aircraft failed on inspections by the civil aviation authorities of one or several member states of the European Community, which are 27 countries and not France alone.

Not entirely true. If an airline flies to France alone and the French say it was operating in an unsafe matter, the airline can be put on the blacklist. So yes, France alone can bring an airline to the blacklist, just as you say yourself btw:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 1):
Airlines on this list attracted attention because their aircraft failed on inspections by the civil aviation authorities of one..

so can every other country.

If Dutch inspectors find Surinam to be unsafe several times, who else than the Dutch can put them on the blacklist? They fly to AMS only..

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 6):
Admittedly the Concorde and Toronto crashes were not technical and we haven't got the results of the A330 crash yet...

Doesn't need to be. Training is just as much as a problem as technical issues. Even if they do arise, pilots should be able to deal with them.
Plenty of accidents in Africa happen following technical malfunctions, which however shouldn't have been a problem for well-trained (and skilled) pilots.



Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 13135 times:

Just a retorical question, why isnt AF on the list then after 2 technical reason crashes with fatalities, and one pilot error?
And QF isnt the safest airline either looking at all maintenace related incidents lately.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 13027 times:
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That France is at the origin of several bans may have to do with a lot more African carriers operating to France than most other EU member countries, perhaps, and not just attempting to protect AF's market share...

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14):
When all airlines from a country is banned, it's because they lack proper oversight from their regulatory body

Further to that point, there have been instances in the past (and may be still, I haven't read the list in a while) where all airlines from a specific country were banned due to unsatisfactory regulatory oversight, with exceptions carved out for specific aircraft flying for an airline from a banned country, but registered to and operated by another carrier from a country that isn't banned. This is how, for a time, Hewa Bora Airways continued flying to Brussels, I believe.

Quoting rising (Reply 13):
One country can push for a ban

Technically, they don't "push" for a ban, they just ban. The list is an aggregate of each individual EU member's black list. It does give a tremendous amount of power to each EU member regulatory agency, but they are all supposed to work off the same standards. In theory, if the French DGAC bans a carrier after repeated failed inspections of its aircraft in France, any other EU member would reach the same conclusion after conducting the same inspections on the same aircraft.

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 15):
But what about since then? The bulk of African countries were independent by 1970.
Quoting pnd100 (Reply 15):
The African continent is rife with corruption, bad governance & poor infrastructure.

I think you need to separate the two. European countries could have put a lot more efforts into setting up a civil society and representative, accountable governments when they left their former colonies. That it is taking many of them decades to shake off their post-independence dictatorship isn't all that exceptional, there are many countries around the world that have lived under the thumb of an autocratic regime for far longer than that.

As far as corruption and poor infrastructure, that is a dictator's choice indeed. China is the perfect example that even dictatorial countries can have good infrastructure and attempt to root out corruption. The difference between China and Africa is that there is very little opportunity for Africans to organize and present a serious threat to their dictator, other than dictator-in-waiting rebels, unlike China. So the lack of infrastructure and effective regulatory agency is absolutely Africa's fault and no one else's. Its dictators would rather pocket more money for more shopping trips for more mistresses in Paris than spend some of the development aid they receive on better airports and honest enforcement. That one is definitively on them.

Blaming the outside world for your own failures and using that as a boogeyman to distract from internal problems isn't the exclusive purview of Africa either, be it with Middle Eastern countries and Israel, the EU and financial ratings agencies based in the US, or the US with cheap imports from China, but generally it works.

In other words, Africa blaming the "West" for its problems isn't entirely justified, but it isn't unique in doing so either...



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineTrijetsonly From Germany, joined Jul 2009, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12849 times:

I wonder if Air France will be the first European Airline, being on that Black List of banned Airlines....

User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1830 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12850 times:

AFRAA should also accuse AF of Garuda ban in Europe. Oh but...AF does not fly to Indonesia. So it's surely a KL plot to protect its routes to Indonesia.      

User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12646 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 17):
Just a retorical question, why isnt AF on the list then after 2 technical reason crashes with fatalities, and one pilot error?

I think it's because they actually do have maintenance bases that do actually have the money to do maintenance on their aircraft. This is the direct opposite of the African airlines that are complaining.

It might also be that statistically if you look at all the AF flights in a year compared to the number of hull losses or incidents per year, they are really actually very safe.....unlike their African counterparts.

As Europeans we need standards and the EU ban on some airlines is very welcome.


User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12598 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 20):
AFRAA should also accuse AF of Garuda ban in Europe. Oh but...AF does not fly to Indonesia. So it's surely a KL plot to protect its routes to Indonesia.

Garuda has been flying to AMS for quite some time now..

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 18):
That France is at the origin of several bans may have to do with a lot more African carriers operating to France than most other EU member countries

Exactly.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 17):
Just a retorical question, why isnt AF on the list then after 2 technical reason crashes with fatalities, and one pilot error?

What technical-caused crashes? The Concorde crash was a design flaw which was overlooked until it made its deadly appearance, and could have just as well happened to a BA-bird. The Toronto-crash was indeed quite embarassing carrying some resemblance with African accidents, but the AF447 case (which I suppose you are referring to) hasn't been closed yet. So your 'rhetorical' point is? The AF-safety record might not be the best in the Western European branch of this industry, but it is no where close to the misery at Hewa Bora et cetera..



Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlineMHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1105 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12368 times:

I think the blacklist is fundamentally a good idea. Although I do believe there are some airlines that deserved to be banned, but are not for political reasons. Some Indian carriers come to mind along with MS.

I do think it's a little annoying that France seems to go out of their way to ban carriers, when they have some clear issues with their own civil aviation safety. I'll probably get yelled at for the saying this, but the U.S. system is much better where they first put the airline on "probation" (Category 2), and then give them a chance to improve their safety while still operating flights to the U.S.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 12):

Which African airlines does he have in mind?.

Probably TAAG and LAM Mozambique. If he thinks Hewa Bora should be flying to Europe, the guy should be fired.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 3):
And how many days after taag were blacklisted did they have an accident?

Well that was pilot error, not to mention that the runway was in horrendous condition. It was not a maintenance issue. I believe KQ and ET (the so-called "amazing" African carriers) each wrecked a 737NG because of poor pilot training, but they saw no repercussions for that.

But yes TAAG deserved to be blacklisted in 2007. Unsurprisingly, France was the one who blacklisted them. I think Portugal actually opposed it, but I'm not positive. The Angolan government still views this as a political move on France's part, and I can guaranteeing you that France will never see a TAAG plane again.


User currently offlineflyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11740 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 17):
QF isnt the safest airline

I think you might be misinformed my friend! Qantas is way up there!!!



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
25 thegreatRDU : Flying Hewa Bora is a gamble on your life....seriously.... True...Stavros and Co. are so well entrenched and they looby and have huge a infulence on t
26 Post contains images sw733 : Maybe, but the vast majority of flights DO arrive safely. I have flown them twice and I'm still alive and kickin'!
27 goldorak : Yes now but they have been banned to fly to EU not so long ago. I would be curious to know what you are talking about ?
28 MHTripple7 : I am having trouble linking it, but there was a WSJ article about how "An independent study of Air France-KLM SA's operations found a lack of "strong
29 Post contains images pnd100 : Agreed for sure. Of course Europe could have possibly done more but in defense of the former empires, what money & resources were available to Eu
30 B777LRF : Some good comments so far. As for the "rhetorical" question about France, allow me please to outline the fundamental differences between France and, s
31 Post contains links MHTripple7 : As I said above about AF, I do not think any Indian airlines are blatantly unsafe, and I would fly most of them without thought. In fact, I would pro
32 Post contains links something : Source: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air-ban/doc/list_en.pdf I am not quite sure how little shame one must have to even argue being blacklisted. It'
33 Post contains links Viscount724 : GA is no longer banned from Europe. The ban on GA was lifted two years ago and they reinstated daily service CGK-DXB-AMS in June 2010. http://news.bb
34 MillwallSean : Ahh these wonderful conspiracy theories. Elvis lives and all that. Fact is the airlines get on the list by either failing several spotchecks when they
35 rising : The main concern and I think Chingosho's whole point is it is very convenient for the EU to ban all carriers of a nation in the name of safety, all t
36 airlineecon : Air France is doing those countries a favor. They should be grateful the EU bans their airlines. Otherwise they wouldn't get Air France service and wo
37 MillwallSean : Actually the ban affects Europeans travel arrangements a fair bit, insurance coverage etc isnt there for banned airlines. That means most corporate c
38 Post contains links bestwestern : The immature slamming of of all things French roars as usual on airliners.net from a certain part of the world... And moving on... Again, only a few d
39 Post contains images BrouAviation : Have you actually read all posts? The only 'immature slamming' I have found, came from the African guy quoted in the article and KL 911, who doesn't
40 Post contains images mariner : Then why are some European airlines claiming they need protection from Emirates? But some of it is justified. I'm not defending colonialism in any wa
41 warren747sp : But as soon as u purchase or lease Airbus planes, it gets lifted rather quickly! Go figure! But if u only purchase Boeing then u still have to wait an
42 flyAUA : Can you prove these accusations?
43 MHTripple7 : Well their 777s and 73Gs are not banned now, despite a blanket ban on the entire country. They actually succeeded. Currently operating 9 flights a we
44 subkk : On what authority do you make that statement,?except for certain issues with pilot certification that is being resolved now, i cant think of any othe
45 Aesma : And when a dodgy African airline ends up crashing their Airbus plane, it's our fault, too ! The blacklist is not just about maintenance, and pilot err
46 Post contains images MD11Engineer : Bovine faeces! E.g. Philippine Airlines and Cebu Pacific have whole Airbus fleets. Still they are, as Filipino carriers, banned from EU airspace. The
47 Post contains images pnd100 : To be honest mariner I have no idea! My posts on this subject are well documented. I think the European carriers or AC or anyone else is just being p
48 mariner : There we agree. I often think that some of the European airlines (and British Airways) would be happier if the UAE had gone the same way as Iraq or I
49 brilondon : What are the two technical crashes that you are referring to? The Concorde crashed due to debris on the runway. The YYZ crash was due to poor judgeme
50 MillwallSean : Yes they applied a whole bunch of times to have the ban lifted. Took them a few attempts, and many hired consultants, to get their organisation up to
51 pnd100 : I'm not sure that is true because they have always served the Gulf region. To be fair BA is not protectionist when it comes to EK as I found out thro
52 slinky09 : Off the mark - this is, and always has been, about safety. It's not just about countries, you can have airlines within a country banned, or all airli
53 mrskyguy : Ah ha.. and there's the smoking gun. While I believe it's smart to protect citizens from dangerous operations, I also feel that it's a bit presumptuo
54 Aesma : You don't seem to understand that it's not about history. In some countries, the minister of transport is the son or brother of the president for lif
55 MHTripple7 : If you look at my post above, you will see my concerns with a few Indian carriers. But like I also said above, my main gripe is with the slight doubl
56 Semaex : Try telling that to the people of the DRC, I'm sure they always love paying the extra 1000€ for the trip, while knowing that there are millions of
57 Post contains images flyAUA : If you guys think that certain African airlines have a poor maintenance and safety culture, you don't want to know how ATC works down there
58 packsonflight : If AF where African company they would be blacklisted, because they have terrible accident history. 4 total hull losses for the past 25 years. 5 with
59 Post contains links and images flyAUA : This is not correct. Although I don't like Air France, I must bring to your attention that they actually - compared to the world - are one of the saf
60 EMAman : The reason many of these airlines is banned is simple. It is because they are simply and clearly evidently NOT safe enough. There will always be "anot
61 bjorn14 : I thought the EU banned countries not airlines, because the country's CAA oversight were not up to standards or is that the FAA?
62 bjorn14 : Besides it's almost a moot point because there are few sub-Saharan carriers/countries that even have the equipment to reach Europe non-stop.
63 Post contains links and images flyAUA : Nope, it's airlines, not countries: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air-ban/doc/list_en.pdf It is however often the same thing, as "all airlines certif
64 Post contains links packsonflight : www.planecrashinfo.com/rates.htm According to this link they are the worst of Europe majors, and somewhere below the middle of all the airlines in the
65 EMAman : I didnt say that!! you have misquoted me... please check the contents of reply 60 again..... I dont think that air france safety record is good enoug
66 Post contains images flyAUA : The link you provided uses the adjusted fatal accidents method. I prefer the FLE Index method is more accurate if you want to compare rates One can a
67 packsonflight : Sorry mate. I was going to quote flyAUA
68 Post contains images Pihero : Amusing thread which allows a free-for-all go at one of the favourite A.netters'passtime : French bashing Problem is that as far as I know, the UE is
69 varig md-11 : I am following this thread since the beginning and didn't want to intervene at first.....because I am again going to be taxed of being racist and ever
70 ETinCaribe : As an African, I cannot help but add my voice to this discussion. Well, the issue is not so white or black (pun intended). By in large, I believe the
71 BrouAviation : Yes I do. Don't you think it's a bit tasteless, putting responsibility for 9/11 on the bill of the airlines involved? I absolutely don't want to take
72 Pihero : No, safety / security is NO ACCIDENT. The complete security system, as you call it with reason, is one of the factors that allowed those terrorist at
73 BrouAviation : I understand your point, and I am with you when you consider this ridiculous.
74 Post contains images Semaex : Well, it's not hard to misinterpret such sentences and thus blame it on all of those stereotypic french things That being said, I think every country
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