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777-style Windows On 737RE?  
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 1 week 2 days ago) and read 8745 times:

With plans for the 737RE underway, does anyone think Boeing will go with 777-style windows as they did on the 764ER and 748i? The windows on the 737 have never been updated since the beginning, so I think this would be an opportunity for Boeing to update the windows to the 777-style. As for 787-style windows, that may not be possible due to the lack of a composite fuselage. However, the 777-style windows still seem to match better with the Sky Interior than the current 737 windows. Also, I beleive the 777-style windows weigh less.

What does anyone think?

[Edited 2011-07-20 15:55:45]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8717 times:

I'm sure that eventually all Boeing windows will be standardized. Now, whether this means a current 777 style or something different, I'm not sure. Would make sense to go the 777 route as the 787 might be too large.

UAL


User currently onlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1504 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8689 times:

Why would they want to mess around with the windows?

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8691 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
I'm sure that eventually all Boeing windows will be standardized. Now, whether this means a current 777 style or something different, I'm not sure. Would make sense to go the 777 route as the 787 might be too large.

Well, Boeing chose to go with 777-style windows instead of 787-style on the 748i. I think the 787-style windows only work with a composite fuselage.

Quoting delimit (Reply 2):
Why would they want to mess around with the windows?

For the same reason as the 764ER and 748i - to reduce weight and increase viewable area.

[Edited 2011-07-20 16:08:55]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8558 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
For the same reason as the 764ER and 748i - to reduce weight and increase viewable area.


Increasing the size of he window means decreasing the strength of the fuselage.

Removing more skin to install the larger window will require larger window frames and maybe an increase in the skin thickness to restore that strength, which could add weight.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8551 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 4):
Increasing the size of he window means decreasing the strength of the fuselage.

Removing more skin to install the larger window will require larger window frames and maybe an increase in the skin thickness to restore that strength, which could add weight.

And why would it add weight on the 737 but reduce weight on the 764ER and 748i? It doesn't make any sense; it has been confirmed by Boeing that the 777-style windows weigh less.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineWNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1444 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8423 times:

Im just ready for them to redesign the doors and widen the aisles. The FWD doors are ridiculously heavy to operate (L1/R1) and at 19" the aisles no longer accommodate the American rear. Just flew transcend on an A320, it was much more comfortable from a passenger perspective.


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineamccann From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8423 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
And why would it add weight on the 737 but reduce weight on the 764ER and 748i? It doesn't make any sense; it has been confirmed by Boeing that the 777-style windows weigh less.

It's possible that the 777 style windows themselves weigh less than the original 737, 747, and 767 windows and are able to offset the weight gain necessary to strengthen the window frame / surround.



What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1705 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8401 times:
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You all are talking crazy   Boeing will seek to minimize the development lead time and costs in order to get the RE out there asap. Most of the work is the engine-not their department. If they have a fan small enough, they won't have to redo the wings, wingbox and gear.

No sexy windows for you on the RE!  


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8380 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
Quoting delimit (Reply 2):
Why would they want to mess around with the windows?

For the same reason as the 764ER and 748i - to reduce weight and increase viewable area.

I see no reason to change the windows on the re-engined 737 which will be operated alongside earlier 737 models by many airlines. Reduces maintenance and simplifies parts inventory management to use common parts wherever possible. And 737 windows are larger than A320 windows. I like the A320 family due to the wider cabin but much prefer 737 windows.

Quoting amccann (Reply 8):
It's possible that the 777 style windows themselves weigh less than the original 737, 747, and 767 windows and are able to offset the weight gain necessary to strengthen the window frame / surround.

Using the 777 windows on the 764 required significant structural changes in the 764 fuselage.


User currently offlineamccann From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8172 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
Using the 777 windows on the 764 required significant structural changes in the 764 fuselage.

I understand that and as I was reading a previous thread (777 Eliptical Windows On DL 767's?) the more circular windows of the 777 would indeed require less structure than the more ovoid windows of the earlier Boeing aircraft (so long as the window area is the same). This being due circular windows having a lower stress concentration factor than the more ovoid windows. But once the window area is increased the force on the window frame will also increase, due to the pressurization of the aircraft.



What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8122 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
Using the 777 windows on the 764 required significant structural changes in the 764 fuselage.


Correct!

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
And why would it add weight on the 737 but reduce weight on the 764ER and 748i? It doesn't make any sense; it has been confirmed by Boeing that the 777-style windows weigh less.


From the Boeing "Aero" magazine: "The largest single weight change resulted from the incorporation of a new stringer-less passenger window reinforcement design. The windows on the 767-300ER are rectangular, and a Boeing study showed a potential weight savings of more than 630 lb (286 kg) through the adoption of the same oval-shaped passenger window used in the 777. The support structure for this new window was made simpler and lighter by eliminating the body skin stringers and using forgings".

So the strength lost by increasing the size of the window was regained by the use of forgings that are lighter but stronger than what was than what they replaced.


User currently offlineZKNCL From New Zealand, joined Oct 2010, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8073 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
The windows on the 737 have never been updated since the beginning

Was I dreaming that the eyebrows have been removed?

Also why should the windows be changed? The only aircraft that need changes with the windows are Airbus planes   but why would you add the cost of changing the whole structure just to make the windows look nicer? I doubt this will happen.

Z~k~N~c~L


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7964 times:

Quoting ZKNCL (Reply 13):
The only aircraft that need changes with the windows are Airbus planes but why would you add the cost of changing the whole structure just to make the windows look nicer

Simple, to reduce weight and thus increase fuel economy. Such a change wouldn't be only for styling purposes.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7898 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 14):
Quoting ZKNCL (Reply 13):
The only aircraft that need changes with the windows are Airbus planes but why would you add the cost of changing the whole structure just to make the windows look nicer

Simple, to reduce weight and thus increase fuel economy. Such a change wouldn't be only for styling purposes.

Doubtful the fuel savings would be worth the effort on 737s operating much shorter routes where fuel is a much smaller percentage of total operating costs than on typical widebody routes. If the benefits were that significant Boeing would have changed the windows on their narrowbodies long ago.


User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7877 times:

Look - if they have to raise the gear OR widen the windows, they have to recertify a bunch of systems. They don't want to do that, which is why they're going to go with the smaller fan that will fit in the current nacelle.

NS


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3388 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7115 times:
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Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 9):
No sexy windows for you on the RE!

correct... maybe on the 797 but a waste of time and money here

Quoting ZKNCL (Reply 13):
Was I dreaming that the eyebrows have been removed?

about two years ago.... there is also a kit for post delivery deletion.


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2011 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6863 times:

If they want to fix the windows on the 737, then they need to make them higher so you look out of them, not down at them  

No chance of course...



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6751 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 17):
correct... maybe on the 797 but a waste of time and money here

So, why would it be a waste of time and money on the 737RE but not on the 748i?



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinejsquared From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6477 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 9):
You all are talking crazy Boeing will seek to minimize the development lead time and costs in order to get the RE out there asap. Most of the work is the engine-not their department. If they have a fan small enough, they won't have to redo the wings, wingbox and gear.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
Using the 777 windows on the 764 required significant structural changes in the 764 fuselage.

Didn't Boeing indicate they want to avoid scope creep on any 737 re-engine project? A major structural change would only add more time and complications - they need to get this plane out there ASAP!

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 19):
So, why would it be a waste of time and money on the 737RE but not on the 748i?

The 748i was a complete re-design of the aircraft - the 737RE is (hypothetically) just that - a re-engine of an existing airframe with "minor" landing gear changes if necessary.


User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6412 times:

There is no upside to changing the window design of the 737RE. There is very significant downside. It won't even be considered.

User currently offlineodwyerpw From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6207 times:

It would require a rework of the side panels of the sky interior too (which I guess in the grand scheme would be insignificant to change the shape of the window reveals).


Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5528 times:

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 18):
If they want to fix the windows on the 737, then they need to make them higher so you look out of them, not down at them

I actually prefer the 737 window positioning. Most people who like window seats want to look down at the ground, not straight out at the sky. The 737 positioning works better for that.

I've always thought Airbus windows are slightly too high on the fuselage for a decent view. Their small size also doesn't help. The L-1011 had the same problem compared to the DC-10/MD-11. I guess it also depends how tall you are.


User currently offlineGarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2624 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3989 times:

One a purely aesthetic point of view, 777 windows on a 737 would look good.




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User currently offlinejfritz From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3490 times:

Im new to all of this guys, what is the current size difference now between a 737NG window and an Airbus window. And is Airbus changing their windows going into the NEO's? Im a tall guy (6'3'') and would love a bigger window or a higher one so i dont have to bend in half to see out of them! Thanks

25 tullamarine : Boeing will be keen to avoid any major structural redesign (doors/windows) for a couple of reasons. One is obviously the cost. They can't afford this
26 1337Delta764 : Well, the overwing exits were redesigned with the 737NG, where instead of removable plug exits, there are the self-disposing hatches that open out an
27 kanban : let's see... new programs for cutting the holes in the body panels, new chem millling plans for body skins' integral straps, new design and casting f
28 Post contains images AirbusA6 : I'm tall, so get a stiff neck trying to look out of the window from the window seat, as it's much too low for me, and more comfortable to look out of
29 Burkhard : I'm sure that IF Boeing really makes a 737RE, there will be alot of internal fights about this and that "little" thing to add or not to add. If Boeing
30 Garpd : As odd as it may sound, the windows are not there for your enjoyment, but as a safety aid. They're installed on flatest part of the fuselage to keep
31 jfritz : What safety aid? Again, new to all of this...
32 Garpd : To help the crew see out of the aircraft in the event of a crash landing or some sort of damage to the wings/engines/control surfaces in flight. You d
33 Post contains links and images zippyjet : It's already a done deal. Check out the new and improved Boeing Sky Interior We, WN FL will be taking delivery of these birds around 2012 or 2013. Th
34 Viscount724 : The Sky Interior windows are identical to all other 737s. Only the interior panels around the windows are oval-shaped to make them look more like the
35 zippyjet : I could have sworn I read in the PR somewhere either in a 1 Luv newsletter or on Boeing's site that these windows are actually larger than the old sc
36 Viscount724 : Not correct. That would involve major structural changes. The Boeing information I've seen on the Sky Interior refers to redesigned "window reveals"
37 Post contains images zippyjet : But its sometimes those gimmicks that boost sales. Gotta give Boeing credit for milking a design or concept. I do hope the RE 737 engines are perfect
38 amccann : I hate to tell you, but I'd be willing to bet the "squishy" nacelle is here to stay. The flat bottom nacelle was for ground clearance issues. As I'm
39 Post contains images zippyjet : Actually, the squishy bottom evolved with the 600 series on up. The engine shape/nacelle isn't as radically oblong looking. [Edited 2011-07-23 22:22:
40 Post contains links and images amccann : Of course the nacelle shape has evolved over the different aircraft series, but the NG nacelle does still have a flatter bottom of the nacelle. View
41 DocLightning : If the point is to have as much in common with the 73G series as possible, then why would it make any sense to make a structural change like this?
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