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Air New Zealand Frustrated Over New 787-9 Delay  
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1581 posts, RR: 3
Posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 14384 times:

Quote:
Air New Zealand has said frustration would be an "understatement" of its reaction to a new delay that could now see the Boeing 787-9 enter service later in 2014 than planned.

Boeing had last advised ANZ, the launch customer of the stretched 787, that it would receive its first of eight aircraft in late 2013 or early 2014. ANZ said that date has slipped to an undetermined period in 2014 that it is still in discussions with Boeing about.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ustrated-over-new-787-9-delay.html

The additional delay is not surprising I suppose especially as the 787 line is suspended again for another month. I'd expect it to slip to late 2014 / early 2015 ie another years delay.


BV
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31117 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 14397 times:
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I suppose it will depend on how quickly CHS ramps, since 787-9 production will be (initially) exclusive to PAE.

User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5624 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 14375 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Thread starter):
The additional delay is not surprising I suppose especially as the 787 line is suspended again for another month.

Bummer................moving on.

Quoting BoeingVista (Thread starter):
I'd expect it to slip to late 2014 / early 2015 ie another years delay.

You are expecting a one year delay? Interesting.....

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1581 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14323 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2):
You are expecting a one year delay? Interesting.....

Yep, because I don't think that Boeing have updated the 787-9 timeline since the electrical fire so there is quite a bit of adjustment required.



BV
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31117 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14323 times:
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Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 3):
Yep, because I don't think that Boeing have updated the 787-9 timeline since the electrical fire so there is quite a bit of adjustment required.

That should not affect the 787-9's development since it's already been fixed on the 787-8.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5476 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14310 times:

What are Boeings' goals and priorities for this latest, (and hopefully last), production stoppage?


What the...?
User currently offlineacjflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 427 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14286 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
That should not affect the 787-9's development since it's already been fixed on the 787-8.



Development - perhaps not, but production - most definitely. They are already behind schedule with the 787-8 and until CHS is up and running to the fullest extent then Boeing may be focusing on trying to catch up on the 787-8 delivery delays resulting in 787-9 delivery delays. Enter ANZ.


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1581 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14276 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
That should not affect the 787-9's development since it's already been fixed on the 787-8.

Yes it has but that pushed the 787-8 out by 9 months ish so we should expect at least that for the 787-9. Also as mentioned above the 787 line is currently in a hold position so that month will also have to be factored in + ramp up is admitted to be slower that planned so a year doesn't seem an outlandish amount.



BV
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4186 posts, RR: 89
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14234 times:
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From the article;

Boeing had last advised ANZ, the launch customer of the stretched 787, that it would receive its first of eight aircraft in late 2013 or early 2014. ANZ said that date has slipped to an undetermined period in 2014 that it is still in discussions with Boeing about.

A spokeswoman for Boeing said that late 2013 remains the target, "although we are continually assessing that schedule as we move toward planned rate increases in the programme".


Do we prepare for a possible 4-6 month delay for the 789, if NZ get these in the H2 of 2014 that would seem to confirm another delay for EIS.



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlinezkojh From China, joined Sep 2004, 1717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13367 times:

I don't think the word ''FRUSTRATED' even comes to mind, once again NZ are a sitting Duck!! ha-ha best get those 77W's and 77L ordered now then, just think they ordered the first lot of 787's in 2004 and now won't get anything till 2014! a whopping 10 Years!!! for an aircraft, has any other airline waited so long? Boeing could become very un-popular with NZ ! if they haven't already. Hey I'm sure some nice A330's would look cool. lol


CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13025 times:

I suspect that 2014 is a completely unrealistic timeframe for the 789.

Boeing will put all their efforts in getting a 788 with acceptable performance into the air, as the media will have no grasp of the difference between the 788 and 789.

I think that Air NZ will be lucky to get a single 789 in 2015, and they could be looking at 2016.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5054 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 12888 times:

Quoting zkojh (Reply 9):
Hey I'm sure some nice A330's would look cool. lol

They were a little quick returning some ( was it two or three) of their 767-300ER's to the leasing company. In the context of the A330 the 300 does not have the range for their Asian operations and in my view they would be better off with more 300ER's than a very small number of A332 's.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 12778 times:

Wow what a surprise... Not...

Hopefully they will actually get some stopgaps now like they should have years ago. Be they 77Es or 763ERs, they need something to help them grow their business before these planes eventually turn up..


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12519 posts, RR: 35
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 12654 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 10):
I suspect that 2014 is a completely unrealistic timeframe for the 789.

Boeing will put all their efforts in getting a 788 with acceptable performance into the air, as the media will have no grasp of the difference between the 788 and 789.

I think that Air NZ will be lucky to get a single 789 in 2015, and they could be looking at 2016.

Seeing what the 789 delays have been so far, it's hard to dismiss this possibility out of hand. However, one would think that with the 788 under its belt, the 789's testing/manufacturing process would be a lot smoother. Yes, as Boeing says, there will be delays, but hopefully not as much as you suggest. As it is, Boeing will need to be making some concessions to ANZ and let's hope this includes some 777s as an interim solution.


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1581 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 12593 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 13):
Seeing what the 789 delays have been so far, it's hard to dismiss this possibility out of hand. However, one would think that with the 788 under its belt, the 789's testing/manufacturing process would be a lot smoother. Yes, as Boeing says, there will be delays, but hopefully not as much as you suggest. As it is, Boeing will need to be making some concessions to ANZ and let's hope this includes some 777s as an interim solution.

But Boeing still doesn't seem to be able to get the 788 under its belt doe it? And as an aside it has just been pushed into another program that will eat design and certification resources, the 737RE



BV
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7563 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12028 times:

Quoting zkojh (Reply 9):
has any other airline waited so long?

All the other airlines who have ordedred it would spring to mind.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11296 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
they need something to help them grow their business before these planes eventually turn up..

NZ also needs something to launch the routes with it would like to launch before someone else beats them like CO to IAH-AKL with the 788s


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10867 times:

Quoting zkojh (Reply 9):
I don't think the word ''FRUSTRATED' even comes to mind, once again NZ are a sitting Duck!! ha-ha best get those 77W's and 77L ordered now then, just think they ordered the first lot of 787's in 2004 and now won't get anything till 2014! a whopping 10 Years!!! for an aircraft, has any other airline waited so long? Boeing could become very un-popular with NZ ! if they haven't already. Hey I'm sure some nice A330's would look cool. lol

Neithe the A-332, nor the A-333 can do the B-789 mission. So why get something you know won't work?

Quoting koruman (Reply 10):
I think that Air NZ will be lucky to get a single 789 in 2015, and they could be looking at 2016.

Do you have some kind of inside knowledge of this, or is it just the Airbus in you talking?

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 14):
But Boeing still doesn't seem to be able to get the 788 under its belt doe it? And as an aside it has just been pushed into another program that will eat design and certification resources, the 737RE


With first delivery of the B-788 as early as next month, and somewhere between 5 and 20 delivered by the end of the year, I'd say the B-788 program is getting under control. The B-789 program should benefit from 'lessons learned' from its siter the B-788. Boeing is not doing most work on the B-737NE until 2013, so that should give them resourses to use on the B-789 between now and then. The B-737NE will not interfer with the certification program of the B-789.

NZ has a right to be PO'd, but they have not had the B-789 on order for 10 years. In 2004 they ordered the B-788, then became the launch customer for the B-789 in 2007.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4802 posts, RR: 40
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10554 times:
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Quoting zkojh (Reply 9):
I don't think the word ''FRUSTRATED' even comes to mind, once again NZ are a sitting Duck!!

Though this is very unfortunate, they hardly have alternatives now. The A350 will also be 6 months delayed, and with almost 600 orders that line is also sold out for years. And also the A330 lines are full with a more then 4 year backlog as well.

It is sad to say but both the big OEM's have put their customers/are putting their customers through quite an ordeal. And they are paying for it with some form of compensations. The customers are suffering, but are picking up the compensation tab. That still will leave them frustrated or even worse, but that is sadly enough the reality of the situation in the larger WB-market today.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5476 posts, RR: 30
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9956 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 18):
That still will leave them frustrated or even worse, but that is sadly enough the reality of the situation in the larger WB-market today.

Are they learning the lessons?

Hopefully, Boeing is doing their best to get ahead of the curve on the 789. Most of the problems should have been worked out with the 788, (taking Hstab away from Alenia, for example, and setting up Charleston), so once they get the clutter cleared away and that production smoothed out, developing the 789, (in theory), shouldn't be nearly as difficult.

Look at the list of problems that plagued the 788, that the 789 won't have to go through; fasteners, barrels, Hstab, power racks, brakes, wing root, engines, software...These have all been the cause of delays on the 788...and shouldn't be on the 789.



What the...?
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9816 times:
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I am surprised that NZ have not looked at some 787-8s to be leased in as interim measures - there have been a few -8 cancellations recently and I would have thought that a pissed off launch customer for the -9 would have some sort of priority with Boeing when re-allocating those production slots. Even if they got their hands on 3 or 4 787-8s starting towards the end of 2013 for a short term lease of 2-3 years that would surely help the situation. Once the 787-8 has actually been certified and entered service I would not be too surprised it Boeing and NZ arranged something like this.


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12634 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9816 times:
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Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 17):
With first delivery of the B-788 as early as next month, and somewhere between 5 and 20 delivered by the end of the year, I'd say the B-788 program is getting under control.

We'll know for sure next week how many 787s Boeing will deliver this year. Some analysts put the number as low as two!

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 17):
then became the launch customer for the B-789 in 2007.

Incorrect.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2006/q2/060511d_nr.html

Quote:
PHOENIX, May 11, 2006 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] will deliver the first 787-9 Dreamliner to Air New Zealand in December 2010. Boeing and ANZ, along with engine-maker Rolls-Royce, held a ceremonial signing today in which ANZ converted its original order for four 787-8 airplanes to four 787-9 airplanes.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9697 times:
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Quoting scbriml (Reply 21):
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2006/q2/060511d_nr.html

Quote:
PHOENIX, May 11, 2006 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] will deliver the first 787-9 Dreamliner to Air New Zealand in December 2010. Boeing and ANZ, along with engine-maker Rolls-Royce, held a ceremonial signing today in which ANZ converted its original order for four 787-8 airplanes to four 787-9 airplanes.

OT, I know, but I am curious if anyone can remember why this release originated in Phoenix, it seems an odd place to release news relating to an airline headquartered in AKL, a UK engine manufacturer and an aircraft manufacturer physically based in Seattle but HQ'd in Chicago? Does any have an explanation?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineThe Coachman From Australia, joined Apr 2001, 1429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9624 times:

NZ should look at some of the SQ 77E's being off-loaded as a stopgap measure (at least to the extent they are not being used for the SQ LCC).

Negotiate 5 year leases and they should be ok. Same engine type so no issues there.



M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5054 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 7980 times:

Quoting The Coachman (Reply 23):
NZ should look at some of the SQ 77E's being off-loaded as a stopgap measure (at least to the extent they are not being used for the SQ LCC).

Better still , the three AI 77L's that were reported to be available . Would allow service to start to BOM and ORD or IAH.


25 CODC10 : Although there is no revenue sharing on the route, IAH-AKL is hardly a bad thing because I'm sure NZ expects to gather substantial connecting traffic
26 zkeoj : Now, that would be a sharp looking bird! That sounds like the most reasonable solution to me. I hope they'll come up with something like that! Cheers
27 col : I think the smart airlines are those taking 330's and 777's at present. CX and SQ come to mind, then wait while Airbus and Boeing sort their cluster *
28 aerorobnz : My feeling is that NZ should have never changed their order from one type to the other, rather ordered 789s in addition to 788s. Hindsight is a wonder
29 qf002 : Hmm I actually really like that idea. Air Pacific had their order for 8 -8s quite close to the top of the list - half of these slots could be allocat
30 Post contains images koruman : The whole 789 order was ill-conceived from the outset. Air NZ has for several years been quite public about the fact that it would like to open new l
31 luftaom : I suspect NZ will have a while to get used to the idea of no 789's... Boeing has been woefully inaccurate in their public and presumably private deliv
32 328JET : In the latest issue of the "Flug Revue" was a nice article about wellington airport in NZ. It states that the original plan from ANZ was to go longhau
33 sunrisevalley : This is news! NZ have consistently downplayed any long haul aspirations from WLG. At about 6300feet WLG is too short for any sector other than maybe
34 xiaotung : This is news indeed. NZ has shown in numerous occasions no interest in opening long haul routes from WLG because they think it will jeopardise their
35 SCL767 : Why can't two carriers compete on the GRU-AKL route? And who says that JJ would even code-share with NZ on that route? For example, does JJ code-shar
36 kiwiandrew : I think it is more likely that NZ have shown no interest in opening longhaul routes from WLG because the market isn't there to justify the services.
37 A330NZ : This is a surorise, because although earthquakes have rattled the area, CHC has much better connections to tourist areas and ski-fields
38 BoeingVista : I remember this being stated at the time of the order, it was also Boeing rationale for the 787 vis A380, point to point rather than hub and spoke. I
39 Post contains links kiwiandrew : Boeing have come back today to say that they still expect EIS late 2013 http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...-eis-track-late-2013-delivery-0726 If E
40 cchan : IMHO, it would be better interpreted as Boeing hoping for 2013 EIS or that they don't have any serious estimate regarding the 787-9 at this stage.
41 SWA737800 : Boeing seems to be behind on a lot of things these days...
42 BoeingVista : The spokesman “reaffirmed its guidance that 787-9 first delivery is scheduled for late 2013.” but there is an earnings call tonight where Boeing
43 kiwiandrew : Surely even Boeing realise that they are going to look pretty stupid if they say one thing in the morning and something completely different in the e
44 col : I would tend to side with ANZ that there will be a slip, par for the course. I would assume that ANZ also have engineers working wih the Boeing guys,
45 Post contains links and images scbriml : That hasn't stopped them in the past - maybe not as quickly as one day to the next, but not far off! These 'rumours' just before major Boeing announc
46 Post contains images frigatebird : I believe the the 787-9 development is still on track, however, getting production ramped up for the 787 program as a whole is the main issue now. Un
47 garpd : Um, the 788 is on the cusp of EIS. It is in the last stages or certification. How much more "under the belt" can it get? Do not mistake the productio
48 astuteman : Are they different? Most of the production stoppages have been due to development issues. Getting the plane certified, and getting it into reliable s
49 robffm2 : Regarding the FAA shutdown, is there any delay in certification likely?
50 qf002 : Maybe try getting a decent number of planes out to airlines who have been waiting years for these aircraft. Under the belt means that everything is u
51 Stitch : No. The FAA has positioned themselves to ensure that they will not delay the certification of the 747-8 and 787-8.
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