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AF447 Disaster: New Report On Friday  
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 51792 times:

French media say that a new report about AF447 accident between Rio and Paris will be published Friday.
The BEA is talking about "new facts". They say that the report will state the exact circumstances of the crash.

http://www.leparisien.fr/crash-rio-p...es-vendredi-25-07-2011-1544732.php

362 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 51673 times:

Here is the official communication:

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/com25juillet2011.fr.php

Press meeting Friday at 14:30 CEST


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 50094 times:

I've had to clean up this thread due to all of the "rules" users were "proposing" for this discussion. The only rules for this thread can be found here:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/rules.main?confirm=no

All users are expected to post within the Forum Rules, and if they cannot, they risk having their post deleted. There will be no special rules for this thread.


User currently offlineIrishpower From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 386 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 45043 times:

What have they decided to do with the recovery of the bodies. I know that they pulled a couple of them up and they were able to be identified but have they moved forward with a plan to recover the rest that they can see in and among the debris?

User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 44896 times:
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Quoting Irishpower (Reply 3):
What have they decided to do with the recovery of the bodies. I know that they pulled a couple of them up

They brought up a lot more than a couple of them


http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/1551...tion-air-france-black-box-flig.htm

In total, both in the immediate aftermath of the crash, and in the recent work at depth they recovered remains of at least 127 people. It is also quite likely that a lot of bodies were missed first time around, trying to find something the size of a human body in open ocean is no easy task.


I assume that what we will see on Friday will be an interim report? I imagine that with the recorders only recovered a few months ago there will still be a lot of work before we see the final report.

[Edited 2011-07-26 01:42:54]


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 44719 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 2):
I've had to clean up this thread due to all of the "rules" users were "proposing" for this discussion.

Oh !

I totally missed the discussion which happened on this thread tonight (for me), so I don't know what was said, but I think it will end up by being a pilot error by lack of preparation.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fra...-mal-prepare-selon-les-pilotes.php

"AF447: the crew was bad prepared, according to the pilots". AF seems to be at fault.


User currently offlinecuban8 From Kiribati, joined Sep 2009, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 43925 times:

I love it when even recognized newspapers as "Le Figaro" makes an effort writing something in English and it still comes out wrong  

"Quote": En 2009, en cas de décrochage, il fallait mettre les gaz à fond (TOGA) et réduire l'incidence ( reduce peach ).

I have to admit, pitch a peaches are almost the same as apples and oranges 

Back to topic.
I never like to criticize pilots after incidents/accidents since you would never know what actions you would take in a similar situation. That being said, stall recovery is definitely one of the things you learn at an early stage in your pilot career, regardless of airplane type. Defending professional pilots for not knowing how to stall recover is a bit vague in my opinion.

On top of that, if i remember correctly, the "new" Airbus stall recovery procedure came out after the A320 Air New Zealand test flight crash outside Perpignan in 2008. Recommendation came out in early 2009, which is well before the Air France crash.

Still I believe the crew did all they could with the information and experience at hand, unfortunately, that is not always enough.  


User currently onlineflyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 602 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 43895 times:

Why don't we just wait until friday?

Regards

flyglobal


User currently offlineWoof From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 43757 times:

Quoting sebolino (Thread starter):
Why don't we just wait until friday?

Why as soon as Friday? Friday's report is likely only an interim. Why not wait until the full report is published, and then wait a little longer in case it gets updated?

This is a forum. It's what people do.


User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 641 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 43748 times:

I'm starting to be very pissed about french medias and all the wrong informations they've been issuing since the very beginning of this story.
It's a shame for us french to have such crappy medias and newspapers.

Quoting sebolino (Reply 5):
I totally missed the discussion which happened on this thread tonight (for me), so I don't know what was said, but I think it will end up by being a pilot error by lack of preparation.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fra...-mal-prepare-selon-les-pilotes.php

"AF447: the crew was bad prepared, according to the pilots". AF seems to be at fault.

That's exaxctly what I'm talking about, first with the "Figaro", whose journalist (who doesn't deserve to have his name said, really) is constantly leading a personal vendetta against AF! And I do weigh my words.
Every article is filled with nothing but rapid and insulting short assumption, misinterpretation of facts, in a simple attempt of blaming pilots and the crew in general.

Again, the only informations to belive here, are the ones issued by official publications, like the french BEA.
I don't think that posting a link to "Le Parisien" or "Le Figaro" or any other french newspaper can be of any help in trying to understand what happened that night on AF447 flight.

Let's focus on the facts, only the facts.

Cheers,

Dave



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12868 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 43563 times:
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Quoting airproxx (Reply 9):
I'm starting to be very pissed about french medias and all the wrong informations they've been issuing since the very beginning of this story.

In all honesty, it's not just the French media. Most non-aviation news media around the World is very poor at reporting aviation. Look at this from a Daily Mail report about the RIAT air show recently:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...batic-team-come-seconds-smash.html

Quote:
Close call for flight aerobatic team as they come seconds from smash

Actually, I think you'll find they were flying in formation!   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 43266 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 10):
Actually, I think you'll find they were flying in formation!

But that photo is breath taking, you must agree! On the other hand I agree. I compared for years now newspaper articles, radio and TV reports with things I can judge - was part of - saw myself - and in all cases the articles and reports were plain wrong or contained at least one severe error. Out of more than 100 cases I found none where the report was correct.


User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 641 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 42582 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 10):
Actually, I think you'll find they were flying in formation!

Yep.. Agreed. The article sounds ridiculous indeed.

I don't know who's to blame... Medias? Or people taking their trashes for truth..



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlinegiopan1975 From Greece, joined Jun 2009, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 42240 times:

".........This report will present the exact circumstances of the accident with an initial analysis and some new findings based on the data recovered from the flight recorders.................."

That note was just a firework.

I guess they have to make public ALL they know so far in this interim and let people draw their conclusions, since BEA final conclusion to be found only in the Final report.


User currently offlinepylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 41552 times:

In most cases an official interim report is all what public is inetersted in.
In most cases the final report has more details - but rarely changes the whole thing.
So tomorrow is The Big Day for all who had been following from the day 1.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12930 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 41430 times:

Quoting sebolino (Reply 5):
I think it will end up by being a pilot error by lack of preparation.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fra...-mal-prepare-selon-les-pilotes.php

"AF447: the crew was bad prepared, according to the pilots". AF seems to be at fault.

For this article, here's Google Translate: French to English.

Also the top of the page lets you change the language to translate to.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 41210 times:

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 7):
Why don't we just wait until friday?

Regards

flyglobal

+1, should be quite informative and answer a lot of questions.


User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4666 posts, RR: 77
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 40683 times:
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Quoting pylon101 (Reply 14):
The Big Day for all who had been following from the day 1.
Quoting comorin (Reply 16):
should be quite informative and answer a lot of questions.

Yes. But please do not expect to have all the answers and causes to-day.
That's not how the investigation works. And that won't be available before the final report.
On the other hand, we will have , I hope, quite a lot of new information on the circumstances and the factors.
The term *factors* is IMO the most important as a great deal of this investigation will be concentrating on man/machine interface.
It looks as if the initial conditions are now understood.
What happens next is a matter of human *factors*, mostly... That is about procedures / interpretations / training or awareness...etc...

See you all this evening.



Contrail designer
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12930 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 40097 times:

It seems to me that:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 17):
It looks as if the initial conditions are now understood.
What happens next is a matter of human *factors*, mostly... That is about procedures / interpretations / training or awareness...etc...

Is just a polite way of saying:

Quoting sebolino (Reply 5):
"AF447: the crew was bad prepared, according to the pilots".

which is what several pilots quoted off the record in the Le Figaro article linked above are saying.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBrusselsSouth From Belgium, joined Aug 2001, 628 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 40044 times:

While I still haven't had time to read them, here are the new publications by the BEA :


New findings : http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/note29juillet2011.en.pdf

New safety recommendations : http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/reco29juillet2011.en.pdf

Regards
BrusselsSouth


User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1920 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 39806 times:

Quoting BrusselsSouth (Reply 19):
here are the new publications by the BEA


Not good for AF's pilots ego, and for AF itself.
Apart from the pitots issue, the ac is deemed to have operated as required.
Stall recovery in altitude is the key.
Interesting recommendation about video monitoring of cockpit instruments, particularly if we have in mind the hefty discussion on this subject on a.net.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 39690 times:
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Quoting BrusselsSouth (Reply 19):
While I still haven't had time to read them, here are the new publications by the BEA

Thanks for sharing.  .


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6920 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 39584 times:

I too was most surprised by the recommendation of video in the cockpit, that will stir up things !


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineTCASAlert From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 39221 times:

Wow - not good for AF at all.

I still don't understand how the AP disconnected though - was this a conscious decision by the PF or is this something that would have happened as a result of the turbulence? If the AP had not disconnected then they wouldn't have been flying manually and the accident would not have happened..?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 22):
I too was most surprised by the recommendation of video in the cockpit, that will stir up things !

I was surprised by this as well - very interesting, I wonder if this will be a recommendation in more accident reports as the authorities have been pushing for this?


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 39221 times:

Thanks for the link, this reading is really scaring.

25 sshd : As the pitot got blocked, there was no reliable IAS. Thus, the AP got disconnected.
26 Post contains images TCASAlert : I see, thanks for the input
27 Mir : I might have time to read through this on my flight today, but without a CVR transcript I'm not sure how much more useful this is going to be. Unlikel
28 eisenbach : From the todays BEA note: "The copilots had received no high altitude training for the "Unreliable IAS" procedure and manual air craft handling" That'
29 racko : I still can't make any sense of why the PF made Nose-Up inputs and why he moved the throttles to the Idle position.
30 rfields5421 : The aircraft computer systems automatically disconnect the AP and the AT when they lose air speed data. Without reliable air speed data - neither an
31 LTC8K6 : Stunning...I can't believe this happened this way. It's almost as if they had just sat on their hands for a minute, they would have simply flown out o
32 slinky09 : It appears that without any training for such a situation, they simply did not know what was happening, or were to stunned to react, or some other re
33 scbriml : Or to help remove any ambiguity when a pilot says something (especially if it's translated to another language)? The phrase "I don't have any more in
34 rfields5421 : Some initial nose up is the correct procedure for loss of air speed data - however he went past that amount of nose up. A question is what did his in
35 rfields5421 : The BEA first interim report on the crash in July 2009 describes Air France procedures for this type event, including copies of the checklists. The B
36 chuchoteur : In actual fact, in the french version of the recommendation the BEA recommends "d’enregistreurs d’images permettant de visionner l’ensemble du
37 Post contains links fotoflyer71 : http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/pr...eme-rapport-detape-du-bea/back/61/ Air France’s reaction to the publication of the BEA’s third intermediate
38 breiz : Quite correct. I was a bit quick in using the "video" word to refer to pictures of the instruments. However, there are still mechanical back-up instr
39 Pihero : As expected, there isn't a lot of new material in this "synthesis". The question still remains about the hows and the whys of the SFO's control inputs
40 affirmative : I wrote in one of the earlier threads in the aftermath of the crash that it seemed they were in a stalled or close to a stalled condition all the way
41 fotoflyer71 : Hi Pihero - do you think a formal "Interim Report No3" will be published after press conference, or do you think this "synthesis" is all we are going
42 EPA001 : I would actually prefer both. So that the crews actions and behaviour can be analysed in conjunction with the information presented to them by the in
43 Pihero : I hope we'll get an interim # 3 as the press conference showed slides that are not available in the synthesis.
44 AAExecPlat : AFs response is frankly laughable. In the face of overwhelming evidence that the pilots were insufficiently trained for an event that should be absol
45 packsonflight : Lately some carriers have canged the way they train stall recovery. Now the aim is to unload the wing with nose down pitch to gain airspeed and then a
46 EPA001 : That is entirely correct. I am not so sure about this. I fly KLM very frequently and would not go out of my way of flying with them. I guess the same
47 FlySSC : You've got the answer here :
48 wolbo : It would be disappointing if the focus of the investigation lies almost entirely on pilot error and training deficiencies and disregards the HCI (Huma
49 SandroZRH : Not true, we certainly got high altitude upset recovery and/paired with unreliable speed (among others) training. What I understand is however that i
50 maddog888 : "the simulators are NOT DESIGNED for that purpose"?????. (my capitals) That there seem to be a worrying state of affairs. What the heck is a simulato
51 Pihero : Have you done any HIgh altitude stall escape training ?, because that's what at stake here. Upset / abnormal attitude recovery are part of the contin
52 AAExecPlat : Pihero. I am not a pilot, so I have no answers for you. What I would like to do is ask you whether you and your colleagues at least receive theoretic
53 giopan1975 : Is it only my impression that: 1) This "note combination" (where the heck is the interim report we have been waiting?) DIRECTLY points the finger to 2
54 Post contains links birdbrainz : Aviation Week published this article: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...%20Identified%20Stall&channel=comm I don' t think it looks very good
55 Post contains links Pihero : the BEAbhas published the interim # 3 and it's 117 pages. In annex is the full (?) CVR transcript and there 's a lot of explaining. The corrollation o
56 maddog888 : That seems like a bit an overstatement on your part. If it was so difficult to hand fly airbuses, why have so many other pilots successfully recovere
57 rfields5421 : It is unfortunate to see Aviation Week print such a blatant LIE. The May 27 Note and this Note both show where the PF did try to push the nose down t
58 SchorschNG : Simulators can do that, but they cannot simulate a fully developed stall (in any altitude) as the basic aerodynamic data for that is simply not exist
59 Pihero : What is annoying, and to be perfectly clear and truthful, is the amount of moronic anti Airbus and anti Air France opinions coming on this thread. And
60 tugger : I do think that there should be full video in the cockpit. I see no reason for there not to be. My pilot friend is defensive about it and against it.
61 a380900 : I understand the crew may be at fault here. Yet, I'm baffled at how the systems did not convey more clues and warnings as to the sheer magnitude of w
62 AdmiralRitt : The one man who could have saved the flight chose to let the Jr Pilots solve the problem. It was just very unlucky I might add that he went on a rest
63 Pihero : Videoing the pilots' actions in the cockpit? Try it and you'll soon discover the clout of the IFALPA. We've been had once before when every state swor
64 rfields5421 : There was a stall warning - several times. However, a stall warning sounds when the aircraft loses air speed data - not because the aircraft is in a
65 SXI899 : Pihero, maybe you can comment on this. It strikes me as a possibilty that the PF reacted to the loss of airspeed information by applying the techniqu
66 EPA001 : Why not? Especially if it can save lives in the future and if it enables a much faster and better analysis on accidents? I respectfully disagree. It
67 rfields5421 : Please note There was a 117 page Interim Report #3 released today. It is not available in English yet. It goes into much greater detail that the very
68 chuchoteur : ... not really. The ISIS (integrated standby instrument system) is electronic (with it's own back-up power supply etc). In actual fact the ISIS has p
69 Post contains images Kaiarahi : More telling is that neither of the pilots recognized the stall buffet (the captain was not in the cockpit at that point). Perhaps you should read th
70 AAExecPlat : Where in the report do you see evidence that the PF did not have a vertical speed indication? I have skimmed the report myself and can't find that pi
71 WNBob : Sounds to me, the pilots ignored the stall warnings believing that they were false. To all who are working in the industry: Why planes don't use GPS?
72 rfields5421 : Just my speculation - but the aircraft was in some turbulence, and the crew was troubleshooting another problem. The brief stall buffet could have be
73 Kaiarahi : As has been explained dozens of times on these threads, GPS does NOT measure airspeed or angle of attack. Stalls have nothing to do with groundspeed,
74 rfields5421 : GPS can only show ground speed. Stall is a function of air speed - the speed of the air over the wings - and a GPS based system has no way to even gu
75 cosmofly : Regardless of legal purpose, I agree with AF that the stall warning turning off at less than 60kt is a key factor. PF put nose down, thus increasing
76 chuchoteur : The PF was in the right hand seat, and the Right hand instrument panel is not recorded. In fact, we don't know what the PF could or couldn't see. Hen
77 akhristov : Can you clarify that? Thanks.
78 RVV2011 : But how often does it happen that ground speed is very low and the aircraft is not in a stall, at high altitude? GPS doesn't have to diagnose a stall
79 robffm2 : I agree on the airspeed, but just use to GPS receivers and given the length of a plane you should be able to calculate the AoA.
80 birdbrainz : Do we all agree that the stall should have been recoverable? If so, which one is it? A. The pilots were adequately experienced and trained, but screwe
81 GBan : GPS can show ground speed as well as vertical speed, the latter could provide at least an indication of what is going on. Multiple GPS receivers coul
82 chuchoteur : F. None of the above. I believe the pilots were adequately experienced and trained (of course, more training is always good, but then you'd spend you
83 Baroque : How many asking the "simple" questions about detecting stalls and recovering from a stalled condition know about either at night in a thunderstorm wit
84 AAExecPlat : So if I read this correctly, Pihero's assertion is inaccurate? We know that the righthand instrument panel is not recorded and the left hand one disp
85 Pihero : Then skim again, at 02:11:58 "J'ai un problème, c'est que je n'ai plus de vario... Je n'ai plus aucune indication" which translates as : " I have a
86 spacecadet : That's beyond the limits of the system, and frankly beyond the point at which the pilots should have recognized and properly reacted to the stall war
87 javibi : Don't they train the relief F/O's at AF to fly from the left seat those failures than can't be flown from the right seat (e.g: ELEC EMER CONF)? Thank
88 TaromA380 : No problemo. Don't take it personally, I am a pax, I don't care about pilot's fetiches, I care about safety, security rules must improve, they always
89 pylon101 : With all due respect to Pihero , AF pilots and other AF staff I should say that this is not a closed union forum. So far we are waiting for English tr
90 airtechy : I don't understand the lack of vertical speed indication. That and the altitude indications should not have been affected by the frozen pitots as thei
91 UALWN : It seems to me that this is pretty damning for the co-pilots (and, I guess for AF): "L’enquête a mis en évidence des faiblesses des deux copilotes
92 wolbo : Edit: removed link to English version of the report. Was interim report no.2. not no.3.[Edited 2011-07-29 12:25:16]
93 rfields5421 : I'm not sure. This stall with the very high AOA and huge descent FPM is quite different from what pilots experience in flight school and recurrent tr
94 rfields5421 : I have not yet read the full Interim Report #3 in English, but, 1 - Defense of the Flight Crew - In my opinion - this is substantially a reaction to
95 UALWN : According to the excerpt of the report that I quoted above, the PNF should have been monitoring the altitude (among other things), so that he should
96 Post contains links cosmofly : A further report carried by Seattlepi. http://www.seattlepi.com/news/articl...ir-France-crash-1633232.php#page-2 French pilot union points to stall wa
97 Pihero : That's apparently the case. the actions seem to be too definite to be random stick manipulation. I say it again a bit more clearly, although it might
98 XT6Wagon : Wings only care about airspeed. Given enough headwind you can have a negative groundspeed while still remaining in flight. Ususaly only light aircraf
99 Post contains images eisenbach : merci ktir, but I am really quiet sure the OS pilots I know, told me that they train high alt stall. But I will ask again - I am willing to learn I r
100 WingedMigrator : I'd even go further: there's a good chance that no A330 had ever been flown at such high alpha. These were completely uncharted flight conditions tha
101 Post contains images rcair1 : No. Presuming you are talking about having a GPS in the nose and tail - and measuring the difference in altitude reported by them. Using this and the
102 Pihero : A poster on the other site tried a translation of the CVR print-out, mostly good, with a few inaccuracies that I corrected ( he's a French speaker liv
103 UALWN : Am I right in interpreting that "vitesse de fou" here means crazy-high speed?
104 YULWinterSkies : Well, me to, but how is this going to help pilots to recover from a stall situation that they are not aware of? or in this case, not clearly aware of
105 Pihero : That's about the maximum we do... and we do it. This # 3 interim report goes as far reporting the respective trainings of the three pilots on aspects
106 Pihero : Absolutely right.
107 Centre : I agree, working is a pilot is a job that you are paid for; just like many other work places were everything is monitored for a reason. You are sitti
108 rfields5421 : Thank you - especially since we probably will not see an English translation of the report until Tuesday. Very scary to read.
109 Post contains links YYZatcboy : Thought this might be of interest: When Aircraft is stalled, direct from AIB • FIRST: AoAMUST BE REDUCED • Release back pressure on stick or colum
110 Centre : With all due respect to those who lost their lives in the crash; I have the following humble comments to make: 1) Why did they fly into the storm rat
111 spacecadet : This is what we've been waiting for - there is a lot of information in this transcript. This particular exchange here seems really significant to me,
112 rfields5421 : They did alter their course to go around what they saw as the worst weather. From page 2 of the Note released today
113 Post contains images Kaiarahi : I don't know what flying experience you have, but recovering from a stall in a large transport category jet at high altitudes bears no resemblance to
114 flood : The key words in the article being no nose-down inputs were made in an attempt "to recover". Throughout the incident, they remained at a positive ang
115 Kaiarahi : They did look at the attitude, but it doesn't tell you that you're in a stall. You can be in a stall at any attitude. They did look at altitude - but
116 rcair1 : AoA is not displayed in this aircraft AFAIK. I believe it is an option that can be added, but is not typically. So you must infer AoA from other read
117 rfields5421 : From the Safety Recommendations Note Pretty significant in my opinion. Of course though BEA is an investigative agency which can only recommend chang
118 AirCalSNA : Sorry if this is a dumb question (I'm just an enthusiast and not a pilot), but does anyone have a clear sense of exactly what instruments or systems w
119 Post contains links Centre : As said earlier Listening to US1549 ATC exchange, you can feel the level of confidence the captain had after loosing thrust in both engines. In his si
120 LTBEWR : We know other a/c were within a relatively few miles of AF447, in the same storm and didn't lose control or crash. Does this interim report have any c
121 ComeAndGo : The report states in "Phase 2: from disconnection of the autopilot to the triggering of the stall warning": - the copilots had received no high altit
122 Amsterdam : Doesn't the report say that 13 other crews have handled a similiar situation successfully? Why have the investigators put this in the report?
123 Kaiarahi : No.
124 rfields5421 : The reports with that information were the July 2009 and December 2009 reports. There were only 13 reports of pitot icing analyzed in detail because
125 Post contains links rfields5421 : The basic information in other reports is that about 1/2 of the aircraft crossing the region that night made some slight course changes to avoid the
126 cpqi : I'm just a passenger living in Brazil and frequently crossing the ITCZ so I have a strong interest in this investigation. I always believed that the j
127 canoecarrier : I sincerely hope you stay around. Your knowledge and opinion is appreciated. And, I don't just mean when it comes to translating french documents int
128 comorin : Begging the indulgence of the aviation professionals on this thread, and with the greatest respect of the brave crew of AF447, given the TOGA and pitc
129 justloveplanes : Understand your concerns. I share them. I hope rational processes will be implemented to prevent another occorrence. However I still think (statistic
130 rfields5421 : Pitch up and power is the CORRECT procedure for the initial event - the loss of air speed data. Several other aircrews have successfully done that in
131 rfields5421 : One important difference to remember in the US1549 and BA38 incidents is that those crews never faced varying and conflicting instrument readings. Th
132 bellancacf : I keep focussing on certain bits of information that do not seem to have been contradicted yet: 1) AF447 came down at a glide slope of about 45 degree
133 comorin : I'm much obliged that you took the time to explain the realities in detail. A great and considered post, thank you.
134 Post contains images Mir : Try and recover from a high altitude stall like you do in a Cessna at 4,000 feet and you'll find yourself in a secondary stall very quickly. The whol
135 VS11 : What's the programmatic logic for a stall warning to get triggered? If airspeed is involved, which the pilots knew was unreliable, could they have di
136 GBan : We agree on what GPS cannot tell anything about. But I still think that a reliable alternate pitch indication (from GPS) might have made evident to t
137 litz : Actually, GPS could give you a vital clue : fore-aft variances will give you your pitch angle ... and a rapid change in altitude coupled with the pitc
138 airtechy : I find this statement very interesting... and scary. As it seems this type stall is very difficult or impossible to reproduce in a simulator....and I
139 Post contains images javibi : Possibly Where do you get that from? To my knowledge when level at high altitude it is best to stay cool and not change the pitch. Simulators are use
140 spacecadet : You're talking about looking at both instruments independently. I'm talking about looking at them together to get a picture of what's happening, as a
141 astuteman : And they had daylight and visual references..... "The aircraft design did not"? With specific reference to your point, for the sake of propriety, thi
142 kiwiandrew : I believe you are correct. People often have difficulty distinguishing between AoA and pitch ( certainly have over the years) , but they are complete
143 airlineecon : After the fact, it seems pretty clear that the pitot tube icing caused the loss of air speed indication. What causes for the loss of airspeed indicat
144 pylon101 : A high speed dive with 16 degrees pitch calls "stall". Agreed. Adding AoA indicator may worsen man-machine interaction as in emergency situation pilo
145 giopan1975 : You do not need to get that far mate.....Basic airmanship skills should be able to identify a stall situation. No one of the three discussed the posi
146 slinky09 : The short answer is yes, it could have been recoverable, but 'should have' depends on lots of factors, as people say. The report points out that at n
147 robffm2 : Thanks rcair1 for making this clear and your detailed explanation.
148 GBan : Yes, but 12° pitch up with high vertical down speed should be enough information to know that the aircraft is rather in a stall than in a nose dive.
149 Kaiarahi : Ironically, one of the best potential indicators of the situation they were in is mechanical and not on the displays - essentially you can only see t
150 Aesma : But that would kind of defeat the point in my opinion. The purpose of a camera would be to know what the pilot were seeing, not what the system tried
151 Pihero : Another scoop for A.net ( and from someone who is suspected of non-objectivity, no less ! ) First see this extract from the BEA's recommandations :"L
152 UALWN : But they had the power set to TOGA, and they did mention "but we've got the engines ("on a pourtant les moteurs"), meaning, I guess, that they though
153 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Quick summary: PF (right seat): ATP, August 2007; A330 type-rating, December 2008 PNF (left seat): ATP, April, 2001; A330 type-rating, October 2002
154 Pihero : IMO, that sentence shows, more than anything that the characteristics af a TOGA selection at high altitude wasn't understood : low accel and not a lo
155 Kaiarahi : Yeah, I know. I was responding to a suggestion that the stall should have been easily recognizable because it's the only situation which would "allow
156 fotoflyer71 : Hi again Pihero, Can you speculate as to what the vertical speed problem might have been given other data that has been released so far (ACARS etc)?
157 GBan : Yes, I was referring to the question if GPS could provide useful information. Some say no, because there are a lot of informations GPS cannot provide
158 UALWN : I understand, but what I meant is that they did know they were not gliding, therefore indeed a stall should have been the only explanation left.[Edit
159 Kaiarahi : More complete information (from the first interim report): Captain: ATPL February 1992; A330 type-rating October, 2006; A330 hours 1,747; Sth America
160 Kaiarahi : The CVR would indicate that they didn't systematically "know" or "not know" anything. At one point, the PF seemed to think they were in an overspeed
161 Pihero : The only explanation is that the SFO / PNF had accepted the loss of # 2 ADIRU Navigation parameters and wanted to use only the *ATTitude* part of the
162 justloveplanes : This thread is very long some my apologies for injecting something probably already discussed. The pitchup was excessive and that caused the stall? (P
163 comorin : Mir, thanks for your clarifications. Apologies if this has been answered before - I presume the pitch information was always known to the crew since
164 Mir : Nothing wrong with that. In fact, there are advantages to that setup. I've seen nothing to indicate that any attitude data was lost. -Mir
165 Post contains images rcair1 : While pilot error clearly contributed, I'm more concerned about what caused 3 experienced pilots make the error. Which actually may exacerbate the pr
166 rfields5421 : Thank you - this is an important piece of information which now puts a great many things into perspective. I believe all along everyone though the PF
167 Kaiarahi : I'm not sure. The PF (right) lost descent rate indication at 2:11:58. There were no descent rate call-outs by the PNF. The PF requested altitude at 2
168 Post contains images rfields5421 : An excellent point. Another point we have to remember is that this was a TWO emergency event. The Loss of Air Speed Data event and the Stall. Again a
169 bellancacf : Something like the general statement that you are looking for is in the preceding paragraph: I wrote that as though I knew for a fact that no commerc
170 Mir : I'm not convinced. If you know you just had a malfunction of your air data probes, are you really inclined to trust an extreme reading of an air data
171 UALWN : I haven't been able to find this in the transcript. Where do you see it? I only see: "J’ai un problème c’est que j’ai plus de vario là" ("I h
172 ULMFlyer : Mir, could I politely ask you to expand on this? I've never flown a Cessna, so I'd be interested in understanding what you'd do on one that would lea
173 aerodog : Yes and in all probability any of the three could have recovered from the stall condition had it been recognized. So I would conclude there is someth
174 javibi : I am afraid those actions you are referring to (pitch up and power) are only applicable at low altitudes/climb, not in cruise. Cheers, j
175 ULMFlyer : Regarding the separate AoA indicator recommendation and discussion herein, it is my understanding that the difference between pitch and the FPV provid
176 474218 : While I don't disagree that the crew did not exhibit the best airmanship skills I do I two questions: How can a pilot be allowed to fly an aircraft th
177 UALWN : The co-pilot put the airplane outside its flight envelope with his inputs. The protections that prevent this from happening are not available in Alte
178 spacecadet : Which they knew they were not in. The PF says he feels they are flying at "crazy speed". To me that sounds like he thinks they're overspeeding. He al
179 UALWN : Yes, he says "J’ai l’impression qu’on a une vitesse de fou", which I would translate as "I have the impression that we have a crazy high speed"
180 474218 : Why not?
181 BackSeater : What seems a bit unfair is that an Autopilot completely gives up after detecting incoherent inputs. Ok, it cannot keep its promise of heading, altitud
182 UALWN : By design. You get in Alternate Law when something isn't working properly, so the computer cannot compute the variables needed to enforce the protect
183 cyloncat : Exactly. If I were investigating this accident, I'd want to go back through those other 14 incidents of pitot freezing where pilots were able to reco
184 CALTECH : A tragedy that a flawed Pitot Probe design brought this airliner down. The Pitot Probes began the sequence of events that came together and culminated
185 474218 : But that is backwards, when things aren't working correctly you want all the control you get. So it is not that stall protection was not available, b
186 AeroVega : My thoughts exactly. Furthermore, if the pilots are now supposed to fly the plane following strict procedures, why can the autopilot not be programme
187 rfields5421 : The reason the aircraft autopilot and autothrottle shuts off and the aircraft Flight Envelope Protections as minimized is that with the loss of air s
188 airtechy : I still find it hard to believe that any large jet would not be recoverable from any type of stall.....given enough altitude. At this altitude, they d
189 cylw : Not sure why the PF initially applied nose up inputs. Was he trying to climb to get out of the icing? Here is another thing that sticks out to me. Fro
190 BackSeater : I appreciate the difficulty of managing an aircraft when the authority is presented with conflicting data. But the situation seems to be "let the com
191 LTC8K6 : Perhaps the A/P should not drop out, but give a warning to the crew and hold it's settings? After all, these pitot tube icing incidents generally seem
192 BEG2IAH : First off, Pihero, rfields5421, Kaiarahi, and Mir, thanks for all your great posts. I think this must have been the most confusing of all warnings/rea
193 winterapfel : What about the possibility to have the AP fly pitch and power in case of air speed indicator error, instead of the pilots?
194 Pihero : Looking at the transcript, you would be hard pressed to keep on holding to that opinion. Not in this case.
195 Kaiarahi : "vario" is the term for the rate of climb/descent indicator. "J'ai plus aucune indication" translates as "I don't have any [instrument] data any more
196 cosmofly : Even with all the mistakes, if the 60kt stall warning shutoff design flaw is not there, would the pilots have saved the plane? AF seems to think so.
197 BackSeater : Sorry, but in French slang, "descendre a fond" is to go as fast as one can go, to the max, pedal to the metal., .... So he meant "speed" and "so fast
198 LTC8K6 : I don't think it can do that without good data. Unless it is able to default to a fixed pitch/power setting.
199 be77 : I agree - if the pilots are expected to recevoer in those conditions (which of course they are, and countless have done so over the last 100 years) t
200 BackSeater : In French, "vitesse de fou" usually means "crazy speed", meaning way too fast.
201 Kaiarahi : 35 years of working in French suggests to me it's not so self evident. The other thing not to be forgotten is that what was said has a context - what
202 kiwiandrew : I have been reluctant to post this partly because I know enough to know that I am not qualified in this area, and partly because my question is fundam
203 workhorse : In this case, unlikely. If he wanted to say "foolish speed" he would say something like "vitesse qui ressemble à rien", "n'importe quoi comme vitess
204 AirCalSNA : Can you explain this point a bit further? I thought that the fundamental rule among pilots is to increase power and point the nose down when there's
205 par13del : One reason may be they knew they were in a stall? Based on my understanding of the various discussion on the AP I would suggest a third option, maint
206 spacecadet : It didn't. It was recoverable. The pilots didn't recover it.
207 workhorse : Sorry, I might have missed something in the thread, but these words make it look like if PF did not have anything on the Primary Flight Display (no a
208 spacecadet : My reading of it is that they didn't trust the primary instruments, so were referring to the backups as confirmation. Other times in the transcript,
209 Pihero : That"s one of the poiunts the BEA needs to look at very carefully : we don't know what instruments / flight data were available on the right hand sea
210 474218 : A few more random thoughts that maybe someone could help me understand: I find it amazing that never once did I read that the crew looked any document
211 Mir : If I'm not mistaken, the FPV is not always shown on the PFD - the pilots have to make it show up. It may be that it was never on the screen. Yes, but
212 Pihero : We seem to have some translation problems and interpretation issues. : That's modern slang and as a matter of use, nowadays, it's teen-agers' slang wh
213 474218 : I may be old and not up to date on the latest technology but when it comes to flying I believe the last line of protection should be in the hands of
214 Mir : Which it is. -Mir
215 UALWN : Because there was no data available to the computers to decide if a stall warning was merited or not. Of course they were. Exactly. And humans are mu
216 rfields5421 : The crash of the NZ aircraft during testing demonstrated why that 'fundamental rule' doesn't work with some aircraft. Adding power in aircraft such a
217 Areopagus : The problem with that is that, once the aircraft has reached its terminal velocity (i.e., not accelerating) in a falling stall, the pressure differen
218 airtechy : In this case, they didn't need protections....they needed basic wings level attitude control.... something autopilots have done since they were first
219 Post contains links 474218 : Not according to the following: http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/note29juillet2011.en.pdf "The co-pilots had received no high altitude trai
220 Kaiarahi : Rubbish. He said: "J'ai plus aucune indication". True, but consider the context. PF: J'ai un problème c'est que j'ai plus de VARIO là. Captain: D'a
221 Kaiarahi : Actually, most military pilots are taught nose down and 50+ degree roll to break a deep stall in a large transport aircraft.
222 N49WA : A quick question that me be naive or irrelevant. Where A330/340 pilots aware that the Thales tubes could be unreliable and scheduled for replacement?
223 airtechy : My remark was directed at how the autopilot should have behaved at the first sign of airspeed error and well before the stall. Your point is interest
224 Post contains links MD-90 : In this pilot's opinion on PPRUNE once the stall was aggravated by continual pitch-up inputs it might have become non-recoverable for the average pilo
225 stuYYZ : Captain's Last Words, I'm a bit suprised no one has commented on the Captain's last words. "(Dix) degrés d’assiette" - or 10 degrees of trim (If i'
226 awthompson : Because it's not as simple as fitting a pressure sensor underneath a wing and one above a wing; where exactly to you fit a it? Pressure varies all ov
227 par13del : I think the point of the question was if the crew knew that they had "suspect" tubes installed or not, the thought being that there initial response
228 Post contains images jfernandez : My two (worthless) cents here - this brings about a challenging question of what to do in (basically) an IFR situation where the pilots have no idea w
229 airtechy : I know there are many ways to determine aircraft ground speed, but does a technology exist that could replace the pitot tube for determining airspeed?
230 Pihero : Unffortunately, the speedbrakes positions are not on the graphs (or Ihaven't found them. They were deployed by PF but immediately PNF says "Non, surt
231 bellancacf : Exactly. And if there's anything that the airfoil designers have studied well, it's the pressure distribution under the variety of conditions you des
232 Aesma : But that would kind of defeat the point in my opinion. The purpose of a camera would be to know what the pilot were seeing, not what the system tried
233 474218 : I seem to remember a picture of a spoiler that was recovered from the ocean surface, that had been torn from the wing, either on impact or in flight.
234 UALWN : I don't interpret it like this. The PF is just talking about speed, all the time. He doesn't have any speed readings, that's all. He believes he's in
235 spacecadet : Because if it wasn't, then this aircraft should never have been certified by the FAA for flight. The FAA requires under FAR Part 25 that "it must be
236 Post contains images GBan : I think you really have to look at the context, at 2 h 11 min 58 he said: PF: "J’ai un problème c’est que j’ai plus de vario là" NPF: "D'acco
237 SSTsomeday : I agree, which is why I hesitate to speculate on errors that the crew made. It seems they were being given a lot of conflicting information and had d
238 rfields5421 : Here is a thought which came to me at work tonight. Several times he talks about speed being 'crazy' or 'too fast', etc. What if he is talking about V
239 Post contains links CALTECH : Wouldn't call it a design flaw. It seems to have added to the confusion in this case. A perfect storm. Reading over the partial transcript, it seems
240 cosmofly : I am not so sure about their ignoring the stall warning. Keeping the nose up seems to keep the plane at a "stable" stall at less than 60kt speed, thu
241 giopan1975 : In the case of loss of airspeed due to probe problem, history shows that average time duration of events last 2-3 on average. In 447 case, the proble
242 Pihero : There seems to ba a lot of interpreters on A.net and some attempts are a bit of a fantasy. One has to understand a fdew things here : It's professiona
243 UALWN : Yes, that's what I meant. But after this comment, the speed brakes were deployed by the PF, while the PNF immediately said "non, surtout ne ne (les)
244 par13del : I would agree with that depending on what one is attempting to accomplish, as I can see area's where the CVR is more important. Everone agrees that t
245 bellancacf : I wonder if the speaker is reacting to buffeting vibrations. However, instead of being buffeting caused by straight-ahead velocity, the buffeting, if
246 rfields5421 : Thank you. It was just a thought/ question.
247 PanAm1971 : My best friend is a captain for a major US airline. He says stick and rudder skills deteriorate unless you find a way to get some hands on time in. Of
248 jfernandez : Was the PF inputting nose-up inputs the entire time? If so, I'm talking about these exchanges specifically: If despite that entire conversation the P
249 bellancacf : DOES THIS SITE HAVE MODERATORS? PLEASE READ ... I've noticed that now and then quoted material is attributed to the incorrect post. Here is how it hap
250 UALWN : I agree. But, from that exchange, how can you deduce that the PNF thinks the PF is actually issuing nose-down commands? In any case, a quick glance a
251 bellancacf : The topic of iced-up pitot tubes recurs. Question: If AF447 was in a 45 degree, nose-up descent, then the airflow at the pitot tube entry was coming f
252 Pihero : Altitude flying is not difficult and, contrarily to the common thinking here, it is practiced. Not difficult doesn't mean that one doesn't give a few
253 PanAm1971 : First off I want to thank you for your very insightful posts. I've learned a lot. Can you sum up your thoughts on the correct response to this accide
254 UALWN : So the summary so far could be something like this? a) Pitot tubes ice up, generating an "Unreliable Air Speed" (UAS) situation. b) Pitch-up inputs b
255 David L : But the PNF and Captain seemed to know and kept telling him to do the opposite. I'll leave the CRM issues to those with the experience and I'll avoid
256 LTC8K6 : Why isn't their first thought, "Oh, we've got pitots icing up and so we've lost the airspeed readings." They know their altitude and the weather they
257 comorin : From a legal point of view, this does not look good for AF or AB. What do you think? 1. Airbus: Airspeed indication fail - insufficient redundancy, wo
258 varig md-11 : I am no pilot but I think what you write is interesting. Reading the French text and its subtleties I have the bothering feeling they were not aware
259 David L : As ever, I'm open to correction but it doesn't seem to me like they got much beyond recognising that they had some faulty indications. During the sta
260 David L : Doesn't the Airbus stall warning include an audio message of "STALL"? I don't think the issue is about it being the same as a different warning but t
261 pylon101 : Pihero, Thanks for taking part in this discussion. And right, the recovery would need very agressive actions. I am wondering what recommendations are
262 rfields5421 : To answer your basic question - the pitot would be capable of measuring what air speed was flowing across the wings. One other point - the aircraft N
263 GIOPAN1975 : I do not think it should be of highest importance to the crew whether the pitots malfunctioned because of icing or because they got blocked by insect
264 LTC8K6 : Yes, they seem to just be mystified for the most part. I was just thinking that if they had thought it was pitot icing, they would have realized it w
265 LTC8K6 : I see. I am Monday morning quarterbacking, I guess. Thanks.
266 varig md-11 : Synthetic voice "stall stall" plus red master warning light: but from what I understood it would activate for loss of air data AND/OR real stall The
267 AirbusA370 : There were two events of loss of airspeed. The first lasted less than one minute and was the one likely caused by pitot tube icing.. The second one l
268 AirlineCritic : I do not think this necessarily means he has lost vertical speed indication. It could also mean that he does not trust the vertical speed indication.
269 UALWN : The thing is that they don't seem to have been executed properly...
270 UALWN : I agree. The comparison with the transcript of the US1540 accident hurts.
271 Post contains images CALTECH : At night in the clouds and over the ocean on top of all that, with what seemed to be a aircraft that was flying in level flight, would go against hum
272 Post contains images David L : I'd be interested in the response because that's my take on it so far, as well. Fair point. I was really just addressing any accusations that they we
273 rfields5421 : You point out something positive about this entire terrible crash. Some people talk about a need for more/ different training - especially journalist
274 rcair1 : Or they did not stall. The 'initial condition' was loss of IAS due to iced pitot tubes. I do not know of any other situations where they have stalled
275 AirCalSNA : I've been doing legal defense work for 20+ years, although more in the areas of business disputes rather than torts (negligence). Based on what I've
276 rfields5421 : "Stall" never seriously entered the investigation discussion until May 2011 that I remember. Initially the discussions considered loss of control and
277 varig md-11 : True, it struck me too the way the captain said various times "mets tes ailes a plats!" to the PF So it means CPT realized AOA was not satisfactory a
278 Post contains images David L : I took that to mean "wings level", as in correcting any bank angle, however my French is only just about good enough to buy rail tickets and food and
279 bellancacf : From the tail of the "History of Flight" text in the 27 May 2011 BEA report, just to be sure we're on the same page: "last recorded values were a ver
280 Post contains images jfernandez : This is ultimately the question which (in my opinion) determines what really happened to AF447 once the stall situation began. Either: 1) The PNF and
281 Post contains images varig md-11 : Well that's a good start if you don't believe every beret-bearer ought to be speaking Anglais and you try some Frenchie Considering the PF was pulling
282 Pihero : In normal law, yes. But it's a silly publicity blurb. Nothing more. Yes, for the apparent factors. I will never go that far that quickly. There must
283 MD11Engineer : It seems that testing an aircraft´s behaviour in a fullblown deep stall (especially at altitude) is advisable only in aircraft equipped with ejectio
284 Autothrust : Just a ignorant question: When the plane was in stall, wouldn't the deployement of the Flaps reduced the AoA as the wing surface would be bigger. Mayb
285 Post contains images eisenbach : As far as I know, Boeing FBW aircrafts give "aerodynamical" feedback - but the question is, if a 777 looses basic input data like speed, how would it
286 Pihero : OK, here is the translation of the CVR transcript. I went for equivalent colloquialisms instead of a litteral translatiuon and I'd be quite willing to
287 awthompson : I think you might have something there! I wouldn't be surprised if something like this is designed in the future. Am I correct in thinking that these
288 mandala499 : I've been reading the report, and I don't need to be fluent in French to see the FDR readings in various parts of the report (especially the end). Mer
289 UALWN : Is it clear that all these sentences are in the imperative tense ("Descend!') and not just in normal present tense ("You're descending")? Wouldn't on
290 ADent : True, but with computational aerodynamics you can get pretty close. Of course a standard simulator won't bother to get every non-linear, way out of t
291 awthompson : I'll not quote your full translation again or this post will become much too long. Your translation is very interesting and likely not far off what w
292 EPA001 : A fantastic post Mandala499. This gives me better insight in what might have happened here. Also I would like to thank Pihero for his great contribut
293 par13del : Based on Pihero's translation and your summary they would first have to identified the situation before they could initiate the proper escape procedu
294 Post contains links CALTECH : Thanks for this. So hurtful to read. Kindly disagree with your disagreement, Thales, Airbus and EASA all have asked and mandated that the faulty Thal
295 Pihero : At last ! the cavalry has arrived ! I was afraid you hadn't recovered from North African food ! What I wanted to stress was the difference between wh
296 rfields5421 : This quote is not CALTECH - but from the article he quoted. Which is more interesting because in the July 2009 Interim Report The December 2009 Interi
297 AirCalSNA : That translated CVR transcript is chilling. The pilots were either insufficiently trained/seasoned or the cockpit culture/chain of command was dysfunc
298 Pihero : How a fresh pair of eyes can change the whole outlook ! Thanks, Mandala499 for your input. It's rather late and I spent a good while reading / assessi
299 frmrCapCadet : Could the computer, from available data (the intermittent airspeed and loss of altitude), have warned the crew that they were in an unusual sort of st
300 Post contains images bellancacf : I used to use 2-sided transducers made by Validyne, which were a metal diaphragm sandwiched between the two halves of a steel "hockey puck" with rece
301 Post contains images bellancacf : Have I missed some crucially important event? *WHAT* ignition?! Had they lost the engines? ... and so on ... How I wish that PNF had been more explic
302 airtechy : Understanding the pitch angle as 10-15 degrees and true angle of attack as 45 degrees or so, is there a possibility that the engines could have suffer
303 MarcoPoloWorld : Exactly. And that right there should put to sleep any nonsense being propagated by some people here (mostly just one individual actually) about "deep
304 airtechy : With the autopilot disconnected, would the trim have been centered...or does the 330 even have trim tabs? Somewhere I seem to have read that the plan
305 rfields5421 : From the May 27, 2011 Note - I will quote only the parts of each item which apply to your question: WARNING - this is from the May 27 Note - I am not
306 georgewall42 : Thank you for this. I agree that it is time to end talk about this being "unrecoverable". It is clear from the reports and CVR translations that no a
307 bellancacf : Thanks for responding. So, right around the critical 2 h 10 min 40 time, when backextrapolation suggests the pancake stall started, two IASes agreed
308 bellancacf : Coming down at 45 degrees, so 2^0.5 * 107 kt = ca. 150 kt airspeed, for all the good it did them[Edited 2011-07-31 20:58:39]
309 ruscoe : As I understanf it the Airbus system averages the inputs if both pilots make inputs at the same time. This can be overridden by a button I am told. I
310 eisenbach : The enginges were working all the time - I know you use ingnition if you fear a flame out, like in heavy rain - maybe the feared a flame out due to s
311 GIOPAN1975 : Well yes but I would have to stick with experts' opinion that kind of stall must have been very difficult to recover from even from its very start. I
312 huxrules : Who else thinks that Airbus should make a A330 with ejection seats and only Alternate Law and then do some actual training over the desert somewhere.
313 AirlineCritic : More importantly, they should have spoken *to each other*. The lack of explicit notification about their perceived situation, the actions they were t
314 BackSeater : In an earlier post, I was reminded that Autopilots are “DUMB” and that only pilots can “THINK” to best solve the problem at hand when the AP g
315 David L : I get the impression that the dual inputs were brief and the PF relinquished control fairly promptly. The PNF and Captain were apparently sufficientl
316 Kaiarahi : Thank you - this is what I was trying to find words for yesterday, when some posters were insisting it meant "so fast". They weren't speaking to us o
317 Post contains links rfields5421 : The Interim Report #3 is not available in English yet. The original French is here - http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601e3/pdf/f-cp090601e3.pdf
318 bellancacf : Yes, I guess that I am going to have to learn how to read and interpret those more than 100 pages from scratch. I admit freely that I am reacting to
319 par13del : So the pilot made an error, why exactly would he pull the a/c up into a stall, but then you follw up with. So now did AF make an error and not train
320 bellancacf : MODERATORS --- Perhaps this is just my system this AM, but the "From " and "RR:" fields in the post headers are empty in this and at least three other
321 Pihero : Bullsmell ! The stall is such an undemonstrated zone that to this day, there is still quite a lot of disagreement on the definition of "stall speed"
322 tdscanuck : Yet this is exactly what happened in the Colgan and Turkish Airlines crashes...totally different aircraft, totally different control systems, totally
323 rfields5421 : When the May 27 Note showed that the aircraft fell that far basically stable - a lot of pilots of heavy transport aircraft said - "Impossible, it has
324 Pihero : Super post ! Welcome back, Tom ! as we need your expertise.
325 rfields5421 : Have you ever driven an automobile on ice or rain and hit the brake and put the car into a slide? Despite all the knowledge and instruction in the pa
326 UALWN : I don't see the nose-down part in the report: 2h10min05: "Le P/A2 se désengage. L’angle de roulis passe de 0 à 8,4° en 2 secondes alors que le m
327 Post contains images Kaiarahi : As Marshall McLuhan said "I'll see it when I believe it". Point taken. However, the PF (right seat) had only been type-rated since December, 2008 (5-
328 Post contains images rfields5421 : That is what I was seeing as a nose-down movement. The May Note mentions the pitch a little before that is 2.5 degrees nose-up. The manual pages post
329 Kaiarahi : 0 degrees is a pitch down from cruise. Not so much:
330 UALWN : Been there, done that, felt utterly stupid when talking to the insurance guys afterwards... I can understand this better in the Colgan and Turkish ac
331 UALWN : Still small compared with the 13 deg nose-up attitude the plane ended up after 20 seconds. If the goal was to compensate for those 2 deg of decrease
332 Post contains links awthompson : One could debate the BAW038 crew actions possibly but it seems that you are thinking of a different BA056 incident. The one I refer to was the closes
333 Pihero : No, and that's one of their problems.
334 Kaiarahi : That's what I thought. So there's an inexperienced FO flying from the right seat, a very experienced FO sitting in the left seat, but not trained to
335 Pihero : You're right, I hadn't seen this one. But, once again, it was an easily identifiable predicament, for which we train ad nauseam, especially on microb
336 Pihero : He had enough self confidence to disregard both. The way he shut off PNF with the priority button is pretty much the sum of his personality.
337 Pihero : As a final note to this aspect, the new AirFrance SOP call for the senior F/O to be the captain's relief and to exercise command from the left-hand s
338 BackSeater : Sorry, in that post I was not implying automation, just computerized observation and running of sanity checks by the computers in the background. So,
339 UALWN : Then, after reaching 3000 ft, he would say: HAL: I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. Oh please, I hope not. I'm one of those who can spend hours at a time
340 giopan1975 : Was there enough time to rotate to that screen?
341 MD11Engineer : I knew the captain, who saved the FR 737-800 from crashing into a neighbourhood in CIA after the aircraft suffered multiple birdstrikes leading to a
342 BackSeater : That's a cheap shot. We are talking about cruise level, e.g. over 30,000ft. Remember, altitude was known. What is the slowest ground speed you have e
343 Post contains images mandala499 : Well, when your airspeed goes funny sharply, the right alarm bells that should have been ringing in the head is "unreliable airspeed"... Now, for the
344 UALWN : It was actually a lame attempt of a joke. What you wrote actually seems reasonable to me.
345 bellancacf : It struck me an hour ago that I was being incredibly dense.There is no mystery about bleeding off speed. They are in a high-drag attitude, with the e
346 Post contains images rcair1 : Or the man-machine interface failed to maintain communications between the pilots and the machine. They did not understand what the machine was doing
347 UALWN : However, in a FBW airplane the tactile sensation is artificially generated from the same sensors that produce the numbers and pictures in the screens
348 airtechy : Tactile feedback is one thing...having the joysticks track is another. I'm not sure about the first as it would have to be artificially generated and
349 eisenbach : I repeat my question - how can a FBW plane provide haptic feedback, when essential data like the speed is missing. How would for example the 777 reac
350 Post contains images mandala499 : Well, if you're falling with constant G, you're experiencing 1G sensation and are in a 1G trajectory. They were falling initially at an average less
351 casinterest : I wonder what "time" the crews minds were operating under . Most folks naturally have a lower awareness at certain times of day, mostly during the ni
352 Aesma : I'm not a pilot (yet) but am French. I read "Tu redescends" and other commands as being commands, orders, or at least suggestions. In French it would
353 par13del : In SD one has to rely on one's instruments and not body / mental feeling to properly recover an a/c, the AP disengaged because of some issue, PF and
354 UALWN : Actually I think the reason had been identified: 9 seconds after the A/P disengaged they start this conversation: PF: On n’a pas une bonne... On n
355 s5daw : -why did Pf think they were overspeeding? Doesn't dirt in pitot tube result in dropped IAS? Whay indicated icreased speed and why? - why did Pnf and C
356 canoecarrier : I'd like to take the spreadsheet that Mandela or you put together with the altitude and inputs plotted against time and add a column for the three pi
357 rcair1 : I was referring to the tactile/visual feedback from coupling the sidesticks so that when one pilot provides input, the other feels/sees it. That is n
358 UALWN : But my question remains: apparently the PF didn't trust the instruments, even when they were displaying correct information, why would he trust the f
359 rcair1 : And that is a good question. It is not so much that he would "trust them more" than that he may react differently - start a different process. Tactil
360 airtechy : I understand this....what prevents the glitch...i.e. an instantaneous jump to the new joystick position?
361 tdscanuck : A 777 uses an adjustable rate spring...in the event of no valid speed feedback, you'd have some level of default feel but there's no physical way to
362 Post contains links LipeGIG : As this thread become too long (with +350 posts), please continue the discussion on the following thread: AF447 Disaster: A New Report On 07/29 - Part
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