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How Long Did Northeast Fleet Last With Delta?  
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Posted (3 years 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5504 times:

Self explanatory.

Seems like NE aircraft weren't around too long. How many aircraft came into DL fleet?

FH-227, DC-9-30, 727-100, 727-200.....is that it? Were the CV880s gone by then?

When was each type retired? Obviously with the -200, I'm only referring to the NE birds, not DL's entire 727-200 fleet


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Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2544 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5467 times:

The FH-227 were gone by 1975 to Air NE. The 9's were also gone by 1975 to Allegheny and Ozark. The 727-100 were operated until 1977. I don't have any info about the others. This all came from R.E.G. Davies Delta history book.

User currently offlinebdl2stl2pvg From China, joined Jun 2006, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5291 times:

The 727-200s lasted longer. DL ordered their first 727-232s right before the NE merger. They kept the NE -295s (plus 2 -291s) into the early 80s. It appears that when PI was expanding in the mid 1980s they picked up at least some of the NE birds and that was also about the time DL started receiving its first 737-200s.

User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5125 times:

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 1):
They kept the NE -295s (plus 2 -291s) into the early 80s.

I know........I hated cleaning the cabins on them when I first got to SLC. They had those damn "bullet" ashtrays in the armrests in coach. What a pain those were.


The pilots didn't like the -295s, either. We had a midnight flight....SLC-DEN-ATL.......the first thing the Captain would do would be to check the ship # to see if it was a 295 or 232. If it was a 295, he'd fly the SLC-DEN leg and have the FO fly the DEN-ATL leg because the a/c wasn't equipped with an autopilot.....handflying, all the way (at least that's what they told us).



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 23 hours ago) and read 4781 times:

Quoting bdl2stl2pvg (Reply 2):
It appears that when PI was expanding in the mid 1980s they picked up at least some of the NE birds
PI acquired 11 ex-Northeast 727-200s in 1982-83. They had previously taken 2 ex-Northeast 727-100s in 1977.

[Edited 2011-07-30 18:28:14]

User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 23 hours ago) and read 4766 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 3):
because the a/c wasn't equipped with an autopilot

Now, is this because the aircraft were non-avanced version? Was that the difference? So the pilots didn't want to FLY the airplane?  



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2544 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 month 22 hours ago) and read 4681 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 5):
Now, is this because the aircraft were non-avanced version? Was that the difference? So the pilots didn't want to FLY the airplane?

I'm not a pilot, but I heard the 727 was a lot of work to fly without an auto pilot.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 4588 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 5):
Now, is this because the aircraft were non-avanced version? Was that the difference? So the pilots didn't want to FLY the airplane?
Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 6):
I'm not a pilot, but I heard the 727 was a lot of work to fly without an auto pilot.

I'm not sure, but it certainly seems like the reason.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinecubastar From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 407 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 6):
I'm not a pilot, but I heard the 727 was a lot of work to fly without an auto pilot.

I flew quite a number of the Northeast 727's and I do not recall any that did not have autopilots. As to the 72 being "a lot of work" to fly manually, I never found that to be the case. In fact, I often hand flew many of the shorter legs just to keep my "hands on" feeling.

I often flew the shorter version (-100 or-90 something) on one of its longest legs- ATL-SAN nonstop, almost always fully loaded with pax and fuel. Quite a long roll on takeoff, particularly on a warm day.


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4068 times:

All 727s had autopilots. You can take that to the bank.

I personally found the 727 the easiest and most pleasant jetliner to fly in my career.


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3927 times:

I flew all of the ex-Northeast/Delta birds that came to Piedmont, including N1639, the very first -200 built. They all had the pneumatic pressurazation control of the -100 series, a real PITA for the F/E.

User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3902 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 9):
All 727s had autopilots. You can take that to the bank.

Then I guess the flight crews were feeding us a load of crap.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3844 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 10):
I fle all of the ex-Northeast/Delta birds that came to Piedmont, including N1639, the very first -200 built. They all had the pneumatic pressurazation control of the -100 series, a real PITA for the F/E.
Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 9):
All 727s had autopilots. You can take that to the bank.

I personally found the 727 the easiest and most pleasant jetliner to fly in my career.
Quoting mayor (Reply 11):
Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 9):
All 727s had autopilots. You can take that to the bank.

Then I guess the flight crews were feeding us a load of crap.

No kidding. I am no pilot, but it takes a lot of gullibility to believe that a Boeing airplane introduced in 1967 did not have an autopilot.

Someone above asked if the NE 880's were gone. Indeed they were, they were gone by earlier 1968 at Northeast, but Delta still had their full fleet of 16 including a replacement aircraft for the one lost at ATL in a training accident shortly after delivery, and they lasted until late 73 early 74, except the one written off when its tail was clipped by a North Central DC-9 at ORD in December 1972. When Storer Broadcasting bought Northeast in the mid 60's, they ordered a whole new fleet of aircraft getting rid of a fleet of DC-3's, DC-6B's and CV-880's, and replacing them with the airplanes Delta inherited in the merger. Delta acquired Northeast for one reason, so they could compete with Eastern between the Northeast population centers and Florida. Northeast had always been considered a trunk carrier but was really a local service airline that received its first medium distance route in 1956 from BOS-NYC-PHL-WAS to Florida, on a temporary basis. For the next ten years, Eastern and National continuously fought to have that temporary authority terminated, as they felt and were probably correct, that these routes did not need three carriers. While very lucrative during the winter months, during the summer, the routes were no bargain as Florida did not become a year round destination until Disney World opened in the early 70's. Eastern and National were not known for their service but Northeast was no better, and never really fully competed with either carrier. Interestingly, Delta signed a merger deal with Northeast in the mid 50's but it ran into CAB objections and was withdrawn. When NE received the 727's and DC-9's, they finally had a reasonable number of jet aircraft for their system, and they adopted the Yellowbird livery in an attempt to change their image.

As far as the 727-295's, I would like to hear more from Maxpower1954. Even though they were referred to as lead sleds by some, United ordered 28 of them and operated them out of DEN and SLC, and UA was always conscious of high and hot performance because of their large presence at both airports. Before deregulation, United was the largest carrier at SLC as well as at DEN.


User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2544 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3773 times:

There are a few pieces of equipment from the NE merger still in BOS. I think the jet tugs that appear in photos are still in service.

User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1056 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3684 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 3):
Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 1):
They kept the NE -295s (plus 2 -291s) into the early 80s.

I know........I hated cleaning the cabins on them when I first got to SLC. They had those damn "bullet" ashtrays in the armrests in coach. What a pain those were.

LMAO. I have a set of those seats in my TV room. They were the old Northeast "Seat and a Half", basically a Burns Airrest model, with a nice fold-down cocktail table.

Yes, those ashtrays are the bullet types as you call them: cylindrical tubes that pull out from the front of the armrest.


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3527 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 12):
As far as the 727-295's, I would like to hear more from Maxpower1954. Even though they were referred to as lead sleds by some, United ordered 28 of them and operated them out of DEN and SLC, and UA was always conscious of high and hot performance because of their large presence at both airports. Before deregulation, United was the largest carrier at SLC as well as at DEN.

Well, since you asked...

The JT8D-7 powered -200 were certainly the lowest performing airplanes. United and Continental flew them out of DEN for many years, but not without issues. CO lost one on take-off there in 1975, fortunately without any fatalities. I know in 1984 UA
dragged a 727-222 (that's the -7 UA version) through the approach lights at the departure end of one of the 35s (I forget which was the longest ). It was a very near thing...I was going through DC-8 captain training at DENTK then and everyone was talking about it.

The -9 was better, but the -15 and 17R versions were the best even though a 200,000 pound take-off out of SFO for CLT still felt like it was leaving a rooster-tail across the bay!


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3373 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 15):

I'm guessing that the -232s were a better performing a/c than the others. The only problem we had with them in SLC was in the heat of the summer.......full fuel load to atl, full pax load, t-storms in the ATL area, etc.........mid morning departure (temp jumped considerablely between 10 and 11.......quite often you would go out within 100 lbs of max, depending on which runway was being used. This was long before the western runway was built. Quite a difference when we started using 757s instead of 727s on those flights (before the DL/WA merger).



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

There's been a nice couple of articles on the history of Northeast in the last two issues of Airways magazine. Part three will cover the jet era to the Delta merger. Never flew on them, just their former a/c!

And just my opinion, but the yellow and white NE livery would look good today. Not dated at all, at least to my eyes.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Interesting to note that before the DL/NE merger, NW had all but signed the papers to merge with NE.....however, the CAB would not allow the MIA-LAX route to be part of the merger, and, so NW backed out. DL did not get the route, either.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3317 times:

National had been awarded MIA-LAX in 1961, but I'm not sure when it was actually started. I think by 1965 it was non-stop; it operated to TPA enroute to LAX before that.

NE was awarded the route in 1969, but the 727-100 was very iffy west-bound, especially in the winter. Hard to believe this one route against a well-established competitior would be a deal breaker.

Same deal with Delta, the route was not part of the merger.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3194 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 19):
NE was awarded the route in 1969, but the 727-100 was very iffy west-bound, especially in the winter. Hard to believe this one route against a well-established competitior would be a deal breaker.

Same deal with Delta, the route was not part of the merger.

Quoting the late R.E.G. Davies book on Delta:


"The first suitor for Northeast in its re-Storered structure, was Northwest Airlines, which first proposed a merger on 11 November 1969. A year later, on 31 December 1970, the CAB approved, but stipulated that this would be conditional on the surrender of the MIA-LAX transcontinental route. Northwest maintained a position of "all or nothing" and withdrew its offer on 10 March 1971."



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3144 times:

Yes, and for many years after the NE merger, the Delta route map showed a dotted line from MIA to LAX with the caption, "Subject to CAB approval" ! I guess they were hoping the CAB would change their minds.

User currently onlinejsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2030 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3113 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 21):
Yes, and for many years after the NE merger, the Delta route map showed a dotted line from MIA to LAX with the caption, "Subject to CAB approval" ! I guess they were hoping the CAB would change their minds.

I remember wondering about this when looking at old timetables. I know that Miami has grown significantly in terms of population and business prominence since the 1970s, but was the market really so small in those days that the CAB felt only one carrier should fly the route?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2992 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 10):
I flew all of the ex-Northeast/Delta birds that came to Piedmont, including N1639, the very first -200 built.

That was the 2nd 727-200 built and the 6th delivered to NE. N1641 (the 5th built) was the first 722 delivered and the first to go into service.

The aircraft below was the first 722 built. It was retained by Boeing for 4 years before being refurbished and sold to OA in 1971. See the photo caption.


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User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2907 times:

So what was the difference between -295 & -247s? DL seemed to like THEM. ln fact, I believe the last 727 rev flight was ex-WA.


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
25 Tango-Bravo : Most (all but 6) of the -247s (ex-Western) were later 'Advanced' models with many having been built in the late-'70s to early-'80s... whereas the -29
26 Post contains images maxpower1954 : And all these years I thought it was the first -200 built (so I was told at the time). Your knowledge always amazes me! The only time I ever got you
27 Post contains images PHLBOS : To a degree, the Yellowbird livery was a cutting edge scheme when it first rolled out in 1966. IIRC, it was one of the first (if not the first) airli
28 gigneil : I'm always surprised to hear about transcons like this one as well as US's SEA-CLT 733. These are well above the ACAP ranges for these planes. How ma
29 WesternA318 : Really? By how much of a margin? I always though either Western or Frontier had the largest presence/ I'm always curious as to how the DC-8's did in/
30 maxpower1954 : Actually, the ones Piedmont used had been bought from PSA, upgraded to the -17 engines and equipped with long range fuel tanks. The MTOW was increased
31 gigneil : Interesting. Thanks. NS
32 WA707atMSP : As with so many things pre-deregulation, it took the CAB four years to decide who should get Northeast's old authority. Pan Am was recommended for th
33 WesternA318 : These were operated by the larger 707-320s before they left the fleet and DC-10's right?
34 mayor : It seems like it was SLC-ATL and they may have just been equipment subs.......not sure if there was any regular service or not. I did non rev on one
35 Post contains links and images 727LOVER : This makes me wonder why DL didn't gor for the 727-100 or 727-200 (non adv) Most of the other trunks did: EA AA UA TW NW NA CO BN View Large View Medi
36 mayor : You've got to remember that DL loved their Douglas a/c.....with the exception of the CV880 and B747 (DL's first Boeings) the entire fleet (not counti
37 gigneil : What timeframe are we talking here? The L-1011 didn't come too far after. NS
38 maxpower1954 : 1973, IIRC. Mayor, you must have forgotten that starting in 1953, Delta had a substantial fleet of Convair 340/440s. They were the last piston-engine
39 mayor : I doubt if WA's presence in SLC was any greater than UA's until they established the hub in 80 or 81. 73-74..........at one time in this timeframe, D
40 gigneil : Hmm... I'd imagine the 727 accessed a good number of fields that the DC-8 couldn't - Douglas never really addressed that part of the market, either. N
41 mayor : I may be wrong, but I was assuming (I know, I know) that the poster was talking about in the time period around the NE merger and not when the 440s w
42 type-rated : I always thought DL was late to the 727 arena, now I know why. Thanks!
43 maxpower1954 : Yes, you're right - sometimes it' hard to keep track where a thread is going!
44 PHLBOS : Actually, NE HAD an order for L-1011s and would've started taking delivery of them aound 1972-73 had DL not cancelled the order. Granted, DL started
45 WA707atMSP : NE's L-1011 order was cancelled in 1970, during the NE / NW merger negotiations. NW, of course, had a large fleet of DC-10s on order.
46 isitsafenow : When Lockheed was close to delivering the first batch of Tristars, Rolls Royce goes on a long strike....I.e. no engines delivered to Lockheed. DL the
47 mayor : Actually, it was because RR was facing bankruptcy that engine production was delayed.
48 Viscount724 : Daily departures from SLC in timetables for dates indicated: WA September 1973 - 33 UA June 1972 - 20 By the late '70s (OAG November 15, 1979) WA - 4
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