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SN In German Hands As Of Next Year  
User currently offlineSN535 From Belgium, joined Feb 2005, 35 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7424 times:

That’s the title of an article in today’s edition of a Belgian newspaper. It is only available in Dutch:

http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=DMF20110728_009

It states that LH will become the full and only owner of SN before the end of 2012 according to a source close to the Belgian shareholders of the company.
Two years ago, LH acquired 45% of the shares (for the amount of 65 million Euros) of the SN Air Holding with an option to acquire the remaining 55% (value defined at 185 million Euros) at a later time. They could have exercised this option this year for the first time but chose not to. LH assured it will be done next year. 2013 offers the last possible time slot to buy the remaining shares. The reasons for which they didn’t opt to exercise their option during 2011 is due to the economic conditions of the airline industry which aren’t so good and that the final price depends on SN’s results at the time of the purchase. Last year there was a small profit of 5,25 million Euros but this year they are heading towards a loss of 60 million Euros. This is due to the high oil prices and fleet investments. If this loss figure gets confirmed, the price LH will have to pay will be far less than the 185 million Euros.

It will be interesting to see if LH will indeed go ahead or will wait until 2013. Also, what will happen if SN will be full property of LH? Is there a possibility that they will re-brand SN?
Personally I don’t think so but you never know. And then there’s the positioning of the brand. Logically they will further develop and invest in the African market where SN is strongly represented and where of course the money is. What are your thoughts on this?

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7361 times:

Quoting SN535 (Thread starter):
lso, what will happen if SN will be full property of LH? Is there a possibility that they will re-brand SN?
Personally I don’t think so but you never know. And then there’s the positioning of the brand. Logically they will further develop and invest in the African market where SN is strongly represented and where of course the money is. What are your thoughts on this?

I doubt that they will rebrand SN, as SN is now an established brand. I would love the Sabena name to ressurrect but I doubt it.
SN will become the "Africa-Airline" that is for sure, LH does not another hub next to FRA, MUC and ZRH so the only longhaul flights will be to Africa.

Fleetwise I doubt that there will be any changes, A330s, A32x and Avros will stay for a while. Maybe the Avros will be replaced with CSeries in the future.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineflyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7313 times:

HA! Finally. I always thought it was only a matter of time before this happens. With the aquisitions of Swiss, Austrian, BMI, Air Dolomiti, this airline was missing from the list. This will give the "group" a stronger position in the market especially when considering the "threat" from middle eastern airlines, for example.

Would be interesting to know if Lufthansa is also interested in LOT now, since that is another airline on my list which strategically would make sense. Time will tell, I guess.

With all the good news, lets hope that Lufthansa does not use this as a tool for unfair practice (higher fares etc.), but I can hardly imagine this taking place in a market regulated by the EU bodies.



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3735 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7189 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting columba (Reply 1):
Fleetwise I doubt that there will be any changes, A330s, A32x and Avros will stay for a while. Maybe the Avros will be replaced with CSeries in the future.

You are forgetting about the ex-Virgin 737s. Those are still in the fleet but will probably be phased out in the near future in favor of more A32X equipment. I believe that one of the 737s went to Korongo, a new airline in the Congo. The fleet of A32Xs has more than doubled in the last four years. Four or five years ago, Virgin was swallowed in SN. The little red balls seen for years in the Belgian skies disappeared then.

SN really likes the A319. They have now no less than 6 of them, if not adding more in the future. They also added a couple of A320s to the fleet.


Yes, I agree that Africa is SN's money maker sector, Africa always was Sabena's strongest sector, but don't forget that by the summer of 2012 SN plans to start flying to the United States, but I don't know what destination. Not long ago there was another thread about this.


Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6540 times:

Big news and such little forum activity? Slow day, must be.

I don't get how LH is practically going to integrate SN in their network. The obvious is that SN will serve the whole african market, and that makes a lot of sense since historically it's their hometurf, and they seem to enjoy a good reputation too. However, where do they get the feed for these flights from? Belgium and the surrounding states can hardly make the africa-business viable. So they need long-haul, transit pax too. But where from if the only long-haul routes they are going to serve are to africa only?
If I were an american, coming from ORD, wanting to go to ACC, I'd feel very much unwilling to go ORD-FRA-BRU-ACC. It's an interim solution or a niche-market solution at best, but not something that can go on forever, especially if we consider that growth rates in some african nations are far beyond one-digit, and in the future the continent will attract a lot more investors. AF/KL are already dominating the field.

Quoting columba (Reply 1):
Fleetwise I doubt that there will be any changes, A330s, A32x and Avros will stay for a while. Maybe the Avros will be replaced with CSeries in the future.

Oh not the Avros. Since LX is letting them go I feel my chances are close to none to hop on one of them. I like their visual appearance.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 3):
Four or five years ago, Virgin was swallowed in SN. The little red balls seen for years in the Belgian skies disappeared then.

Cheer up, you can find twelve of them on SN tailfins these days  



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlinecodeshare From Poland, joined Sep 2002, 1854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6509 times:

Don't worry about LH managing SN. They'll do it right and with the recently announced expansion of the terminal in BRU there will be new possibilities.

KS/codeshare



How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
User currently offline330lover From Belgium, joined Jul 2008, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6499 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 4):
But where from if the only long-haul routes they are going to serve are to africa only?
If I were an american, coming from ORD, wanting to go to ACC, I'd feel very much unwilling to go ORD-FRA-BRU-ACC.

SN is / will be code sharing on several North American flights: ORD (UA), EWR (UA/CO), IAD (UA), YUL/YYZ (AC), maybe PHL (US), so there is already some feed.
And don't forget SN is aiming to start (probably) JFK in 2012!



Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
User currently offlineORDBOSEWR From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6274 times:

Quoting 330lover (Reply 6):
SN is / will be code sharing on several North American flights: ORD (UA), EWR (UA/CO), IAD (UA), YUL/YYZ (AC), maybe PHL (US), so there is already some feed.
And don't forget SN is aiming to start (probably) JFK in 2012!

Codeshare yes, but is SN part of the *A JV++?
I thought the answer is yes, but they have not implemented it yet. I thought I read something here that LH said they would manage the involvement of the subsidiary brands in the JV.
Being part of JV means that SN does not need it's own metal to make these connections easier from a revenue perspective to SN and LH.

Also, just to remember that UA is slowly adding some key cities in Africa from the US side.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8195 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days ago) and read 6184 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 4):
I don't get how LH is practically going to integrate SN in their network. The obvious is that SN will serve the whole african market, and that makes a lot of sense since historically it's their hometurf, and they seem to enjoy a good reputation too. However, where do they get the feed for these flights from?

I get what you're saying. My guess is that SN's African routes exist because of a strong O&D market, to to a lesser extent European connections. I don't see this changing much. LH and it's partners will still serve the large African destinations. You can look at LX as an example of what's to come. Not much changed for LX after the LH aquisition. LX is really an airline within the airline, with its own market strengths. The same will be true for SN.


User currently offlinebralo20 From Belgium, joined May 2008, 621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5959 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 1):
I doubt that they will rebrand SN, as SN is now an established brand. I would love the Sabena name to ressurrect but I doubt it.

Many hope for it to happen but chances are close to zero... However, though "Sabena" is still not completely dealt with (the bankruptcy is still being investigated and thus not closed off), the "Sabena" brand was transferred back in 2001 to SN Air Holding. So when LH buys SN they will also "own" the Sabena brand. But I guess the brand will stay where it is... In the freezer  


User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5546 times:

Well, things might change by the time LH gets the remaining 55% of SN, but we may reasonably expect:

- no more b-light class on European flights, upgrade of b-flex class to LH/OS/LX standards

- orders for 320 OEO (to replace older 737) and 320 NEO (to replace older 320 OEO)

- orders for C10s (to replace AR1 and 8)

- more orders for 333

- selected increases on Europe flights (frequency, destinations)

- more destinations in Africa (possibly with 319 ER or 321, against AF Dedicate)

- possibly some 2nd-hand 343s from LH Group

- possibly longhaul destinations off-Africa (JFK, IAH, GRU, PEK, NRT, SIN), unless started by Star Alliance partner airlines

- possibly 1st-class on some selected African destinations

- hopefully high-speed rail code-shared services between BRU and Breda, Rotterdam, The Hague and Amsterdam, also between BRU, Liège, Aachen and Cologne

- hopefully 4 daily flights BRU-LUX, as in Sabena days  


User currently offlinephotoshooter From Belgium, joined Feb 2010, 454 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4294 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SUPPORT

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 10):
- no more b-light class on European flights, upgrade of b-flex class to LH/OS/LX standards

Thank god!, talking about a useless class on board...

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 10):
possibly some 2nd-hand 343s from LH Group

I doubt that but it would be awesome!

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 10):
- possibly longhaul destinations off-Africa (JFK, IAH, GRU, PEK, NRT, SIN), unless started by Star Alliance partner airlines

They already announced to start BRU-JFK in 2012 with another A333.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 10):
- hopefully 4 daily flights BRU-LUX, as in Sabena days

Haha, I doubt that.. The train is faster (no check-in, no security check, lower cost to operate,...)




I wish them all the best and I do hope LH will make a good airline of SN because I would like to see some changes...
crew = 0/10
Buy on board program = not much to offer and quite expensive
Customer Relations = 0/10

Let's hope LH will make a star airline of SN and I hope they set course to a better future!



'A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.' - Winston Churchill
User currently offlinefrat From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2592 times:

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 7):
Codeshare yes, but is SN part of the *A JV++?

No, SN is not yet in the A++ JV. Might come in 2012.


User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 2158 times:

Quoting photoshooter (Reply 11):
Thank god!, talking about a useless class on board...

Unless you book centuries ahead, b-light is very often poor value for money.

Quoting photoshooter (Reply 11):
Haha, I doubt that.. The train is faster (no check-in, no security check, lower cost to operate,...)

BRU-LUX would primarily accommodate transit traffic, as in Sabena days.

Even more if code-shared with LG and all other Star Alliance airlines (+9W) serving BRU.


User currently offlinejonathanxxxx From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 673 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

They'll have to like what has been said above start U.S. flights as feeders. I can see them codesharing to *A hubs and then starting routes such as the already anounced JFK, and to other high traffic destinations like MIA, IAH, PEK, PVG, NRT and SIN.

User currently offlinevinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 12 months 21 hours ago) and read 2085 times:

BRU - LUX and LUX - FRA are about the same distance. Why connect LUX pax through BRU when FRA is comparitely less of a detour and offers many more destinations?

User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 12 months 21 hours ago) and read 2064 times:

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 15):
Why connect LUX pax through BRU when FRA is comparitely less of a detour and offers many more destinations?

FRA is full as a hub, BRU has more capacity, and better ability to recover from disruptions.

BRU also offers some destinations which you don't have with LH from FRA: UK Regions and Africa for example.


User currently offlinevinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 12 months 21 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

[quote=SR4ever,reply=16]FRA is full as a hub, BRU has more capacity, and better ability to recover from disruptions.

Actually LH doesnt even serve LUX from FRA i'm surprised! Munich will be served starting October I read on Wikipedia. You might be on something here indeed.

Who does Luxair codeshare with at the moment?


User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 12 months 20 hours ago) and read 1982 times:

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 17):
Munich will be served starting October I read on Wikipedia.

Wrong, it has already started (28 March 2011).

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 17):
Who does Luxair codeshare with at the moment?

LG operates the following lines on a code-shared basis:

(LH) LUX-FRA, LUX-MUC (nonstop or via SCN), LUX-HAM (nonstop of via SCN), and LUX-TXL (nonstop or via SCN)

(OS) LUX-VIE

(LO) LUX-TXL and LUX-VIE

(AF) LUX-CDG

(AZ) LUX-MXP, LUX-FCO and LUX-TRN


User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 12 months 5 hours ago) and read 1718 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 10):
- hopefully high-speed rail code-shared services between BRU and Breda, Rotterdam, The Hague and Amsterdam, also between BRU, Liège, Aachen and Cologne

Don't forget Frankfurt, where the train will also stop at the airport on the way. LH has a good rail connection (Rail&Fly) and dedicated railway station check-in counters at FRA. It's a very good alternative to flying, even if you're transiting.

Quoting photoshooter (Reply 11):

I wish them all the best and I do hope LH will make a good airline of SN because I would like to see some changes...
crew = 0/10
Buy on board program = not much to offer and quite expensive
Customer Relations = 0/10

Which means it can only get better, right? For a price of barely 250million€ that sounds like a good deal for LH

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 16):
FRA is full as a hub, BRU has more capacity, and better ability to recover from disruptions.

FRA is expanding quickly, one new runway by next month and another terminal by 2017.



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1494 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 19):
Don't forget Frankfurt, where the train will also stop at the airport on the way. LH has a good rail connection (Rail&Fly) and dedicated railway station check-in counters at FRA. It's a very good alternative to flying, even if you're transiting.

Agreed, but there would have to be more ICE frequency on Brussels-Frankfurt that at the moment (ideally 6 instead of 4)...

Quoting Semaex (Reply 19):
FRA is expanding quickly, one new runway by next month and another terminal by 2017.

Right, but not all that capacity will be for LH. I am pretty sure AB, U2, VY will claim their share of slots in the end.

Anyway, BRU offers some niceties which FRA doesn't, and LH multi-hub strategy is quite consistent with that  


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