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Road Trip From 36L/18R To AMS Terminal  
User currently offlineOD-BWH From Kuwait, joined Jan 2002, 399 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8875 times:

Does AMS really need 6 Rwys? Compared to the 2 Rwys LHR has, the 3 (or possibly 4) that CDG has, I think this is overrated!

The "drive" from 36L/18R to the terminal is about 10 min., which is rediculous provided there isn't much queues in AMS on Rwy thresholds compared to other airports. I think this Rwy is closer to London than Amsterdam, so I guess LHR can use it and stop the fuss about building a new Rwy over there  

OD-BWH


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38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineairbuster From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8761 times:

Noise sensitive area, environmental groups and politics......

but what difference does it make, at LHR you wait in line at the RWY for 10 min, in AMS you taxi for 10 min.



FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5244 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8724 times:

Cant think of a time I have had to hold waiting to land at AMS - but I can remember many times doing the same at LHR

User currently offlinelaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 553 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8698 times:

It seems like I would rather be moving for 10 min than waiting for 10 min. AMS is doing something right, they are a major hub (for KLM and Europe) and do not seem to have a lot of congestion. However, LHR is a major hub as well, but I think there are not enough runways for the amount of terminals.

Thank you for all comments/answers,

laxboeingman



The real American classics: LAX and Boeing.
User currently offlinecloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8678 times:

Quoting airbuster (Reply 1):
but what difference does it make, at LHR you wait in line at the RWY for 10 min, in AMS you taxi for 10 min.

The difference is we have got clever and use CDM to reduce runway holding. We push back just in time for departure to minimize holding time as far as possible, therefore minimizing taxi fuel burn and emission. The piece of software is adapted from one that has been written to determine F1 racing strategy so it is really clever.

Whereas in Amsterdam there's nothing that can be done but to taxi up to 6km and cross various runways to get to/from your runway. Very difficult to minimize that fuel burn unless a closer runway is assigned. So by addressing one environmental problem you create another.



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User currently offlineSandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3428 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8634 times:

Quoting airbuster (Reply 1):
but what difference does it make, at LHR you wait in line at the RWY for 10 min, in AMS you taxi for 10 min.

10 mins? If you wanna do it in 10 mins you would have to violate the max taxispeed limitation by quite a margin  


User currently offlinegoblin211 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8604 times:

Shouldn't ten minutes be a gold mine if you love to look at the other planes taxiing by/parked at the gate? i would love to be taxiing for ten minutes.


From the airport with love
User currently offlinedlphoenix From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 419 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8598 times:

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 4):
So by addressing one environmental problem you create another.

You have just defined the typical NIMBY approach.
In AMS 18R/36C was build to shift air traffic westward from 18C/36C that is in line with the most populated neighborhoods of Amsterdam. Be damned the extra fuel burned for taxi. It has nothing to do with congestion as it substitutes 18C/36C and adds very little capacity.

At LHR the "environmentalists" conveniently ignore fuel burned during landing holds and taxi when discussing the environmental impact of the 3rd runway.

DLP


User currently offlinecloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8440 times:

Quoting dlphoenix (Reply 7):
In AMS 18R/36C was build to shift air traffic westward from 18C/36C that is in line with the most populated neighborhoods of Amsterdam. Be damned the extra fuel burned for taxi. It has nothing to do with congestion as it substitutes 18C/36C and adds very little capacity.

I know it's purely to do with noise mitigation. But fuel burn and emissions are also serious issues. You may think it's only of concern to the NIMBYs but we in air traffic are actively addressing these issues when we redesign procedures.

Quoting dlphoenix (Reply 7):
At LHR the "environmentalists" conveniently ignore fuel burned during landing holds and taxi when discussing the environmental impact of the 3rd runway.

The fact that people are disturbed by noise but they can't feel emissions makes it less of an issues vigorously complained about, but they do!



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlinelaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 553 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8414 times:

Quoting goblin211 (Reply 6):
Shouldn't ten minutes be a gold mine if you love to look at the other planes taxiing by/parked at the gate? i would love to be taxiing for ten minutes.

I agree 100%...I love to be able to look out the window and see the airport. The 787 will be perfect for this because of the bigger windows.

[Edited 2011-07-30 10:22:10]


The real American classics: LAX and Boeing.
User currently offlinedogbreath From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8301 times:

Quoting OD-BWH (Thread starter):
The "drive" from 36L/18R to the terminal is about 10 min.,

I take it that you've not been to Madrid airport yet? 10mins would be a breeze!!

Standard taxi time from Terminal 1 to 36R is 15 mins, and that's taxiing at taxi speeds of 25-30kts. If you're unlucky and have to follow a Spanish airline (Iberia or Spanair) then it' can be almost 35+ mins.



Truth, Honour, Loyalty
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8238 times:

Quoting OD-BWH (Thread starter):
The "drive" from 36L/18R to the terminal is about 10 min

It took our fully loaded 74M almost 25 minutes to taxi for a 36L departure to LAX.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineOD-BWH From Kuwait, joined Jan 2002, 399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8154 times:

Quoting goblin211 (Reply 6):
Shouldn't ten minutes be a gold mine if you love to look at the other planes taxiing by/parked at the gate? i would love to be taxiing for ten minutes.
Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 9):
I agree 100%...I love to be able to look out the window and see the airport. The 787 will be perfect for this because of the bigger windows.

Well yeah, I'd love to. Except that with 36L/18R the taxiways are very far from the aprons and all you see are green fields and highways. Nice views, but not the one I would want to see in a major hub  



A300, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A388, B734, B738, B772, B773, F70
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3036 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8151 times:

I remember doing that "drive" on our last flight into AMS a few years ago. After an 8-hour flight, even for an airliner nut like me, that seems like a REALLY long taxi!


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8113 times:

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 13):
I remember doing that "drive" on our last flight into AMS a few years ago. After an 8-hour flight, even for an airliner nut like me, that seems like a REALLY long taxi!

That was me, taxiing in for the AMS meet a few months ago. Only thing that made it bearable was the young lady seated next to me. I could have used a "hold for crossing taffic" command.


User currently offlinetrinxat From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7181 times:

This runway (it is called the "polderbaan", as apparently in AMS all runways have nicknames) is indeed so far away from the airport that I wonder if it would not be worth adding a small terminal building and a parking lot next to it, and create the Haarlem airport at all. Well the parking lot exists already, as there is a very nice spotting area...

I have always wondered why so many runways when most of the times they only use 3 of them....


User currently offlinemd94 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7033 times:

I always breathe a sigh of relief when we land on another runway other than 18R. The taxi time is usually less than 5 minutes and then I am through passport control before I would have even pulled up to the gate if we had landed on 18R.

Someday I would like to spend some time at the viewing stands out there next to the runway (36L/18R) to get some photos. Especially on those bright sunny days.



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User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5963 times:

Quoting airbuster (Reply 1):
but what difference does it make, at LHR you wait in line at the RWY for 10 min, in AMS you taxi for 10 min.

The difference is that LHR is slot restricted.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 3):
AMS is doing something right, they are a major hub (for KLM and Europe) and do not seem to have a lot of congestion. However, LHR is a major hub as well, but I think there are not enough runways for the amount of terminals.

Well, not enough runways to serve the passenger and freight demand for such an important market. The airport is seriously hobbled and I can only imagine how much loss in productivity/revenue England experiences as a result.

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 8):
I know it's purely to do with noise mitigation.
Quoting trinxat (Reply 15):
I have always wondered why so many runways when most of the times they only use 3 of them....

1) I wonder if during periods of weather, do the extra runways alleviate the need for extra separation on the ground and in the positive control zone, thereby preventing congestion and delays?
2) Also, do they allow for the separation of fast airliners vs slower taxing/departing/arriving commuters?
3) During busy periods can more runways handle more A/C by way of ameliorating the need for take off and landing minimum separation?



I come in peace
User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5007 times:

Quoting OD-BWH (Thread starter):
The "drive" from 36L/18R to the terminal is about 10 min.,

Looks underestimated to me... The average taxi time in CDG, from Term F to 09R Threshold is about 20 min. And it's the shortest you can do!
In AMS, when departing from Term C, it's an average taxi time of 25+ min....!
And this is true if you don't do any hold position!



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineToni_ From Cape Verde, joined Apr 2002, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4304 times:

Noise abatement is the main reason of EHAM having 6 runways. I'd also include the wind, due to the airport's proximity to the North Sea and the flat land, but what really made them go freaky with the 18R-36L runway is pure noise abatement politics. The position of runway is so, that the paths to the runway go over less dense populated areas, which means less complaints.

Usually during take off peaks EHAM uses 2 runways for take offs and 1 for landings. And during landing peaks 2 for landings and 1 for take offs. If the airport only had 5 runways available, the regulations would make it harder to allow the same amount of traffic that the airport handles today. The new runway takes some load off the other runways and allows the total production of noise to stay within limits.

The taxi time can variate between 10 minutes and 30 minutes. I guess it depends on terminal, weather, traffic and type of plane you're on. I reckon taxiing from the gate to 36L with a fully loaded 74M can easily last a bit longer than, let's say, an A321 that just landed on 18R.

According the author of this video it took 10 minutes to taxi to terminal B after a 18R landing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL2E9TS7IZw


User currently offlinetomcat From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

I've always been amazed by the addition of the Polderbaan to AMS. When you consider the scarcity of land in the Netherlands and especially in Amsterdam area and the cost of reclaiming land, this runway really looks like a luxury feature. I guess the airport management must have considered that it would have been even more costly for AMS future to no add this runway.

User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4269 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

Quoting OD-BWH (Thread starter):
The "drive" from 36L/18R to the terminal is about 10 min., which is rediculous provided there isn't much queues in AMS on Rwy thresholds compared to other airports. I think this Rwy is closer to London than Amsterdam, so I guess LHR can use it and stop the fuss about building a new Rwy over there

I've had longer taxi runs in CDG (from T2 to runway 27L), FRA (from terminal to runway 18 via the South taxiway), LHR (waiting!), MAD (from T1 to runway 36R) etc. So, what is the big deal about AMS. The airport is designed this way after local agreements with citizens, farmers, politics etc., it seems the 18R/36L runway is well located and can be used 24hrs/day. So, it's not ridiculous and if there is a lot of fuss about a new LHR runway, they can use their other 4 or 5 airports first.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 18):
In AMS, when departing from Term C, it's an average taxi time of 25+ min....!
And this is true if you don't do any hold position!

I have done many flights as passenger, and never taxied longer then 20 minutes to any of the runways in AMS.

[Edited 2011-07-31 04:07:48]


"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 708 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3938 times:

I've landed on 18R many times, in fact in recent years coming from either UK or US it is just about the only runway I've landed on. The taxi time is quite long (10 minutes is a bit optimistic) but part of that seems to be because the taxi route takes you around the southern end of 36C/18C, if they could figure out a way to cross the center runway that would cut the time quite a bit, especially for the heavies. The long taxi, coupled with the use of a remote stand if you are unlucky can cut quite a bit of time out of a connection. There again, landing on the North runway at CDG is no better than 18R at AMS, that takes 15 minutes or more to taxi.

I've never landed on 36L, always 18R. Is 36R ever used for arrivals?


User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1305 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3815 times:

The three reasons for this ridiculous situation in Amsterdam:
1 Nimby's
2 Nimby"s
3 Environmentalists

But really except for the Polderbaan the situation is managed very well.

On public pressure Schiphol has agreed on noise quota for each area surrounding the airport. With the four existing runways Kaagbaan, Buitenveldertbaan, Zwanenburgbaan en Aalsmeerbaan (the Schiphol-Oost baan is only being used for special purposes like busines jets) this was not possible any longer hence the development of the Polderbaan.



There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
User currently offlineFlanor From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3666 times:

Quoting OD-BWH (Thread starter):
Does AMS really need 6 Rwys?

An alternative 'tangential' design to the current one consisted of even more runways.



The lower drawing in the picture obviously didn't make it. Yet current plans contain a possible new 06R-24L.


25 Post contains images readytotaxi : This was my route last time I flew out of AMS. Captain came on the PA and warned that we had a long taxi time, seemed like forever and we were probabl
26 LJ : There are/were plans to build a terminal at the other side of the highway A4 (the one which is next to AMS). However, current demand do not require i
27 Revelation : Was reading the AMS page on Wikipedia and learned: You learn something new every day!
28 comorin : Is it pronounced Skip-ol or Shi-pol?
29 planesavvy : How flexible are they with changing runways when there are incidents at AMS? At LHR if something where to happen on a runway, such as a burst tire, ai
30 petertenthije : Actually, the origin of the name Schiphol is not 100% sure. There are two theories: 1) The current name Schiphol is a bastardization of Schiphel. Thi
31 Post contains links Flanor : Neither. In this (random) dutch documentary you can hear the word Schiphol at 0:16 and 0:41 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd9q10g4bU8
32 Post contains links Revelation : http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=schiphol speaks the word out loud and it's close to your first rendering. LOL! Now I've learned two new things t
33 Post contains links Joost : No it cannot. The Polderbaan can only be used to and from the north. It depends on how you count it, and it depends greatly on the lay-out. LHR and C
34 SSTsomeday : Do the Dutch not still cultivate the land between runways, taxiways, etc? That used to be the case. It's a sound that does not exist in the English l
35 Joost : The land between the Polderbaan and the other parts of the airport are farmland indeed.
36 Post contains images comorin : Only on a.net Now I'm really confused!
37 Viscount724 : Note the first item referring to 18R and 36L restrictions in the following excerpt from the official Schiphol regulations in the Netherlands AIP publ
38 airbuseric : That is incorrect since landings on 36C are very common these days even in fair weather conditions. I must admit that 18C take-offs aren't performed
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