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AF MIA-CDG Downgraded To 6x Weekly In The Future  
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8730 times:

I just noticed that AF has downgraded its MIA flight starting in October. Des anyone know why this is? I think this has to do with the entrance of KL.

75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFerminios From Canada, joined Apr 2011, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8709 times:

May have something to do with it as well as the overall reduction in capacity across the Atlantic with the JV. I also think it suggests that the MIA market isn't as perfect as is often portrayed on this forum, I'm sure that the AF A380 is far away at this momenT no matter how much the MIA spotters like to see it 

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33194 posts, RR: 71
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8681 times:

Quoting Ferminios (Reply 1):
May have something to do with it as well as the overall reduction in capacity across the Atlantic with the JV. I also think it suggests that the MIA market isn't as perfect as is often portrayed on this forum, I'm sure that the AF A380 is far away at this momenT no matter how much the MIA spotters like to see it 


Nobody portrays it as perfect. It is currently, however, outperforming other trans-Atlantic markets, as demand has remains robust in a weak economy. Air France will continue to struggle in Miami as it continues to offer an absolutely terrible on board product, while the other carriers don't.



a.
User currently offlinelucky777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8652 times:

Quoting Ferminios (Reply 1):
I also think it suggests that the MIA market isn't as perfect as is often portrayed on this forum

Sounds like someone has Miami envy......


User currently offlinebreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8620 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
Air France will continue to struggle in Miami as it continues to offer an absolutely terrible on board product, while the other carriers don't.

Why does a seasonal reduction of 1 weekly frequency = AF struggling in MIA? AA just cut it's 2nd daily MIA-MAD as a routine seasonal adjustment, does that mean they are struggling?



Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8585 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):

Is demand robust? Miami has one of the worst economies in the U.S. these days. The U.S. economy isn't exactly growing gangbusters either.

My question is: If it is robust, why is that? Driven by tourism? Latin American traffic? It certainly isn't the local economy.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33194 posts, RR: 71
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8546 times:

Quoting breaker1011 (Reply 4):
Why does a seasonal reduction of 1 weekly frequency = AF struggling in MIA?

AF has historically been weak at MIA.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 5):
Is demand robust? Miami has one of the worst economies in the U.S. these days. The U.S. economy isn't exactly growing gangbusters either.

The economy is fine. It's no different/worse than what is going on in other major U.S. cities such as Los Angeles. Saying it has one of the worst economies in the Unied States is a over statement. It has a bad unemployment rate, but things are fine.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 5):
My question is: If it is robust, why is that? Driven by tourism? Latin American traffic? It certainly isn't the local economy

A weak dollar has been driving tourism, as well as foreign investment in land, the latter especially from Southeast Asia. The Latin America market from the United States in genera has, time after time, continued to show itself immune from weak economies. International traffic to MIA is up almost 9% in the first six months.



a.
User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1857 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8520 times:

One seasonnal weekly reduction is really no big deal knowing the additional KL frequencies. The 2 events are clearly linked IMO.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33194 posts, RR: 71
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8494 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 7):

One seasonnal weekly reduction is really no big deal knowing the additional KL frequencies. The 2 events are clearly linked IMO.


It is more than just that. Just about a year ago, the only SkyTeam ATI flight to Miami was the Paris flight.

Since then, Alitalia joined (6w MIAFCO, 3w MIAMXP), Delta started long-haul from Miami (7w MIALHR) and, as you mentioned, there is KLM (4w MIAAMS, going to 5w in the spring).

Plus Corsair has done really well on MIAORY, and is going to 4w this fall.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if this minor change is reversed. Tinkering with schedules like this happens all the time.



a.
User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1857 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8465 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
Since then, Alitalia joined (6w MIAFCO, 3w MIAMXP), Delta started long-haul from Miami (7w MIALHR) and, as you mentioned, there is KLM (4w MIAAMS, going to 5w in the spring).

You are right. As a whole the JV has greatly improved the offer to MIA.


User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8427 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):

The immediate Miami area has an unemployment rate of 14%!!! It lost 70000 of jobs over the last four years.

Things are not fine there and are far from "robust". And, yes, things stink in a lot of the U.S. but Miami is doing worse than many other places. This isn't my opinion either.

It's good to hear that MIA is weathering the storm though thanks to LatAm traffic.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33194 posts, RR: 71
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8396 times:

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 10):
Things are not fine there and are far from "robust". And, yes, things stink in a lot of the U.S. but Miami is doing worse than many other places. This isn't my opinion either.

No, it is is your opinion. Unemployment by itself is not a single factor that determines how an economy is doing. Many cities in the Midwest, Oregon, California and Northeast would trade anything to be in Miami's position. Miami is doing fine - the weak dollar as of late especially has been a huge boon for the city as investors scoop up cheap land for construction.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 10):
It's good to hear that MIA is weathering the storm though thanks to LatAm traffic.

Growth this year has largely been thanks to European traffic.



a.
User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8370 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):

I don't want to drift too far off topic but since it's my "opinion":

Name the cities that are worse than Miami

[Edited 2011-07-31 13:09:59]

User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8369 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 10):
Things are not fine there and are far from "robust". And, yes, things stink in a lot of the U.S. but Miami is doing worse than many other places. This isn't my opinion either.

But yet it was just named the richest area in the country recently. So clearly they aren't hurting too bad.
I think people are just overreacting. Its one frequency. Plus like mentioned above there have been a good amount of new Trans Atlantic service introduced. Maybe there could be some excess capacity but one frequency is hardly a huge indicator of how a route is performing.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8357 times:

[quote=jetblueguy22,reply=13][/quote

14% of the people are making as much as unemployment doles out. Clearly, a large segment is hurting quite badly, especially if those people were making much, much more.

Also, quite clearly, businesses in the area aren't doing well because they can't seem to rehire a large segment of the the population that was laid off recently.

The effect to MIA seems small at this point but it's a problem for the long term.

[Edited 2011-07-31 13:13:58]

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33194 posts, RR: 71
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8315 times:

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 12):
Name the cities that are worse than Miami

Cleveland, Portland, Cincinnati, Buffalo, St. Louis, Chicago, Detroit, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Washington.

I'll stop there and go back on topic. If you want to think Miami's economy is so terrible, you are welcome to your opinion. I won't argue it, neither will I agree with it. Things could be a lot worse over there.



a.
User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8283 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
OK, I'm not gonna argue with you beyond this point for taking the thread off topic.

Just go to www.bls.gov click on Areas at a Glance and see how wrong you are about many of the metros that are doing "worse" than Miami.

Again, it's not my opinion.

[Edited 2011-07-31 13:21:28]

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33194 posts, RR: 71
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8174 times:

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 16):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
OK, I'm not gonna argue with you beyond this point for taking the thread off topic.

Just go to www.bls.gov click on Areas at a Glance and see how wrong you are about many of the metros that are doing "worse" than Miami.

Again, it's not my opinion.

[Edited 2011-07-31 13:21:28]


Yes, it is your opinion. An economy's strength is determined by numerous factors, most of which can't be reduced to statistics.



a.
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3433 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7930 times:

Quoting Ferminios (Reply 1):
I'm sure that the AF A380 is far away at this momenT no matter how much the MIA spotters like to see it

I believe the service will become a 77W in 2012 once the 744s are retired. AF does not plan to fly the 388 here in the first place.

Quoting breaker1011 (Reply 4):
Why does a seasonal reduction of 1 weekly frequency = AF struggling in MIA? AA just cut it's 2nd daily MIA-MAD as a routine seasonal adjustment, does that mean they are struggling?

The OP seems to believe that an afternoon rainshower is proof of Miami's imminent demise. I would disregard it.


User currently offlinevinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7802 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Yes, it is your opinion. An economy's strength is determined by numerous factors, most of which can't be reduced to statistics.

I think u should explain yourself more clearly. If u'r talking about airline demand economics, that's a whole different beast than the general economy. Ie Detroit for example, according to any economic indicators, it's doing terribly bad, still though, it's a Delta hub and isn't being downgraded like Memphis or Cincinnati.

About statistics I think you are wrong. They explain pretty much everything especially the general economy.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2898 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7703 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
An economy's strength is determined by numerous factors, most of which can't be reduced to statistics.

Wow, I had no idea. I wonder why economists even bother with statistics then.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11458 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7656 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Ferminios (Reply 1):
May have something to do with it as well as the overall reduction in capacity across the Atlantic with the JV. I also think it suggests that the MIA market isn't as perfect as is often portrayed on this forum, I'm sure that the AF A380 is far away at this momenT no matter how much the MIA spotters like to see it

It's not about being perfect or not. AF is a network carrier and the fact is MIA is well covered from Europe and probably have limited French business ties. Further, AF have a good Caribbean and South America coverage, and this reduces the connectivity power of MIA in regards to CDG.
It's the opposite of London, a market MIA have very strong ties, strong business and the potential of connections.

AF do not struggle in MIA and do not have a different product from other markets (they use the 744 in other markets with good results).

No doubt the A380 could change the game. But it could change the game in mostly markets.

The reduction probably is in line with the JV with DL.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3598 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7596 times:

Maybe its that jobless recovery that's being touted?????

User currently offlinepanam330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7593 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 12):
Name the cities that are worse than Miami

Cleveland, Portland, Cincinnati, Buffalo, St. Louis, Chicago, Detroit, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Washington.

You know, I normally agree with almost everything you say, but Washington should absolutely not be on this list. Far and away one of the most stable, growing economies in the country, with [relatively] low unemployment. We can thank Uncle Sam for that. The rest? Well, I'd agree, mostly.


User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7573 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
The reduction probably is in line with the JV with DL.

Hi Everyone. What is "JV," please? It seems to be a new acronym that is bantering around.

Thanks



I come in peace
25 N62NA : MAH4546 is MIA's biggest supporter (almost to a fault), just as STT757 is EWR's biggest supporter (also almost to a fault). Take it from someone who
26 MAV88 : Why start a discussion as to what cities economy is doing better than others? I always thought MIA was/is experiencing massive growth to Europe and th
27 peanuts : No panic. From an alliance perspective, SkyTeam has seen a lot of new MIA routes in the past year alone. Between KL/AF/DL it's all JV flying. Than the
28 MAH4546 : Air France has commissioned a study from MIA officials to convert gate H15 to become A380-capable. The conversion will take at least a year if Air Fr
29 NADC10Fan : Amid all this talk of who is and isn't struggling in the market, how is LH doing running the A388 into MIA? Tried searching to see if there was anythi
30 LipeGIG : Joint venture / Partnership between DL, KL and AF
31 flymia : Unemployment while important is not the only thing in a large city. Miami has a lot of international business and finance etc.. Yes people are losing
32 izbtmnhd : To answer your question: Because I find it hard to believe that demand is "robust" for anything in Miami when there aren't nearly enough jobs to keep
33 flymia : Well there is plenty of demand for more flights especially International fights as the airport has continued to expand and see more passengers. Those
34 Rafabozzolla : It's just a guess, but being such a huge tourist destination, it seems that local originated pax is less important in MIA than, let's say, PIT or STL.
35 Delboy : Whatever happened to the drugs trade?
36 bobnwa : I believe it goes via Mexico/Texas now.
37 MAV88 : While the drugs trade was the single biggest reason for Miami's surge in the last 70s right through the late 80s, today it is a different story. Miam
38 JasonCRH : what on earth are you talking about? I fly Air France, I fly KLM, I fly BA, and I think that AF overall beats the pants off of all of those other carr
39 LY777 : They may talk about the current state of the 744s (although they are being refurbished) and about the cramped 3-4-3 config of the 777s
40 miaintl : I HIGHLY doubt that this 1 reduction in frequency has anything to do with MIA being a weak market. Its like others have said, its all to do with the
41 peanuts : One of the things you stated earlier in the same post: Keeping that JV in mind (which is not THAT new anymore), DL is taking care of the ORD route, f
42 jfk777 : Let remember KLM also started flights from Amsterdam to Miami recently, so 6 weekly CDG-MIA with the KLM flights means KLM-AF has actually increased f
43 miaintl : The Munich flight got axed and the Dusseldorf flight is seasonal and commences again in October.
44 LY777 : Which day won't be operated?
45 miaintl : I thinks its Wednesday, which is one of the days that KL operates to MIA, which leads me to conclude that these two things are linked.
46 Post contains images LY777 : A few months ago, I hoped that AF could have 2 daily flight to MIA, like before... But it will remain a dream
47 Post contains images flymia : Well if you want to go to PAP they do
48 MAH4546 : I have nothing to "face." AF sends its 744 to MIA, which has a weak and dated on board product. It says a lot that Air France is the only Eutopean ai
49 JasonCRH : Premium traffic is full Y, full business and full first class fares. AF has a very large and versatile fleet that they can assign based on demand. if
50 jonathanxxxx : +1 Thank you. Definitely. Theres a reason why BA can send triple daily 744's to MIA. All of the destinations you listed are connecting through FRA an
51 goldorak : I agree with you, even id it's true that AF747 are outdated (except the last 3 they received) but they are refurbishing them. Add Corsair to the list
52 miaintl : You think the MIA-EUROPE market is underserved? What other European airlines need to fly to MIA , OS or SK maybe?
53 jonathanxxxx : Now I said somewhat underserved. And yes, SK, TK and OS are yet to enter the market. Also I meant in terms of cities. We still are yet to have service
54 bestwestern : Can you explain these comments....
55 miaintl : I wonder if AF starting to fly to MCO has anything to do with the MIA flight being cut back? Does anyone know what the impact the MCO-CDG route has ha
56 LY777 : You may be right indeed. And not to mention that AF uses a high density 77W on the MCO route
57 miaintl : It might be that and a combination of factors, such as the KL service and the new JV.
58 MAH4546 : No, Air France's competition for the huge (no air quotes needed, it's an annual market of 220,000 local passengers) MIAPAR market includes Swiss, Luf
59 AirGabon : That's a perfect analysis and explanation. Miami-Paris is a huge local market, lot of French tourists and "wealthy/trendy" French living in Miami are
60 bestwestern : Why is corsair, with an inferior product doing well, and AF is doing poorly? Is it that AF/KL/DL have grown Florida to Europe so much that a x1 freque
61 JasonCRH : I'm sorry. I don't buy it. if there's a nonstop, people are going to take the nonstop, not the connections. I work in airline planning and what you ar
62 bestwestern : I agree. Especially when people say that AF is doing badly due to the product, and they make direct comparison to Corsair, with their charter layout
63 MAH4546 : What don't you "buy?" That Swiss and British Airways have the highest average fares on the route is a fact. Most people do take AF and AA, that's not
64 TYCOON : As an economist, I find MAH4546's economic logic quite strange and not making too much sense, which leads me to doubt many of his other assertions on
65 MAH4546 : What assertions? Unlike most everybody else here on this thread, I am using facts, because I can look up fare data and traffic figures. MIAPAR is a l
66 JasonCRH : Fair enough. I dont think this necessarily means they get a higher share of the overall premium market. They're probably just getting whatever first c
67 TYCOON : Sorry, MAH4546, still not following you...
68 MAV88 : People need to realize that Miami and South Florida is a premium heavy market. A plane can easily be filled and filled with good yields to pretty much
69 miaintl : Of all the places you just mentioned, I can only see IST and DXB actually materializing in the next 5 years.
70 SESGDL : All of these markets are already served from MIA (with the exception of NRT and ICN) through their current service to Europe and the hubs of the Euro
71 LipeGIG : Please, lets avoid secondary discussions here. The subject is AF operation CDG-MIA. Thanks Felipe
72 goldorak : Who said AF is doing poorly to MIA ? It's surely not their best route in NA but I don't think we can say it's doing poorly. As you said, their JV has
73 N62NA : If it was failing, they'd dump the 744 for the A332 like they did on CDG-EWR, no?
74 miaintl : Just found out that the AF flight will go back to daily in end of March 2012, so far it looks like a seasonal reduction.
75 Post contains images LY777 : this is good news, thanks
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