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787 Declares Emergency Over Flight Control Issues  
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2837 posts, RR: 4
Posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 50185 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Title says it all! Took off declared emergency about 10 min later! Word is it is ZA233 which is Air India's first 787. I believe today was supposed to be its first flight.
Blue


All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineChrisba777er From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 50165 times:

Any more news on this?

It's all over Twitter. FADEC control issue?



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offline4holer From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 3046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 50126 times:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE233

Hope for a happy ending!!



Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2837 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 49879 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Looks like it is on the ground. Pilots said that it was a 'flap problem'.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2521 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 49835 times:

Oh jeez, this can't be good! Hope all works out for the crew, and the 788 project as a whole!

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlinenra-3b From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 49369 times:

Sounds like a flap rigging issue. Probably not worth anybody getting their panties in a bunch.  

Cheers,
Bob


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31394 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 49317 times:
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Quoting nra-3b (Reply 5):
Sounds like a flap rigging issue. Probably not worth anybody getting their panties in a bunch.   

While nothing would really surprise me with the 787, I would imagine that with all the flight hours accumulated to date, that this is happening to the first flight of an airframe would make me believe it is an issue specific to that airframe only.  


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4941 posts, RR: 40
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 49240 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
it is an issue specific to that airframe only.

I hope it is. But your statement sounds very plausible.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12938 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 49134 times:

Quoting nra-3b (Reply 5):
Sounds like a flap rigging issue.

That, or countless other things that can cause a "flaps problem".

Quoting nra-3b (Reply 5):
Probably not worth anybody getting their panties in a bunch.

This is a.net, and so panties wad up pretty much instantaneously!  



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2776 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 48986 times:

Well.. if it was that severe, you'd think they would ground all 787s immediately? ZA102 just passed over my house in Oregon at FL350...  


View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31394 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 48898 times:
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Quoting KPDX (Reply 9):
Well.. if it was that severe, you'd think they would ground all 787s immediately?

Even if it was an issue with a core system like the FADEC, that does not mean that all 787 FADEC's have the issue. It could just be an issue with ZA233's FADEC.

If it was a problem with the core systems, you'd expect it to have cropped up prior to this since the fleet is past 4600 hours of flight time and I expect ZA233 would be operating in a much more...sedate...flight envelope than the test fleet have.

[Edited 2011-07-31 14:23:17]

User currently offlinePart147 From Ireland, joined Dec 2008, 529 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 48899 times:

So declaring an emergency in flight is 'not that severe' eh?   

It doesn't matter a flying fig what A.net thinks about this 'issue'... good or bad - but let's watch the markets tomorrow morning to see what the customers/stock holders/public think...



It's better to ask a stupid question during training, rather than make a REALLY stupid mistake later on!
User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 48846 times:

Sort of on topic question, but with all the aircraft that Airbus and Boeing produce, how many show problems on their test flights before being delivered to airlines? Is it a common occurance? Has one ever been lost?

User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1999 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 48841 times:

Quoting Part147 (Reply 11):
but let's watch the markets tomorrow morning to see what the customers/stock holders/public think...

I suspect tomorrow's markets are going to be a tough place to take a reading on any one stock.

Hopefully this isn't a major setback.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31394 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 48793 times:
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Quoting Part147 (Reply 11):
It doesn't matter a flying fig what A.net thinks about this 'issue'... good or bad - but let's watch the markets tomorrow morning to see what the customers/stock holders/public think...

If it is just a rigging issue for that airframe, I expect they'll all think little if anything of it. *shrug*


User currently offlinePart147 From Ireland, joined Dec 2008, 529 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 48641 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
If it is just a rigging issue for that airframe, I expect they'll all think little if anything of it.

I agree Stitch .... IF it's JUST a rigging issue!  



It's better to ask a stupid question during training, rather than make a REALLY stupid mistake later on!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31394 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 48440 times:
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Quoting Part147 (Reply 15):
I agree Stitch .... IF it's JUST a rigging issue!   

Yes, but as I noted up-thread, the fleet has something like 4700 flight hours on it and ZA233 was evidently on climb-out when it encountered the emergency. So I would think if this is some systemic issue in the flight control software or hardware endemic to the entire fleet, it statistically should have happened before today.

But as I also noted up-thread, nothing surprises me anymore with this program, so if the after-action review does show a critical failure in the design and they ground the fleet, I won't be shocked.


User currently offlineNBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 834 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 47524 times:

There are many issues that crop up during assembly, that is why they flight test them before being delivered. I can remember many issues my father used to tell me about during his days with MDC and then Boeing, anything from an unsecured windshield wipers to landing gears that wouldn't deploy. So this is not uncommon, its just because this is currently a high profile flight test program that we are even hearing/caring about it.


"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 47273 times:

Does anyone know if the A380 ever had to declare an emergency during its test or delivery phase?

Let's hope this incident is just airframe specific. I would have expected something like this from an older airframe but it was a good job it happened while in Boeing's hands and not in the customer's. Not sure the passengers would be too impressed.


User currently offlineZuluAlpha From Thailand, joined Mar 2010, 418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 47190 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 8):
This is a.net, and so panties wad up pretty much instantaneously

No panty wadding here ...

I go comando !!!   



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User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2776 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 47024 times:

Quoting Babybus (Reply 18):

Does anyone know if the A380 ever had to declare an emergency during its test or delivery phase?

I could be wrong but I recall seeing a video of a hole that developed in the fuselage of the A380 during the flutter tests. That or some type of damage. I'd assume they declared an emergency for that, unless they were unaware.



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1999 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 46060 times:

Quoting Babybus (Reply 18):
Does anyone know if the A380 ever had to declare an emergency during its test or delivery phase?

An A330 crashed, right? I'm not sure what conclusion you were trying to draw, but maybe that'll help.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5792 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 45804 times:

Quoting Part147 (Reply 11):
but let's watch the markets tomorrow morning to see what the customers/stock holders/public think...

I'm not an investor in Boeing, so I don't really care one way or the other. Their opinion isn't relevant to me personally - I'd rather be more concerned about the actual problem encountered today.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineglideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1628 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 45502 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 13):
I suspect tomorrow's markets are going to be a tough place to take a reading on any one stock.

The understatement of the decade.   

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 3):

Looks like it is on the ground. Pilots said that it was a 'flap problem'.

Would not come up symmetrically.   



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineglideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1628 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 45430 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 22):
I'm not an investor in Boeing, so I don't really care one way or the other. Their opinion isn't relevant to me personally - I'd rather be more concerned about the actual problem encountered today.

-Dave

Don't have to be an investor in Boeing. Watch your 401K loose 30% in 8 hrs.   



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
25 PlanesNTrains : Well, I guess my point was that I don't have an opinion on what this does to Boeing's stock. -Dave
26 Carls : Airbus lost an A330 while in the certification process.
27 shufflemoomin : I didn't mean during the certification of an aircraft, I meant during the test phase of a production aircraft.
28 abibus : I am pro airbus even so I love to fly the 777 and 744 but I realigning and wish Boeing all the best because I will even think about to fly with a 787
29 something : That was my first thought as well. My second thought was the QF A388 at SIN. Some problems may need time to develop, though I tend to agree this is a
30 Post contains images KPDX : Yep, and we all know because of this, the plane was a failure. /sarcasm
31 KC135TopBoom : Well, it wasn't inflight, but the was the A-346 being prepared for delivery to QR, and during a 4 engine full power test (with no chocks installed, I
32 rfields5421 : If there is any group which is more clueless and panic prone than A.Net over the most minor and stupid things - it is the stock market investors. As
33 Viscount724 : EY not QR.
34 kanban : actually the press is/are worse than either... they don't even try to find out the facts...
35 prebennorholm : Not in the fuselage, but in the MLG fairing under the fuselage. It was not during a production pre-delivery test but during certification test. It wa
36 carbon787 : are people for real????? j h c.......so what?....it is either a rigging or mechanical problem....happens....in fact happens a lot with ANY make/model/
37 zeke : Normally not an issue with the rigging of the flaps at all, this sort of problem is more likely to be a problem with one of the position sensors or f
38 soon7x7 : More than likely a software problem...Boeing is still pretty adept at mechanical development...
39 Post contains links IAD787 : Hey guys, Boeing says it was traced to a failed sensor. They wouldn't say anything beyond that. http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...sensor-failure-
40 starrion : What else is there to say? A minor airframe-specific fault. Nothing to see here, move along. /panic mode: OFF
41 Post contains images soon7x7 : New technology...new glitches...Amen!
42 BoeingVista : Didn't the 737 have a manufacturing issue regarding cross rigged controls that required a line shutdown? Well not really, 4700 hours is nothing compar
43 aeropiggot : This is pretty much a none issue, a faulty sensor that needs to be replaced. That is why you conduct a B1 test flight, plus others with the customer
44 robsaw : Well, given that the single sensor failure is the actual fault, and that this is the first fault of its kind reported, there is no statistical signif
45 IndianicWorld : Like it or not, any event like this, on a project as troubled as the 787 has been will cause panic. From delays, to electrical fires and now this, peo
46 BoeingVista : Not true, every failure at significantly less than the expected service life gives new statistical evidence. It can be marked up as non significant i
47 JBirdAV8r : An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Or 300 pounds of funeral. This is what I'm hearing happened.
48 mabadia71 : I read on a trip report here on A.net that it was fixed and IIRC it flying with Emirates.
49 CXB77L : Different plane. A6-ERG is the A345 that had a tailstrike in MEL. That plane has since been repaired and returned to service. The A346 that was writt
50 BoeingVista : Nope, that was defiantly a write off, cut in two over a blast fence Has to be a bit more, if it was just a sensor problem that doesn't explain the co
51 BMI727 : And you figure that how? A sensor feeding wrong information into a feedback control system can certainly lead to control problems if the system belie
52 tdscanuck : I'd be pretty shocked for any aircraft to come back from it's first flight with zero squawks. Didn't Bombardier go through a period of having the fla
53 something : The crew deemed the problem serious enough to declare an emergency which instantly entails an FAA investigation, extensive paperwork and if considered
54 Post contains images IndianicWorld : ^^ it all depends what you rate as panic In the end, each issue effects the confidence of those around, and adds more stress to an already stressful p
55 Post contains images lightsaber : I have a strong opinion on this topic as I'm familiar with an aircraft, that was *extremely* mature that jammed a flap due to a change that should hav
56 Navigator : That had nothing to do with the airframe but rather how it was operated This is a pure guess of yours. It could be just anything.[Edited 2011-07-31 2
57 ba319-131 : - This was not a new aircraft, the flight was a pre-acceptance lease return flight.
58 Navigator : It was operated by airlines at the time and not Airbus. And it was nothing wrong with the plane either. Why all this talk about Airbus when the issue
59 HAWK21M : Emergency during a test flight is rare & points to a more serious note.Also the 1st flight of that particular Airframe hence the concern to declar
60 Navigator : I agree. Test flight crews are less prone to declare emergencies. Firstly they are experienced and able to handle different circumstances better than
61 PlanesNTrains : The only reason was that some of us have no idea how common or rare this type of thing is during test flights, so the qeustion was asked. It's releva
62 Post contains images Navigator : I see But none of the examples I have seen here has anything to do with test flight emergencies except those we all know involving the 787 and I stil
63 AirbusA370 : Why didn't they check the flaps *before* flight? I mean, it's not that difficult to operate them once on ground before departure. Maybe the pressure o
64 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Sure, but I think that was mostly because people were trying to come up with things that they remember, though they might not necessarily have relate
65 AirPacific747 : Also, the aircraft crashed in the Mediterranean sea, not in the North Sea, AFAIK
66 oldeuropean : It crashed because of an error by the pilot. This was no technically fault.
67 UALWN : How likely would it be that the pilots had checked the flaps OK prior to T/O and then they would have failed 10 minutes later? And, if this is what h
68 be77 : A fairly common occurence actually - as a passenger I can think of at least 6 flights in 25 years that I have been on where we had flap issues...sens
69 Post contains images Carls : Certification Process is one if not the most important part of the test phase. Thank you for your clarification. While true, the question was if ther
70 tdscanuck : I'm not sure about the crews you fly with, but I've *never* experienced a test crew who would hesitate to declare an emergency if they though it was
71 justloveplanes : How can one failed sensor cause and emergency? Shouldn't all flight controls be redundant?
72 Post contains images nra-3b : Navigator: Every thing in this thread is pure guess when referring to the incident yesterday, and the ultimate result. However, utilizing the sparse i
73 474218 : I can remember dozens. Ballscrews stripped, vane actuators broken, gearboxes frozen, drive shaft bearings failed, asymmetry brakes locked, hydraulic
74 Revelation : This type of flight is being held to look for manufacturing flaws and was not being operated in commercial service, so you are way off base. How do w
75 Wisdom : Aircraft are built with million to 1 probability specifications. If it fails this soon, it statistically should have happened later than today. Then
76 par13del : So how many hours or years of flying should an OEM put in on a new deisgn before they allow it to go into commercial service? Supplimental question,
77 lnglive1011yyz : On a typical flight, I agree. On the FIRST flight of a brand-new airliner off the line, I'd fully expect that SOME component MIGHT fail during part o
78 kanban : how does one politely say Bull! obviously actual aircraft manufacturing and test experience was not involved here. I recall similar situations where
79 notaxonrotax : You may be underestimating Tdscanuck here.......by just a touch. No Tax On Rotax
80 474218 : First there is no "leading engineer". This is a manufactures flight test. There are many people involved with the preparation for a flight, each with
81 WesternA318 : I used to be a Boeing investor, now I buy short sells against them, because of the 787. Every little problem with the beast makes all Boeing investor
82 litz : Maybe with a brand new replacement aircraft ... after getting wrapped across the top of that blast wall, the only place that airplane was going was i
83 Post contains links KPDX : http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE5 Boeing test flights fly on....
84 Aesma : Flight control issues in the title made me shiver ! I didn't think of the flaps, it's reassuring in a way, unless of course you got a very assymetric
85 Post contains images KPDX : Maybe there was no problems with the A380 emergency wise, but even back in 2004, things weren't followed nearly as close as they are now I'd argue. E
86 Stitch : Just because it's an emergency does not require that it be an event that could lead to an imminent hull loss...
87 ikramerica : Isn't this why aircraft go through test flights before delivery to customers, even after 1000s have been delivered successfully?
88 tdscanuck : This comment touched off a little controversy: I replied, but my reply died in a chain of "deleted because the referenced post was deleted". Just to c
89 Post contains images bikerthai : Would a stuck Lav Door be considered a squawk? bikerthai
90 474218 : In fact we had a file for each L-1011 we delivered and the "Delivery Flight Squawks" where one the items tracked.
91 Post contains images Stitch : If I was performing one of those 18-hour F&R / ETOPS flights, I'd sure be squawking.
92 474218 : That all depends: If the door was designed to stick, no it would not be a squawk. If the door was designed not to stick, yes it would be a squawk. Si
93 tdscanuck : A stuck lav door would be a "non-flight discrepancy"...something that should be fixed but isn't related to airworthiness. But even something as benig
94 HAWK21M : Wonder if Boeing will provide more details.
95 Stitch : All Things 787 reports the sensor was not connected properly. ZA233 will head to SAT (for outfitting, I guess) within a week.
96 Post contains links mdword1959 : All Things 787's Production & Disposition update from yesterday indicates that ZA233 - VT-AND is now at SAT. When did it arrive? http://nyc787.blo
97 Stitch : 04 August, evidently.
98 ikramerica : Can we lock this thread now?
99 HAWK21M : Interesting ...... No simulation of the System prior to flight release?.
100 Stitch : Maybe it was still connected at start-up, but came loose during the take-off roll or shortly after rotation.
101 ikramerica : Need to road test all aircraft over a cobblestone street from now on before FF.
102 HAWK21M : Tough to believe....The Attachments to sensors are quite secured......
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