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Adria Suspending LGW, CDG, IST & WAW  
User currently offlineLuka From Serbia, joined Aug 2006, 186 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6305 times:

The Slovenian national airline is in financial trouble. They have a lot of debt and are borrowing more money. They now plan to discontinue LGW, CDG, IST and WAW. Except for WAW these are really surprising for me. The suspensions are probably from the winter seasons.

Here is the full article: http://tiny.cc/qb32e

Your thoughts?

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6351 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6078 times:

Quoting Luka (Thread starter):
Except for WAW these are really surprising for me.

Me too. You would think that London and Paris, despite their high costs, are places where money could definitely be made. Istanbul too, for that matter.

I wish them the best. I have flown with them once between VIE and TIA via LJU and had a nice experience with friendly staff (as are most Slovenes in my experience)


User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2208 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6010 times:
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Slovenia seems like a very anonymous country, compared to Croatia where everyone goes on holiday now it seems, so if Adria only has Slovenians onboard, their growth potential will be limited, sadly.


Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineVasu From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 3943 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5864 times:

This is definitely a shame - what is the lo-co competition on these routes like?

User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6351 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5837 times:

Quoting Vasu (Reply 3):
what is the lo-co competition on these routes like?

Easyjet competes on both London and Paris...my guess is that would be the biggest obstacle to Adria. Air France also does Paris. Turkish does Istanbul.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5803 times:

another StarAlliance small carrier that would create synergy if only they would absorb their national pride and go under Lufthansa's umbrella

rebrand it Lufthansa Slovenia, and let it feed from FRA/MUC/ZRH/BRU instead of attempting to hub Ljubljana

another one is Aegean - what's the point of that when there's already TK right next door


User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6351 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5754 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 5):
rebrand it Lufthansa Slovenia, and let it feed from FRA/MUC/ZRH/BRU instead of attempting to hub Ljubljana

Very interesting. I could definitely see this working well. Ljubljana is a great city with definite business and tourism draws but...it's just not quite big enough in either regard.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7599 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5632 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 5):
go under Lufthansa's umbrella

rebrand it Lufthansa Slovenia, and let it feed from FRA/MUC/ZRH/BRU instead of attempting to hub Ljubljana

Lol. Well, LH would first have to be interested. And the rebranding may not be necessary. LH Italia did not work too well. SN, OS and LX have not been and will not be rebranded.

Another option would be TK, wouldn't it? TK already owns a participation in B&H Airlines. I suppose they could try to extend their sphere of influence.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6351 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5581 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 7):
LH Italia did not work too well.

I would argue that Italy and Slovenia are very different when it comes to this aspect. Italy has several carriers, including a very large national carrier, and a ton of interest from outsiders. Slovenia...not so much. This IS the main carrier, and it's pretty tiny. I could see LH Slovenia being more successful than LH Italia...albeit on a very different business model.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5571 times:

Quoting Vasu (Reply 3):
what is the lo-co competition on these routes like?

Though not lo-co competition, AF operates 2 x Daily flights on CDG-LJU-CDG with ERJ145/170/190.


User currently offlineLuka From Serbia, joined Aug 2006, 186 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5473 times:

Why would LH buy Adria? Adria is virtually completely under the control of Lufthansa and serves mostly as a feeder for its flights. Lufthansa doesn’t need problems with the European Union’s competition body when it already gets everything it needs from Adria.

User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4275 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5390 times:

I don't like their CRJ200's also used on long runs e.g. LJU-AMS. Too tiny and cramped for these long sectors. If I have a choice, I rather prefer a short transfer elsewhere and fly another carrier to Slovenia.


"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineflycro From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5218 times:

Twice daily to IST then scrapped is a big downgrade, will TK up frequencies?

User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4948 times:

It seems these are tough days for european smaller national/regional airlines...

JP is losing momentum.

KF is also cutting down its non-scandinavian network.

LG is in serious trouble and to withdraw flights (PRG, DUB).


The trouble with those airlines is that they have no longhaul flights to make profit on, while facing tougher competition from LCC and/or improved railway services.


JP network cuts is sad news, perhaps something else may have been thinkable:

- replacing jets with props on shorter routes, yet with decent capacity (AT7, DH8): TIA, BNX, SJJ, PRN, BEG, TGD, SKP, SPT, ATH, VIE, MUC, ZRH. In the end, lower fuel burn and (if upgauged from CR1-CR2) more capacity, so lower cost base.

- upgauging some of the longer routes (CR10, C10)

- removing airbus frames from the fleet, and cut down some seasonal routes

- moving from LGW to LHR and from SVO to DME (and code-share accordingly with BD/AC/UA/CO/US and TN)

- upgrade some routes to 1-daily ferquency (all yugoslavian destinations + BCN, code-sharing with JK)


User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6351 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4930 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 13):
The trouble with those airlines is that they have no longhaul flights to make profit on, while facing tougher competition from LCC and/or improved railway services.

This hits the nail on the head perfectly. Add to that the fact that a lot of these airlines fly heavily to vacation destinations which are often low yielding and you have the perfect storm of negative financial situations. I love the smaller airlines myself - Luxair and Adria have been two of my best experiences in European air travel. However, I rarely get to fly them because they have no connectivity outside Europe, and the train is often faster for me (since I usually work in city centers and travel between city centers). Sure, I flew Hamburg - Luxembourg - Paris, but if I were simply going Luxembourg to Paris (which I have), I would (and did) take the train.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27171 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4930 times:

Shame they are a nice little airline and I had good service on them. Im surprised at the LGW CDG routes being axed.

User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4884 times:

Quoting sw733 (Reply 14):
but if I were simply going Luxembourg to Paris (which I have), I would (and did) take the train.

LUX-CDG is indeed a n expensive matter of pride for LG. None flies it point-to-point anymore, it just feeds AF network, not on the cheap for LG.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7599 posts, RR: 42
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4864 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 13):
moving from LGW to LHR

That might end up being too costly for them to afford. And I am not sure they will get much feed from Star carriers @ LHR... the best places for them to get feed IMHO are FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE and IST... and maybe ATH.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25700 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4840 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 13):
It seems these are tough days for european smaller national/regional airlines...

JP is losing momentum.

KF is also cutting down its non-scandinavian network.

LG is in serious trouble and to withdraw flights (PRG, DUB).

The trouble with those airlines is that they have no longhaul flights to make profit on, while facing tougher competition from LCC and/or improved railway services.

Europe has far too many airlines. Further consolidation is unavoidable and will help strengthen the remaining carriers. Every small country doesn't need it's own national carrier. Those days are over. It's almost as if each of the 50 US states wanted their own airline. In proportion to population, I'm sure Europe has significantly more airlines than North America.


User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 958 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4522 times:

Quoting Luka (Thread starter):
They now plan to discontinue LGW, CDG, IST and WAW. Except for WAW these are really surprising for me

I guess not everyone always has to keep going to LGW and CDG, there are other destinations on this globe. AA could not make FRA work from ORD even though it is the 3rd busiest route out of ORD. WAW was another feeder into LO.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7599 posts, RR: 42
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

Quoting WROORD (Reply 19):
AA could not make FRA work from ORD even though it is the 3rd busiest route out of ORD

Well, it is kind of a circle. ORD-FRA is the 3rd busiest route out of ORD because ORD is one of UA's main hubs, FRA is LH's main hub, and UA and LH have a JV, so a very large number of Star Alliance passengers flying between the U.S. and Europe end up flying XXX-ORD-FRA or ORD-FRA-XXX or even XXX-ORD-FRA-YYY.

By the same token, ORD-FRA is so clearly dominated by UA and LH, that AA, despite its ORD hub, was unable to compete.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25841 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4131 times:

I saw earlier this year Adria had its entire Airbus fleet available for ACMI contracts, which is a little baffling as the carrier only last year spent money to swap out its older Airbus fleet for newer models including 2 brand new A319s.

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 11):
I don't like their CRJ200's also used on long runs e.g. LJU-AMS. Too tiny and cramped for these long sectors.

In fairness, a 50/70-seater is probably the right size for the market.

We are talking about Slovenia and a hub city of Ljubljana which has a population under 300,000.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 13):
replacing jets with props on shorter routes, yet with decent capacity (AT7, DH8)

   A local regional airline using large props on Slovenia's primary European O&D routes sounds like a plan.

If they must keep some larger equipment then the CRJ-900s could be maintained for the longer distance flying.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 13):
- removing airbus frames from the fleet, and cut down some seasonal routes

The Airbuses are too much, and too costly. Anyhow the value of the Airbus was either to carry Slovenians to places like Egypt or Spain to vacation, or bring tourist in from places like Scandinavia. I doubt such budget and charter flying covered the A32x fleets overhead.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 13):
- moving from LGW to LHR

The value of LHR slots might be more than entire corporate value of JP. I don't see them getting any LHR slots, especially if they will operate them with small equipment.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 17):
That might end up being too costly for them to afford. And I am not sure they will get much feed from Star carriers @ LHR...
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
The value of LHR slots might be more than entire corporate value of JP. I don't see them getting any LHR slots, especially if they will operate them with small equipment.

Understood, what about LCY? A good way of standing out of U2...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
We are talking about Slovenia and a hub city of Ljubljana which has a population under 300,000.

Which is even less than Luxemburg  
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
If they must keep some larger equipment then the CRJ-900s could be maintained for the longer distance flying.

Yes, and CR9 already has decent capacity enough, keeping average unit costs to an acceptable range.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
I doubt such budget and charter flying covered the A32x fleets overhead.

Who knows. LG make money on its holiday flights, whether operated with spare DH4/ER4 or dedicated 73H-738. But that might be an exception...


What I also don't understand is why JP doesn't serve MXP.

Italy is Slovenia's 3rd largest trade partner, Milan itself it a major commercial, industrial and financial centre, and ground transportation on Milan-Ljubljana is a joke (almost a whole day driving, and no more daytime rail service, as you have to take the Venice-Budapest overnighter.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Europe has far too many airlines. Further consolidation is unavoidable and will help strengthen the remaining carriers. Every small country doesn't need it's own national carrier. Those days are over. It's almost as if each of the 50 US states wanted their own airline.

Perhaps too many independent airlines.

Smaller states such as Slovenia or Luxemburg cannot compare with North Dakota or Rhode Island, there is more history, and and often a higher population density.

10 yrs ago, people would say exactly the same about SR after its collapse, and even louder 5 yrs later fater Swiss had burnt up CHF 4 Bn in the meantime. Now we hear another tune...

Smaller airlines may have a future, on condition that they find and operate successfully their niches. JP could do that for sure.

If JP were to collapse, it would be a major blow-out for Slovenia.


User currently offlines5daw From Slovenia, joined May 2011, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

Oh well, planned ecconomy doesn't work, who would have tought!?

Adria received 4million %u20AC of state aid early this year, "just until April, when the high season starts".
That was not enough so later - with a bit of EU rules bending creativity - they received another few millions.And now they are facing bankrupcy unless EU approves some 35 million state aid.

In the process, Adria leased another A319, who knows why.

The company is severely missmanaged. They have no real vision or strategy. Simply cutting routes will bring no success. I mean, they could keep just the Brussels route and make money on goverent officials, but what kind of Airline is that and how they expwct to return the loans? (on a side note, in a planned ecconomy they dont really plan to pay it bac, but sply require more ans more from the biggest national bank - the model that has worked "so well" for the past 20 years.

But whay do you expect from the administration with professors who teach that "a business plan is prepared in one night" on board. And from the owner (state/government) who has a Falcon business jet in a hangar for 10 or so years because they dont know wether to fly it, sell it, or whatever - so they just keep it grounded.

In any case, this will not solve Adria's problems. It could be the beginning of the flat spin thay will end with a hard crash. I hope I am wrong.

PS: sorry for the typos, a.net + android is not the best combo


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2992 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3498 times:

Adria is just suffering from a combination of factors. Intense competition and a small market are the main ones, but the economes of scale really are a major consideration here too. It just is not able to be efficient enough at its current size, especially against many of its larger competitors.

Becoming a part of a larger airline is definately an option they should consider, but pride will certainly have to be put aside for that to happen.

In the years to come, I can see around 3 or 4 major legacy carrier groups, with LH, AF-KL and IAG (TK might well become a force on its own too) being the main leaders oif that consolidation,, a few larger LCCs, a few larger travel groups operatating charters, and a couple of specialist carriers, if they can get the model right to be relevant on their own.


25 CRJ900 : Adria ordered one 100-seat CRJ1000 but converted the order into a CR9, but this has not yet been delivered. Perhaps they should re-order the CRJ1000
26 Post contains links Luka : Adria’s hub LJU doesn’t seem to be doing great either. http://tinyurl.com/43kj5mc Adria has a base at PRN. They fly to a couple of cities, mostly
27 skipness1E : What's the point of Swiss with Germany just next door? Lufthansa Schweize would be a winner I am sure ! I was going to use Austrian as an analogy but
28 Post contains links Luka : CPH is also on the chopping block http://exyuaviation.blogspot.com/201...idering-copenhagen-suspension.html
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