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Bombardier Nets Gulf Air Order  
User currently offlineAirCanadaA330 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5275 times:

"No details are given as to the aircraft type purchased, but Gulf Air has long been rumoured to be ready to order Bombardier's new twinjet."

Looks like BBD might have a new order coming up. Nothing mentioned on the type of aircraft, but all fingers are pointing toward the C-Series. Would be nice to see a new customer for the C-Series.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ombardier-nets-gulf-air-order.html


Cheers;
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3283 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5254 times:

Hmmm....are they that unhappy with the E190s?  


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 715 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5074 times:

Congratulations to Bombardier. I am glad C-Series is getting more acceptance. It is such a beautiful aircraft. Once it is in commercial service and the numbers are proven, it should see the same kind of success that the E-Jets now enjoy. C-Series could prove to be the tipping point for Bombardier

User currently offlineGEG2RAP From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 847 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5062 times:

when we will see the test flight program begin for the C series? First plane off the line? Are they using the old CRJ200 line to make these?

User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4947 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5039 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 1):
Hmmm....are they that unhappy with the E190s?

I hear they are happy with the 190. But, the C Series is better on fuel, and better on numbers.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineDash9 From Canada, joined Nov 2008, 188 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4960 times:

Would that be a new order? I though Gulf was one of the 3 unnamed customer that signed a few weeks ago. The article mentions a 325M $ deal so would that be for one of the two 10x aircraft orders, including discounts (32M each)? Usually press release only refer to list prices. If so the CS are listed around 60M each so 325M would be for 6 or 7 frames so not the 3x or the 10x frames order so a new one.

Its great seeing the Cseries gaining momentum! We've heard BBD executive promising this for years now.

-Dash9


User currently offlineSkywatcher From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 453 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4517 times:

Quoting GEG2RAP (Reply 3):
when we will see the test flight program begin for the C series? First plane off the line? Are they using the old CRJ200 line to make these?

A new plant for final assembly is being constructed at the underused Mirabel (YMX) airport about 45 min. north of Montreal.


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 604 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4111 times:

Quoting GEG2RAP (Reply 3):
Are they using the old CRJ200 line to make these?

The old CRJ200 line has been replaced by the Challenger 300 line, the Challenger 605/850 line (same FAL) and interior completion of those three models.


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 5925 posts, RR: 34
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4109 times:

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 6):
A new plant for final assembly is being constructed at the underused Mirabel (YMX) airport about 45 min. north of Montreal.

Just to clarify, there is an existing 700,000 square foot factory that builds the CRJ700, 900 & 1000 at YMX... and the CSeries expansion, which will almost double the existing facility, is smaller than originally planned since the CSeries production plan was altered to integrate CSeries infrastructure with CRJ production to save money and better utilize existing production infrastructure. The CSeries infrastructure will be phased in over time.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineAirCanadaA330 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3434 times:

I am not too sure if there is a time table, but does anyone know when the first C-Series jet will be rolled out?

Quoting golfradio (Reply 2):
I am glad C-Series is getting more acceptance

Agreed....



Cheers;
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3370 times:
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Quoting Dash9 (Reply 5):
Would that be a new order? I though Gulf was one of the 3 unnamed customer that signed a few weeks ago. The article mentions a 325M $ deal so would that be for one of the two 10x aircraft orders, including discounts (32M each)?

I suspect this is a new order. But for how many frames? That value could be the lifetime value for as few as 4 or as many as 8 frame, but not one of the 10x aircraft orders. To my knowledge, this is a new order!   

Mea culpa for missing this thread (I mistakenly started another.)

Lightsaber



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User currently offlineDash9 From Canada, joined Nov 2008, 188 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3079 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
To my knowledge, this is a new order!

Whats weird is that it look quite official from a government perspective as the Bahrain procurement agency has approved it. Yet BBD and Gulf Air are completely silent about it but I would expect BBD to be vocal since that would extend their order wave. Could it be that the order is not final yet, not even an LOI, and that this agency has released the governmental approval too quick?

Dash9


User currently offlinesquared From Canada, joined May 2005, 387 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2959 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
I suspect this is a new order. But for how many frames? That value could be the lifetime value for as few as 4 or as many as 8 frame, but not one of the 10x aircraft orders. To my knowledge, this is a new order!   

Pretty exciting if this isn't one of the undisclosed orders... Here's hoping the CSeries continues to garner more orders this year.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2691 times:
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Quoting Dash9 (Reply 11):
Yet BBD and Gulf Air are completely silent about it but I would expect BBD to be vocal since that would extend their order wave. Could it be that the order is not final yet, not even an LOI, and that this agency has released the governmental approval too quick?

Probably true.   However, it could be that Bombardier/Gulf Air are waiting for the right time to announce? The Dubai airshow is in November 13th through 17th.

Quoting squared (Reply 12):
Pretty exciting if this isn't one of the undisclosed orders...

Yet it is. Bombardier claimed to have a number of sales campaigns underway. Their strategy of 'seeding the market' by pursuing small orders is paying off. While I didn't even know Bombardier was talking to Gulf air, enough of these 'small' orders and the backlog looks nice.

I'm personally waiting for the results of talks with Guardia. Note: I have *zero* inside knowledge on that order and negotiations could already be terminated. It is mearly that Guardia seems to have 'turned the corner' and has a bright future for growth. For if Bombardier is able to sell to 20+ small airlines, we should see one or two become the next U2/FR/WN/FL/etc. The difference is that most likely that airilne will be in Asia, the mideast, or Africa.   

Anyone know who else Bombardier is talking with? I know DL, but again I have no insight. That would that be a 'rock the world' order, but also an unlikely order.  

Lightsaber



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User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
Anyone know who else Bombardier is talking with? I know DL, but again I have no insight. That would that be a 'rock the world' order, but also an unlikely order.

Apparently WN staff have been seen at Mirabel, kicking the tires. CSeries might be the 717 replacement for WN, although the 717s aren't that old. But the GTF economics might make the difference.

I'd be shocked if AC hadn't at least walked through the place.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1462 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
Anyone know who else Bombardier is talking with? I know DL, but again I have no insight. That would that be a 'rock the world' order, but also an unlikely order.

Why unlikely? At the Paris Airshow, KE was so delighted to have signed an order the CS300, that they apparently rushed to their fellow Skyteam member DL and enthused: "Look what a wonderful plane we've just bought, you should order these also    "



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User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2586 times:
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Quoting connies4ever (Reply 14):
CSeries might be the 717 replacement for WN, although the 717s aren't that old. But the GTF economics might make the difference.

C-series leases start to expire in 2014.    It doesn't matter how old the aircraft are... WN has ~18 months left to decide what to do with the 717 (due to the lead time on long lead parts). With the first CS300 due in 2014... the stars might just align for the 717 to be replaced by the C-series...

Lightsaber



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User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2545 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
C-series leases start to expire in 2014. It doesn't matter how old the aircraft are... WN has ~18 months left to decide what to do with the 717 (due to the lead time on long lead parts). With the first CS300 due in 2014... the stars might just align for the 717 to be replaced by the C-series...

It would be very cool for the CSeries to find its' way into the WN family. Such an outcome might lead inevitably to a CS500, which might really work as a 733 replacement.

I'm curious to know if the Gulf Air CSeries purchase is to supplement or replace the Jungle Jets. To me it looks like replacement, as they has 2 E175s and 2 E190s, IIRC, and the CSeries purchase appears to be, initially, for four frames.

If it's replacement, that poses a real threat to future E190/195 sales. Some have speculated that Embraer will launch a clean sheet design in the 120-150 seat range, buut realsitically, could it have an EIS date any earlier than 2017 ? By then it ight be too late. Superjet is already in limited service, and the CS100 is about 24 months away.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinevoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2053 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2492 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 17):
I'm curious to know if the Gulf Air CSeries purchase is to supplement or replace the Jungle Jets. To me it looks like replacement, as they has 2 E175s and 2 E190s, IIRC, and the CSeries purchase appears to be, initially, for four frames.

Judging by the talk of Qatar's C-Series plans, the aircraft also has the ability to reach the Gulf from London City (though I am guessing that is with reduced seating/load). There may be a few other Western European routes with similar qualities.

[Edited 2011-08-04 06:48:45]


` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineDash8Pilot From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

Its great to see Gulfair ordering the CSeries.. Now I guess we got to wait and see what happens with QR and the Cseries.
Who could be next in the gulf??


User currently offlinevoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2053 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2319 times:

The fact this Gulf order is being kept quiet, reawakens my suspicions (perhaps unrelated to Gulf but...) about this page on the BBD website
http://cseries.com/en/#/cseries/flex...irfieldperformanceandrange/europe/
where, for some reason, both London City and Florence are initally deemed worthy of being indicated on the map, but not displayed on the range tabs below the map (as opposed to the 'major hub' of Las Palmas?).

What am I getting at? Could it be that airlines operating from LCY and Florence are already quietly committed as unannounced customers?
Note that on the Americas map, neither Denver nor Mexico.. the former definitely Frontier/Republic C-Series territory and the latter a distinct possibility for them.... are considered 'major hubs' worthy of highlighting with range tabs:
http://cseries.com/en/#/cseries/flex...fieldperformanceandrange/americas/

I like the cheekiness of putting Rio and Santos Dumont in...perhaps going after a GOL order?

All speculation... but enjoyable.



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2175 times:
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Quoting frigatebird (Reply 15):
Why unlikely?

The DL order would pose high risk for Delta. They are an estabilished profitable airline that is able to secure financing at reasonable costs. Thus the risk of taking on 100 to 150 of an unknown type, which would be about half the C-series order book, posses high risk to them. Specifically:
1. Poor resale. There would be no way for DL to sell the C-series if the plane was good but just 'not right' for them a la SQ and the A340-300X. Untill Bombardier signs up 20+ customers, this will be the case.   Hence why I am a fan of their strategy to sign up numerous airlines that are ordering 3 to 10 aircraft.   
2. Delta is the 'Bell at the ball.' DL is going to buy ~250 narrow bodies and thus will be getting incredible offers from Bombardier, Airbus, and Boeing. I suspect that at the prices Airbus and Boeing will offer aircraft to DL, it is unlikely that the risk for the C-series could be justified. 'Risk' can always be expressed as a dollar value. For early buyers of the C-series, the risk per aircraft will be high.   It is the timing of the DL order.
3. The C-series is unproven. Take the E190. That is a great aircraft. However, B6 is incurring elevated costs owning the 'fleet pathfinders.' Bombardier is too small to prevent DL from having the same experience even if KE takes the CS300 pathfinders.
4. Until Bombardier sells well over 400 C-series, there is the risk, like the 717, that there just won't be enough of the planes in the fleet for PIPs (performance improvement programs). GE brags that the CFM-59-7B is being overhauled at 16k to 20k cycles. My rumor mill insists the BMR-715 is having issues getting much past 6k cycles between overhauls. It isn't worth it for RR to optimize the engine for more cycles as the engineering costs would exceed the cost savings for FL and thus no profit potential for RR, only risk. FWIW, at EIS 6k cycles was competitive. Back then the fleet leading engines were being overhauled at 8k to 9k cycles and Pratt offering 15k cycles on the PW6000 was considered insane (but 8k at EIS, to be extended). The V2500 vs. CFM-56 competition forced both engine vendors to extend the maintenance intervals tremendously. In 2020, expect 30k cycles on fleet leading engines between overhauls(~7 years for HA, more for any other airline). Unless Pratt feels they will make a profit on PIPs, they will not authorize them (Note: IIRC, the PW1400G has one or two PIPs guaranteed to help sell the initial examples, so there will be some improvement) The A320 is having its service life extended. That *never* would have happened if the type didn't sell so well that Airbus is going to sell the paper authorizing the life extension at a net profit!
5. Life extension support. As much as I am unable to fully understand the economics of DL still flying the DC-9-50, NW/DL is happy that the fleet life has been extended by Boeing. Bombardier plans to certify the C-series for 85k cycles with an extension to ~115k to 120k. It takes a large number of aircraft, or a *large customer* like NW to pay for such an engineering effort. I already mentioned the A320... This is another reason success breeds further success.
6. The GTF gearbox. Boeing is afraid of the gearbox. There is good reason. About half of the spectacular engine failures on the old 4-engine prop jobs were gearbox related. For some, which I disagree with, the GTF will need to prove itself first. You had better believe Boeing is going to spread rumors about the GTF as the GTF represents a risk to 737 (NG and RE) sales.
7. DL executives hate Pratt. In 2000 and 2001 Pratt was short of engine parts that DL needed. Aircraft were grounded for extended periords due to Pratt's miss-management of parts. When a vendor (Pratt) costs an executive their bonus, they are *not* very forgiving... One of my friends went through hell trying to scrounge up parts (at Pratt) for DL. The scathing letter DL wrote was sent to the entire Pratt e-mail distribution list. While the executive who wrote "DELTA WILL NEVER AGAIN BUY A PRATT ENGINE," is gone from DL, his subordinates remain. And yes, I quoted the caps which were in the letter... I do not believe DL won't consider Pratt today, but Pratt is handicaped selling to DL due to major prior mistakes (it wasn't just this one botch...). Basically, bad prior experiences will make DL hesistant to take the first 18 months production of any new Pratt engine. By first 18 months, I unfortunately must include thrust increases of existing designs too. : ( (That is what bit DL.)

Airlines like to see 18+ months of in service data prior to a HUGE order to minimize the risk. Even the vaunted 738 had numerous issues during its first 18 months (e.g., the fan on the CFM-56-7B due to the higher required thrust at end of climb fluttering fan blades on the 738. But GE did a great fix to that fan.). RR had to take back the initial 752 engines and both GE and RR will have to take back and replace the initial 787 engines! Issues that are but a distant memory (or taken care of, in case of the 787). If DL was ordering in 2015, I would sing a differnt tune. Until Bombardier can prove in flight performance *and* manufacturing consistency, they will have a tougher time garnering the big orders.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
C-series leases start to expire in 2014.

oops... I meant to note FL's 717 leases start to expire in 2014 and the CS300 (heck, CS100 would be the closer 717 direct replacement..&gt Wink would enter service just months after the first 717s are returned to Boeing. Although I doubt Boeing would fight minor lease extensions...  
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 17):
If it's replacement, that poses a real threat to future E190/195 sales.

Only in that the lease terms on the E190/E195 tend to be pricey. Mexicana noted they would have prefered the E190 over the 717, but lease terms dictated the 717.

Quoting Dash8Pilot (Reply 19):
Now I guess we got to wait and see what happens with QR and the Cseries.

I suspect that ship has sailed...

Quoting voodoo (Reply 20):
where, for some reason, both London City and Florence are initally deemed worthy of being indicated on the map,

The CS100 should be a very competitive LCY plane.  
Quoting voodoo (Reply 20):
Note that on the Americas map, neither Denver nor Mexico.. the former definitely Frontier/Republic C-Series territory and the latter a distinct possibility for them.... are considered 'major hubs' worthy of highlighting with range tabs

I see the flags, but after covering LAX, JFK, and ORD, what is there to sell the C-series? Why isn't ICN on that Asia map? : ( I also note Bahrain isn't on the map.   Also look at Africa... One flag yet numerous C-series sales campaigns are rumored to be going on there.

Lightsaber

In other words, the cities selected to not seem correlated with customers, but rather cities the general public might 'click on.'

Lightsaber



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