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New Republic/Frontier #25  
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3553 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 16410 times:

With the last thread up near 240 posts I'd thought I'd take the honor of starting #25. If you want to reference any previous topic from New Republic/Frontier #24 (by srbmod Jul 15 2011 in Civil Aviation)#menu236 be my guest.

Remember to always follow A.net rules and keep it real and on topic.

The breaking news is that FL will pull out of PHF so where does that leave F9? Speaking of FL, since they are going bye bye in early 2012 could F9 apply to IATA for their old code...FL?


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
261 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7308 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 16368 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
The breaking news is that FL will pull out of PHF so where does that leave F9? Speaking of FL, since they are going bye bye in early 2012 could F9 apply to IATA for their old code...FL?

Code change won't happen.

I don't think it will mean too much for F9 unless they start flying PHF-Florida which would be considerably out of character for them. I'd expect NK and/or G4 to enter PHF. ACY is also losing about 1/2 of its service with NK cutting back there and now FL leaving as well.


User currently onlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 16308 times:

Several threads ago connecting PIE and PHF was talked about with some interest.


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6791 posts, RR: 32
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 16310 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
The breaking news is that FL will pull out of PHF so where does that leave F9?

FL had close to half of PHF's passengers, so it could mean higher costs at PHF unless the airport operator has some other way to pay the bills. If WN intends to move most or all of FL's flying to ORF, I'd say it's increasingly likely that WN will add ORF-DEN in the next year or two.


User currently onlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16125 times:

Based on WN/FL decision to leave PHF. If F9 ultimately decides to do an an about-face and return service or start daily service to PHF I would think it would have to be from MCI and MKE.


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1738 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 16057 times:
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Buried in the earnings release from Republic tonight is a nearly $33 million dollar loss for Frontier. I know a loss was expected; not sure how much. But given the results of the other carriers, it's ugly regardless. Looks like it won't be until early 2012 when the full effect of the restructuring can be gauged in the earnings results.

User currently offlineTigerguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 970 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 16024 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 5):
Buried in the earnings release from Republic tonight is a nearly $33 million dollar loss for Frontier. I know a loss was expected; not sure how much. But given the results of the other carriers, it's ugly regardless. Looks like it won't be until early 2012 when the full effect of the restructuring can be gauged in the earnings results.

A link for said earnings release: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/rep...ts-2011-08-01?reflink=MW_news_stmp

Considering we've been following the impact of volatile fuel prices, here's this eye-opener from the report:

Quote:
Fuel costs for Frontier were $199.0 million for the quarter. The fuel cost per gallon, including into-plane taxes and fees, increased 44.3% to $3.48 for the second quarter of 2011 compared to $2.41 for the prior year's second quarter. The increase in price resulted in $61.3 million of additional fuel expense in the second quarter of 2011, as compared to second quarter 2010. The second quarter results include a mark-to-market loss on unsettled fuel hedges of $3.6 million, or $0.06 per gallon, and $3.8 million, or $0.06 per gallon for 2011 and 2010 respectively.

As for the hail, the report tells us to wait until the end of the third quarter to see the roughly $10 million impact.

Finally, the obligatory picture. Let's have a look at the newest F9 A320 for which a database picture is available: presenting N214FR, Carl the Second!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Kanagie




Flying friendly for a while, but is that a widget I see in the rear-view mirror?
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6791 posts, RR: 32
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15956 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 5):
Buried in the earnings release from Republic tonight is a nearly $33 million dollar loss for Frontier. I know a loss was expected; not sure how much. But given the results of the other carriers, it's ugly regardless.

The numbers are ugly, no two ways about it. It's not surprising that the earnings release is bad, considering they decided to announce well after the close of business and after-hours trading. The ex-items net loss is double the consensus estimate, but they did beat on revenue by a couple of percent. The branded operation's net margin of -6.6% makes AMR's 2Q numbers look almost stellar by comparison.

It's my opinion that the restructuring target got bumped up from $100 million to $120 million once it became clear that the 2Q branded numbers were going to be as ugly as they are. Branded wiped out a healthy profit at fixed-fee and then some yet again; no wonder the board is losing patience with the branded strategy.


User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2947 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15923 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 5):
I know a loss was expected; not sure how much. But given the results of the other carriers, it's ugly regardless.

Certainly true. The loss is quite a bit larger than the street estimate, although I'd be curious to know what planet some of those analysts reside on....the Q1 call gave sobering guidance for a significant Q2 loss, and yet two analysts projected a profit or break even.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 5):
Looks like it won't be until early 2012 when the full effect of the restructuring can be gauged in the earnings results.

Some benefits from restructuring will come in Q3, but certainly not all..

goal .. achieved … full savings by …. category
$25m ….. 100% ……. Q4 2011 …….. network & fleet adjustments
$25m ….. 100% ……. Q3 2011 …….. labor & benefits savings
$25m ……. 80% ……. Q3 2011 …….. aircraft least restructuring
$15m ……. 10% ……. Q1 2012 …….. fuel conservation efforts
$10m ……. 80% ……. Q1 2012 …….. reduced maintenance expenses
$10m ……. 70% ……. Q3 2011 …….. reduced distrubution & marketing costs
$10m ……. 35% ……. Q1 2012 …….. other cost resduction


For a very rough idea, the three which say full effect starting in the current Q3 quarter...if you apply the stated percentage achieved...it comes to $52m. That's an annualized number, so 1/4 of that is $13m savings. Other categories which won't be at full savings until later quarters may contribute some to Q3 results.

I'll be curious to hear what they have to say on the call tomorrow...


User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2947 posts, RR: 30
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15912 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 7):
It's not surprising that the earnings release is bad, considering they decided to announce well after the close of business and after-hours trading.

I think that's been their MO for many quarters -- not something specific because of bad earnings, though it could of course look that way.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 7):
It's my opinion that the restructuring target got bumped up from $100 million to $120 million once it became clear that the 2Q branded numbers were going to be as ugly as they are.

Very likely true.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7308 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15891 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 5):
Buried in the earnings release from Republic tonight is a nearly $33 million dollar loss for Frontier. I know a loss was expected; not sure how much. But given the results of the other carriers, it's ugly regardless. Looks like it won't be until early 2012 when the full effect of the restructuring can be gauged in the earnings results.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 7):
The numbers are ugly, no two ways about it.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 7):
The ex-items net loss is double the consensus estimate

I am shocked just how bad that was. I don't know if there are smoke and mirrors in the numbers (making branded look worse and CPA look better), but 2Q is normally a pretty good quarter for the airline. If they make no profit in the 3rd quarter I have to wonder where things are going. I understand the $120 million restructuring plan, but until they actually report a profit I don't see any buyers except UA/WN as a liquidation play to eliminate capacity in DEN. I believe this will be the worst 2nd quarter result for a large U.S. carrier behind only VX which isn't saying much.

Anyway, I'm not sure we can expect much of a 3rd Quarter with a $9.99/24 fare war in place. Perhaps WN is attempting to administer a Death Blow (TM Konami).


User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1311 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 15793 times:

I still think MKE is dragging Frontier down. I checked a random date on September 14 to compare F9's DEN & MKE operation. MKE only has 10 Airbus departures compared to 114 in DEN. MKE has 4,495 daily seats, 23% of the 19,084 seats available in DEN. 47 of MKE's 66 daily flights are on 37/50 seat ERJ's. DEN has none of the smaller 37/50 seaters. DEN has 8 74-seat Q400 flights and the rest are E190's and larger.

This is MKE's flight schedule on September 14 -

TO DEPT A/C SEATS
BOS 750 A319 138
LGA 803 A319 138
DCA 810 A319 138
DEN 912 A319 138
LGA 1410 A319 138
DCA 1431 A319 138
LAS 1635 A319 138
BOS 1954 A319 138
DCA 2004 A319 138
LGA 1955 A320 162
DFW 1400 E70 76
DFW 1955 E70 76
DEN 600 E90 99
MCI 700 E90 99
DFW 746 E90 99
MCI 1315 E90 99
MCO 1440 E90 99
MCI 1740 E90 99
MCI 2130 E90 99
IND 740 ER3 37
FNT 900 ER3 37
DSM 1030 ER3 37
MBL 1315 ER3 37
RHI 1435 ER3 37
GRB 1525 ER3 37
MBL 1954 ER3 37
RHI 2140 ER3 37
STL 700 ERJ 50
CMH 740 ERJ 50
PHL 740 ERJ 50
CLE 750 ERJ 50
EWR 750 ERJ 50
DAY 755 ERJ 50
BNA 840 ERJ 50
PIT 845 ERJ 50
BKG 850 ERJ 50
OMA 850 ERJ 50
MSP 900 ERJ 50
GRR 1105 ERJ 50
GRB 1110 ERJ 50
MSN 1110 ERJ 50
EWR 1317 ERJ 50
CMH 1355 ERJ 50
OMA 1355 ERJ 50
MSP 1400 ERJ 50
PHL 1405 ERJ 50
DSM 1407 ERJ 50
FNT 1420 ERJ 50
GRR 1430 ERJ 50
MSN 1440 ERJ 50
BNA 1730 ERJ 50
CLE 1735 ERJ 50
DAY 1735 ERJ 50
PIT 1735 ERJ 50
CMH 1745 ERJ 50
MSP 1745 ERJ 50
STL 1745 ERJ 50
IND 1821 ERJ 50
PHL 1945 ERJ 50
GRR 2125 ERJ 50
OMA 2125 ERJ 50
DSM 2130 ERJ 50
MSN 2135 ERJ 50
MSP 2135 ERJ 50
FNT 2140 ERJ 50
GRB 2140 ERJ 50
4495

This is DEN's flight schedule on September 14 -

TO DEPT A/C SEATS
OKC 1030 A318 120
MCI 1315 A318 120
ABQ 1515 A318 120
SNA 1813 A318 120
DFW 1945 A318 120
DFW 705 A319 138
FLL 705 A319 138
DCA 725 A319 138
HOU 805 A319 138
SNA 811 A319 138
LAS 813 A319 138
SLC 816 A319 138
GEG 818 A319 138
SFO 820 A319 138
SMF 825 A319 138
MDW 830 A319 138
SAN 835 A319 138
LAS 953 A319 138
ATL 1025 A319 138
DFW 1025 A319 138
MSP 1025 A319 138
BNA 1033 A319 138
MSN 1038 A319 138
AUS 1040 A319 138
CAK 1040 A319 138
DAY 1050 A319 138
SAT 1050 A319 138
BKG 1120 A319 138
SDF 1128 A319 138
MDW 1140 A319 138
LAX 1210 A319 138
PDX 1224 A319 138
SFO 1225 A319 138
SLC 1225 A319 138
SMF 1250 A319 138
TUS 1250 A319 138
DFW 1305 A319 138
MKE 1310 A319 138
SAN 1310 A319 138
SNA 1315 A319 138
PHX 1319 A319 138
ATL 1320 A319 138
DTW 1400 A319 138
LAS 1407 A319 138
BNA 1425 A319 138
HOU 1500 A319 138
MDW 1500 A319 138
STL 1500 A319 138
MSP 1509 A319 138
MCI 1510 A319 138
AUS 1536 A319 138
OMA 1539 A319 138
DFW 1559 A319 138
LAS 1630 A319 138
SAN 1630 A319 138
SEA 1630 A319 138
SFO 1635 A319 138
PHX 1638 A319 138
LAX 1645 A319 138
PDX 1645 A319 138
TYS 1711 A319 138
MKE 1758 A319 138
PHX 1807 A319 138
SLC 1807 A319 138
PDX 1810 A319 138
SFO 1815 A319 138
SMF 1817 A319 138
ANC 1820 A319 138
LAS 1830 A319 138
IND 1858 A319 138
ATL 1905 A319 138
HOU 1905 A319 138
DAY 1912 A319 138
DTW 1912 A319 138
BNA 1915 A319 138
STL 1915 A319 138
OMA 1953 A319 138
AUS 1955 A319 138
PHX 2110 A319 138
SEA 2110 A319 138
SNA 2110 A319 138
SMF 2115 A319 138
GEG 2120 A319 138
ABQ 2125 A319 138
SFO 2125 A319 138
SLC 2125 A319 138
LGA 700 A320 162
SEA 815 A320 162
PDX 825 A320 162
LAX 835 A320 162
PHL 1033 A320 162
STL 1038 A320 162
DTW 1040 A320 162
LGA 1045 A320 162
MCO 1045 A320 162
CUN 1055 A320 162
IND 1135 A320 162
DCA 1140 A320 162
SEA 1210 A320 162
IND 1455 A320 162
SLC 1502 A320 162
MKE 1515 A320 162
DCA 1630 A320 162
LGA 1645 A320 162
SEA 1810 A320 162
LAX 1815 A320 162
CAK 1907 A320 162
GRR 1925 A320 162
MCI 1950 A320 162
MSP 2002 A320 162
SAN 2110 A320 162
PDX 2115 A320 162
LAS 2127 A320 162
LAX 2127 A320 162
ABQ 806 E90 99
COS 807 E90 99
PHX 808 E90 99
BZN 820 E90 99
BIL 825 E90 99
DSM 1035 E90 99
MCI 1035 E90 99
ICT 1115 E90 99
COS 1220 E90 99
SBA 1255 E90 99
OMA 1305 E90 99
BZN 1315 E90 99
COS 1502 E90 99
DSM 1510 E90 99
OKC 1515 E90 99
FSD 1525 E90 99
DFW 1805 E90 99
PVU 1825 E90 99
MKE 1905 E90 99
SAT 1925 E90 99
ICT 1950 E90 99
OKC 1950 E90 99
DRO 818 Q400 74
COS 1043 Q400 74
ASE 1215 Q400 74
BIL 1310 Q400 74
DRO 1530 Q400 74
COS 1810 Q400 74
DRO 1945 Q400 74
COS 2120 Q400 74
19084



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2947 posts, RR: 30
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 15636 times:

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 11):
I still think MKE is dragging Frontier down. I checked a random date on September 14 to compare F9's DEN & MKE operation. MKE only has 10 Airbus departures compared to 114 in DEN. MKE has 4,495 daily seats, 23% of the 19,084 seats available in DEN. 47 of MKE's 66 daily flights are on 37/50 seat ERJ's. DEN has none of the smaller 37/50 seaters. DEN has 8 74-seat Q400 flights and the rest are E190's and larger.

Not to quibble, but you're missing a few Airbus flights operating on 9/14, plus your random date happens to be a mid-week September date where a few flights do not operate. On a typical September weekday there are 16 Airbus departures. There are also a couple of additional RJ flights in business markets which don't operate on Wednesdays. Here is a more representative September weekday Airbus listing:

750 ….. bos
803 ….. lga
805 ….. phx
810 ….. dca
912 ….. den
1040 ….. den
1332 ….. bos
1410 ….. lga
1415 ….. den
1431 ….. dca
1505 ….. den
1635 ….. las
1912 ….. den
1954 ….. bos
1955 ….. lga
2004 ….. dca

That aside, however...the larger picture that MKE is much smaller than DEN holds true. Yet...if MKE is such a relatively small portion of Frontier, that seemingly makes is all the harder to pass of Frontier's large loss as only a Milwaukee problem. Those of us who have followed Frontier for awhile recall that during the bankruptcy period there were regular monthly reports stating Frontier had an operating profit, and that was of course back when Frontier was essentially Denver only. However (1) an operating profit is not the same as a net profit...RAH overall posted a _$12.2m operating profit this quarter in spite of the large net loss, and (2) Fuel is higher and fares are softer in Denver than back then. It would hardly be a stretch to guess that Milwaukee did worse then Denver in this quarter. But a loss of this size in Q2 shows that it's more than MKE. And that's why, although there have been notable cuts in MKE, there is also the $120m restructuring plan.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7308 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15538 times:

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 11):

I still think MKE is dragging Frontier down.
Quoting knope2001 (Reply 12):
That aside, however...the larger picture that MKE is much smaller than DEN holds true. Yet...if MKE is such a relatively small portion of Frontier, that seemingly makes is all the harder to pass of Frontier's large loss as only a Milwaukee problem.

I was going to make the same point. We all agree that MKE is smaller, but that isn't correlated to what is losing money necessarily.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 11):
MKE only has 10 Airbus departures compared to 114 in DEN.
Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 11):
DEN has none of the smaller 37/50 seaters.

I do agree that DEN probably does better without the blight that the 37/50 seaters represent when fuel is this high. OTOH, the fare war in DEN now seems more intense than the fare war in MKE. I have no doubt that F9 will lose a lot of money on this fare war, maybe more than they lost in the hailstorm if you consider that was covered by insurance to some extent.


User currently offlinesideflare75 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15517 times:

Question. Do they count all the Republic and Chautauqua flying for Frontier as Frontier or part of the CPA? Thanks.

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7308 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15469 times:

CONFERENCE CALL

BB was point blank asked how the sale of 50.1% of F9 to a third party was going and he completely dodged it. He answered the question by saying "you are asking what % the labor groups will retain as part of the restructuring and those % are not determined". That complete dodge tells me that F9 is not really for sale and the whole concept of a sale of F9 was purely to create a crisis atmosphere in order to get labor concessions. I do agree that F9's results are very poor lately, but BB does not seem serious about selling F9.

He was also asked a follow-up about the effect of shutting down F9 if poor results persist and BB basically said "no comment" and that believe F9 will contribute value to the RJET shareholders going forward. It looks like they have quickly backed away from the comments of shutting down or selling F9. Good news.

BB specifically spoke about how WN's Colorado Day sale was specifically directed at them since "F9 owns Colorado Day". There was some thinly veiled anger about it.


User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1324 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15407 times:

Quoting sideflare75 (Reply 14):
Question. Do they count all the Republic and Chautauqua flying for Frontier as Frontier or part of the CPA? Thanks.

Yes. These are counted as Branded flights. This lead to a fairly significant reduction CPA flying and increase in "branded" flying about a year and a half ago. It is purely an accounting thing, and keeps things in better perspective IMO. I cant tell you how that effects each division, ie making branded look worse or better financially and same for CPA.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinemikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15377 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 15):
That complete dodge tells me that F9 is not really for sale and the whole concept of a sale of F9 was purely to create a crisis atmosphere in order to get labor concessions.

Frontier is not "For Sale." They are looking for investment that would reduce RJET's holding to under 50%. This doesn't necessarily mean that another entity would have 51% holding.

Quoting enilria (Reply 15):
He was also asked a follow-up about the effect of shutting down F9 if poor results persist and BB basically said "no comment" and that believe F9 will contribute value to the RJET shareholders going forward. It looks like they have quickly backed away from the comments of shutting down or selling F9. Good news.

This is good news. It means the board and company believe that the restructuring will help meet their profit goals and become a profit center for RJET instead of a cost center.


User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1311 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15367 times:

I realized I missed a few flights when I was compiling the MKE schedule, but I believe the point was made. It's still just a handful of large narrowbody body flights, a handful of E170/190 flights and around 70% of flights on the E135/E145. Is that a sustainable hub? Are there any examples of legacy hubs where that formula works? I can't think of any and if legacies aren't able to make that formula work with higher yields then how is a low fare model like F9 supposed to make it work? It seems there are many examples of old airline hubs that started out 2/3 mainline and 1/3 regional that flip flopped to 2/3 regional and 1/3 mainline to only close shop.

I would like F9 to build larger focus cities and fill some niches like FL did. There will be opportunities with the FL/WN merger. I'm not convinced at all that a traditional hub and spoke is working in MKE. It does work in DEN.

The high cost 37/50 seaters need to go. If MKE can only support 70% of their flights with 37/50 seaters to fill a very small proportionate number of 99 seats RJ's it just seems that it's time to rethink the viability of MKE as a hub (for any airline).



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1311 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15353 times:

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 17):
Frontier is not "For Sale." They are looking for investment that would reduce RJET's holding to under 50%. This doesn't necessarily mean that another entity would have 51% holding.

That is sort of the way I understand it. RAH holds 49%, F9 pilots say 10%, other F9 work groups 10% and sell 31% to some investment friends. I heard BB has those friends lined up. BB will still control the reigns.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6791 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15345 times:

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 16):
I cant tell you how that effects each division, ie making branded look worse or better financially and same for CPA.

It's tough to tell without knowing how they're allocating costs between the sides of the business; i.e. how much of Chautauqua's/Republic Airline's costs are being put on branded. If they're not allocating a CPA margin to the RP/YX flying done on branded's behalf, it makes the branded numbers look better than they might as a standalone enterprise.

Quoting enilria (Reply 15):
That complete dodge tells me that F9 is not really for sale and the whole concept of a sale of F9 was purely to create a crisis atmosphere in order to get labor concessions. I do agree that F9's results are very poor lately, but BB does not seem serious about selling F9.

I think the prospect of a sale of F9 was manufactured for the benefit of the Frontier pilots as a way to circumvent the seniority list integration with the RAH pilots. If RAH is not the majority owner of the company, then the single seniority list in the RAH pilots' contract does not apply, and the F9 pilots get to keep their shiny Airbuses to themselves. I can't see who would buy Frontier outside of private equity or without a significant restructuring. The E190 flying under CPA is a deal-breaker for virtually every other U.S. carrier, and there's no way that B6, NK or WN would keep the ERJ flying.

Quoting enilria (Reply 15):
BB specifically spoke about how WN's Colorado Day sale was specifically directed at them since "F9 owns Colorado Day". There was some thinly veiled anger about it.

Obviously a message that Southwest is not going to let up on the pressure.


User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1738 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15339 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 15):
BB was point blank asked how the sale of 50.1% of F9 to a third party was going and he completely dodged it. He answered the question by saying "you are asking what % the labor groups will retain as part of the restructuring and those % are not determined". That complete dodge tells me that F9 is not really for sale and the whole concept of a sale of F9 was purely to create a crisis atmosphere in order to get labor concessions. I do agree that F9's results are very poor lately, but BB does not seem serious about selling F9

It may simply be nothing more than they don't have any one lined up, or any interest, in the Frontier stake at this time but he doesn't want to say that...and if that's true, I don't blame him.


User currently onlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15230 times:

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 18):
I would like F9 to build larger focus cities and fill some niches like FL did.

What are your ideas for success? Just last night I was tossing around the idea of CAK, SDF, CLE or possibly even TYS as focus city in middle America. I mention TYS only because WN does not fly there. TYS may be a little to far south to be successful though. I do think any focus city needs to be east of the Mississippi River.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 18):
I'm not convinced at all that a traditional hub and spoke is working in MKE. It does work in DEN.

Concur I think F9 has most to all of their eggs in one basket by having significant operations in two operating bases where winter weather could potentially bring all Ops to a halt. DCA being the exception IMO DEN is more successful from DEN going west, Mexico and Central America.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1311 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15202 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 23):
What are your ideas for success? Just last night I was tossing around the idea of CAK, SDF, CLE or possibly even TYS as focus city in middle America. I mention TYS only because WN does not fly there. TYS may be a little to far south to be successful though. I do think any focus city needs to be east of the Mississippi River.

When I say focus city I don't mean anything even as big as MCI. MKE should be cut down to a large focus city. Besides those 2 big obvoius cities I'd like to see a connecting of Eastern dots in places like IND, PIT, GSO, MSY, PHF, MOB, TYS, SAV & PIE. PIE connections to the Caribbean

And nothing smaller than an E190

[Edited 2011-08-02 11:20:32]


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently onlineridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15178 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
Obviously a message that Southwest is not going to let up on the pressure.

You are so right on that, and I do believe they will turn it on even higher. $24.00 DEN to SLC, that hasn't happened since Texas International was around.


25 mcg : Personally, I think Frontier lives and dies in Denver. The idea of using a focus city to achieve geographic diversity is sort of appealing, but the on
26 CarsAir04 : Which also shows that they don't care about losing money in Denver as they have since they restarted service, but its more about getting rid of F9.
27 ridgid727 : It's known as survival of the fittest. That whole different animal should know that very very well, being in the wild etc. Its OK for F9 to have a sa
28 CarsAir04 : Not saying that at all. But from what I read on a.net its ok for WN to have a sale for $24 but when F9 has one for the $9.99 it becomes, they must be
29 usflyer msp : Is F9 still wet leasing planes to cover for storm damaged aircraft? I noticed that an SY 738 was operating their 6:30 MSP-DEN this morning. Everyone w
30 kingcavalier : They are. There were no flights on Sunday but had 2 yesterday and 3 today I believe. It's to cover a/c N906FR which is still out of service. I believ
31 bjorn14 : If someone offered BB $100MM for F9 he'd take it in a NY minute or be fired by the BOD.
32 kingcavalier : UA might be taking the brunt of the WN/F9 battle in DEN. The discussions always seem to revolve around WN/F9 but there is another hub carrier in DEN,
33 mikefrommke : While UA has definitely felt the effects of both of these airlines, they have not been the initiator in any recent fare sales, especially the ultra l
34 jmy007 : haven't seen it mentioned yet, but as of this morning, Southwest is matching the $9.99 o/w to ABQ. Well they price it as $10. Still, that's super che
35 enilria : Listen to the question from the conference call. The way he answers the question clearly implies that the only other equity holders will be employees
36 Post contains links ScottB : Perhaps it's a bit of payback for Bryan Bedford's comments here: http://www.9news.com/money/209230/34...restructuring-Southwest-Airlines-v Or the str
37 kingcavalier : I think you're right now. I heard today that there isn't an investor lined up and could be a year or more before any deal is put in place. I think th
38 n7371f : Yes, it didn't take long for the IBT to make more enemies. I think a lot of people saw this coming from a mile away. This is the kind of cronyism tha
39 n7371f : How could the strategy change after Southwest's actions during Frontier's bankruptcy were undeniably clear they were trying to drive a rival out?
40 adamblang : All along, the word has been make a good faith effort reduce Republic's ownership of Frontier to a minority share by December 31st, 2014. I don't kno
41 Post contains links kingcavalier : IBT sued Wednesday in federal court to block the concession agreement reached with the F9 pilots. http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/ne...nver+%28Denve
42 kingcavalier : Does anyone know the real basis of the IBT suit? Does the suit have merit? It seems from an outsider's point of view that the IBT is simply not happy
43 enilria : I hadn't noticed that, but you may be right. Funny he refers to WN as "3rd" when F9 is truly third now. That's been the strategy since Ted died. Agre
44 Post contains images ScottB : That "good faith effort" statement is a loophole large enough to fly an A380 through. If RAH were to be unable to find an outside buyer for a stake i
45 enilria : That is truly crazy, but you are correct. Yes things look bad and that is why WN decided to launch their Colorado Day fare war...to drain cash from F
46 kingcavalier : The good argument is F9 branded is not 3 regionals all doing the same thing. It makes sense for the regionals to be under one combined seniority due
47 Post contains links flyinryan99 : Frontier / Denver Targeted for TOL's SCASD Grant. http://www.toledoblade.com/local/201...-for-Toledo-to-Denver-flights.html I have not seen the applic
48 ScottB : Except that the line gets very, very blurry when you're seeing YX doing E190 flying under an internal CPA, while JetBlue and US Airways fly E190's as
49 point2point : F9 seems to have some luck in making the Ohio stations of DAY and CAK work out pretty well. Maybe there's just something in Ohio that could also make
50 Tigerguy : In market share, yes, but in terms of who got to DEN when, WN is the "third competitor". Mind, the point is WN is a handful to deal with under the ci
51 slcdeltarumd11 : I think theres also another option that UA just shrinks the DEN hub and moves capacity to other hubs I doubt that Frontier looks very attractive to a
52 bjorn14 : I think it could be a hub. F9 could charge the same as WN but from COS and not directly compete with them. The (more affluent) western & southern
53 kingcavalier : F9's MKE operation looks like Independence Air II. I can't find any low fare airlines operating 37/50 seat RJ's. It's time for Shurz and team to make
54 Post contains links kingcavalier : And I'm not sure if anyone saw this but F9 issued a release yesterday saying they are truly DEN's low fare leader. http://media.frontierairlines.com/a
55 n7371f : Well this press release isn't written for financial analysts - it's for customers. So this is a great thing!
56 kingcavalier : A great thing for customers, yes, but you don't think an analyst would read it? I read it as we aren't able to charge more for our product.
57 FlyPNS1 : You are exactly correct. It's F9's fundamental problem. They have arguably a superior product to WN and they are a hometown carrier with supposedly l
58 kingcavalier : A short term gain for customers with cheap fares could be a long term problem if Frontier goes out of business because they can't charge enough to co
59 FlyPNS1 : Very true, but customers don't usually think with that type of long-term horizon in mind. If F9 were to fail, fares in DEN would go up, though with W
60 sunking737 : King, Does Frontier have F/C? If not maybe they should as WN does not.
61 kingcavalier : They do not, and I've always wanted them to. I'm not a fan of Stretch. It isn't really any better than B6's or WN's normal seat pitch. Now that FL wi
62 OzarkD9S : They could take a page from FL and introduce a proper Biz Class. That incremental revenue adds up. Would have loved to seen the numbers for FL and th
63 ScottB : It also raises questions like: Why is it cheaper to fly to Los Angeles on Frontier than it is to fly to Aspen on Frontier? Why are Frontier tickets c
64 mikefrommke : Press releases are for the press. The DEN local news media I'm sure got this and F9 would love them to run a story on it. That was the point. I could
65 enilria : I guess they will look for any excuse to call them "3rd". That one is flimsy. Age is the least important item in rankings. The market was a blip yest
66 ScottB : You know, you're exactly right -- it's a bunch of orphaned small RJ's along with a handful of mainline-size aircraft. With fuel prices being even hig
67 n7371f : Frontier looked at First Class a handful of times under Sam Addoms and Jeff Potter...looked very hard at it. They could not make the connection betwee
68 slcdeltarumd11 : E-470 is so expensive the average person aka low fare chaser doesn't take it when they arn't running late which is why they have to charge 8.70 EACH W
69 knope2001 : The comparison to Independence is an interesting one indeed, but look at details before drawing broad-brush conclusions. A key problem with DH was th
70 ScottB : On the basis of O&D YIELD, yes, the RP markets out of MKE do a lot better than DH out of IAD. However, many of these markets are minuscule in ter
71 FRNT787 : There are 5 E145s in the F9 fleet that are temporary replacements of E170s. There are more 50 seat RJs than they want, but it had to be that way to g
72 tztristar500 : Current pitch is 30/31 so its not possible to add a B/C cabin without losing total seats. To add 8 B/C in a 2X2, I estimate losing a row plus 4 or 10
73 kingcavalier : Only rows 5 and back have 31" pitch. The first 4 rows have 34" or more. Two rows of business class seats would replace the current rows 1 and 2. Noth
74 tztristar500 : The first four rows are 36" and if that pitch is kept, then you are correct that no rows would probably be lost, but B/C seats are larger than econom
75 Post contains images rampart : ! This is what I've been saying for years, and not just for COS or just for F9. Airlines look at these small and medium size markets as excuses to ja
76 knope2001 : The size of the market is only meaningful in terms of the capacity offered compared to the traffic. The DH markets from Washington were much larger,
77 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Only you would twist it this way, Enilria. He said "a". As in, one of three. Uh, I don't think that's a newsflash. F9 has been on and off the ropes f
78 YXwatcherMKE : I have been re framing from saying anything on the F9 threads lately but I had to put my two cents in on these subject.... I agree, if your going to g
79 Post contains images FutureUScapt : Look for F9 to announce two new destinations this week
80 YXwatcherMKE : Any Idea as from what city/cities? Or is going to be DEN?
81 MSYtristar : F9 has moved up the start date of DEN-MSY when it resumes in the Fall. Originally it was supposed to resume on 14Nov, but now it's coming back on 06Oc
82 YXwatcherMKE : OK I'm not familiar with the term "YBH" what does that mean? I also I'm guessing that the 'X' means the forth day is not yet set.
83 enilria : These days I don't think the expectation is that anybody "buys" F class. It is fully justified by creating a loyalty in customers that causes them to
84 bjorn14 : No. That means the the flight will not operate on Tue.,Wed., or Sat. X=except. YBH will be the fare classes offered.
85 YXwatcherMKE : Oh boy, I need sleep big time, I should have realized that!
86 mikefrommke : Hopefully some place warm!
87 kingcavalier : Like Toledo, OH, Roatan, Honduras or Belize City, Belize
88 CarsAir04 : I would be the first to get on one of these!
89 FutureUScapt : Both will be from DEN One will meet those qualifications; the other, not so much - or at least it wouldn't qualify as one on a year-round basis.
90 YXwatcherMKE : Too, too bad! It would have been nice to have one or both also fly out of MKE or MCI. But It just does not seem possible lately. I can't wait for F9
91 sideflare75 : DCA was at the top of the list in terms of revenue producing routes for Midwest. For WN to pull out of that one route alone would be huge for F9. My
92 Post contains images mariner : Taking a minority stake does not necessarily mean selling the whole company - or losing control - as when BB first raised the possibility of a minori
93 Post contains images YXwatcherMKE : As far as I'm concern BWI is not a good Substitute. for DCA at all. If WN would move that service to MDW it would make BB's day. We make that trip 4
94 Post contains images mariner : I thought it happened when oil hit $110 plus, but I could be wrong. Very happy to be corrected, but I don't recall when BB actually said that Frontie
95 Post contains links mariner : I may have missed some posts catching up, so I'll suggest deletion if this has already been posted, let me know - ICT going to E190: http://www.bizjou
96 PlanesNTrains : I was addressing your comment, not theirs. What they choose to do is up to them. -Dave
97 Tigerguy : Well, I haven't the foggiest what pax numbers are like in Wichita, though I have no reason to think against the article. (Mind you, it's past one in
98 mikefrommke : Nice to see. I doubt they had many other options though, unless they planned to fly an E45 MKE-ICT-DEN and back. So DEN-TOL and DEN- Warm. I realize
99 yellowtail : Here's hoping for DEN-BZE....though I highly doubt it.
100 flyinryan99 : We haven't received the SCASD Grant and at that F9 has not even committed to service. I haven't seen the actual application, but the article stated F
101 knope2001 : Looks like these are new markets -- not sure if this is the whole list. DEN-PSP DEN-LIT MSN-MCO DSM-MCO DSM-TPA MKE-TPA replaces MKE-PIE OMA-TPA repla
102 kingcavalier : The poster above said both new markets would be from DEN. So, of your list, only PSP and LIT are options. I doubt LIT will come back, but who knows.
103 azstar : Didn't they fly DEN-LIT, and suspend it twice? Third time the charm, maybe?
104 RJNUT : All the flights Knope posted are correct and loaded intoFrontiers system!
105 kingcavalier : OK then. That's pretty cool. MSN-MCO? DSM-MCO? It doesn't look good for PIE, though.
106 Post contains links mikefrommke : Intro fares for the new routes:
107 Post contains links mikefrommke : Apparently I broke it. Trying again: http://www.frontierairlines.com/fron...ne-deals-details.do?name=ebspecial
108 kingcavalier : DEN - PSP A319 operates MQ DEN - LIT E190 operates XJ DSM - MCO E190 operates WJ DSM - TPA E190 operates QS MSN - MCO E190 operates MF
109 Post contains links mikefrommke : Looks like some frequency bumps as well: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fro...gs-2011-08-08?reflink=MW_news_stmp
110 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : I'm assuming new means something not previously served and thereafter discontinued and now resuming. BOS meets the half warm and the "not so much" cr
111 ScottB : That's what I was thinking... though I thought they had only dropped LIT once when the E170's were dumped during bankruptcy. The schedule isn't great
112 yellowtail : Yep with all the headaches he has right now, I would agree. Though the reward would be high, they will have to take much of the risk themselves. All
113 mastyc : I think, not totally sure that LIT only got cancelled once. TUL was the the one that was off and on.
114 mke717spotter : That was a total mistake and I don't know why they even bothered moving over there in the first place.
115 mikefrommke : I think it was an attempt to see if they could get a fare premium by going to an alternate airport where there wasn't direct competition. Obviously t
116 GentFromAlaska : Although I haven't compared schedules these two should be interesting in that G4 offers service from DSM-SFB and DSM-PIE
117 packcheer : I use DSM as my airport of choice... (haha, it's the only one within a 3 and a half hor drive) I'll take a F9 E190 instead of G4 anyday
118 kingcavalier : It looks like PSP will be served with both the A319 and E190. I'm most excited to see DSM and MSN getting nonstop Florida service. It seems F9 is bett
119 point2point : Has F9 updated their route map yet. I don't see anything new on their "static" route map, and this map is getting to look very busy. Does F9 still hav
120 gigneil : I'll take whatever bets you have. UA will not close DEN. Was this a serious question, Scott? The nation's capital vs a secondary airport situated bet
121 kingcavalier : I agree. I hate F9's route map. The only interactive route map I saw was on the frontiermidwest.com web site during the integration, but that web sit
122 GentFromAlaska : I tend to agree with 2 x 2 seating over a mad-dog 80
123 Post contains images point2point : Yes, that is the one that I remember. Why did they do away with it? It was there, and just needed updating and to be moved over to the F9 main site,
124 Post contains links point2point : As usual, F9, the Qs, and service to ASE get press again... http://www.aspendailynews.com/section/home/148443 Somewhere along the line, I remember tha
125 slcdeltarumd11 : I am sure ASE is extremely profitable which is why they keep a plane type for one city. Frontier needs to generate cash so im sure as much of a pain
126 gigneil : I hate Mike Boyd. Lynx was a flop because of Republic. Not because of Lynx. Flying the Q400 on routes around the intermountain West and the 64 miles
127 ScottB : Read the context They tout being "Denver's low-fare leader" though the fares aren't really always low. ASE is being kept because the deal to sell the
128 Post contains links and images mariner : Well, I had fun with all that. Sorry if no one else did. MSN-MCO has long been a wish of mine. MSN-LAS next, please, pretty please? And the success o
129 mikefrommke : Low and lowest are 2 different things. Why be way lower when you only need to be a little lower? In markets where they can garner a premium, they sho
130 mikefrommke : They added a frequency on both MSN-DEN and DEN-LAS on some days so I'm sure there will be numerous connections including via MKE.
131 YXwatcherMKE : I also don't care for Boyd's F9's comments, I'm of the opinion that if he talks about F9 it is always be negative or he won't say anything at all abu
132 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : The connections are fine, but not nearly as interesting as a nonstop. I'd love to see some P2P additions like they've been announcing. Add GRR to the
133 AvSafety46 : The Q's made money at all the mountain west airports. In a one airport they had the highest load factors but were ran out by the airport with the high
134 Post contains images bjorn14 : August 31st is the last day to sign up for new members EarlyReturns 1,000 mile bonus. They will have to address the tarmac/apron situation as it gets
135 Post contains links and images mariner : Trying to catch up with stuff, I am puzzled about DSM. Airtran flies - or used to fly - DSM-MCO and I haven't found a press release that it has ended.
136 mikefrommke : I think this goes with the theory that DSM-MKE will eventually turn into DSM-MDW for WN.
137 Post contains links point2point : Leave it to MKE to commission a 'study' - that shows 92% of adult travelers who used alternative airports would do so again. The reasons cited are low
138 bahadir : Lynx was a flop because of Lynx. The start up costs was among the reasons for F9 Ch.11. You start up a new carrier and spend millions with crews that
139 bjorn14 : Are they going to drive to MDW or RFD? My sister lives on the WI/IL state line and she won't drive to either place. MKE is most convenient for her.
140 flyinryan99 : Bingo. To create a new company to fly these obviously was questionable. The strategy of flying the Q400s in the Mountain West, I think, was a great i
141 GentFromAlaska : I can proudly say when I have a choice I'm part of that 19% Choice is good!
142 mikefrommke : I'm driving down the SAT from AUS on friday to catch a cheaper flight to MKE.
143 FWAERJ : Some markets, particularly smaller ones, have even higher percentages that look for alternative airports. In the case of FWA, where the alternate is
144 ScottB : The "less stress" argument would typically apply to an alternate airport for a bigger airport in a large metro area; i.e. HPN, ISP, BUR, SNA, LGB, ON
145 smoot4208 : So out of curiosity, is F9 receiving subsidies in LIT or PSP? I get that they are choosing non WN markets (I think WN will eventually start DEN-LIT) b
146 PlanesNTrains : Not directly related, but I always thought that WN would enter the FAT market sooner than later. It certainly isn't as exciting as some of their othe
147 mariner : FAT did great in summer last time Frontier tried it but really, really fell off a cliff in the winter months, it became unsustainable at the time. Not
148 n7371f : They had that chance when they bought Morris Air in '94 didn't they? I recall Morris serving Fresno. Maybe I'm confusing it with another similar size
149 PlanesNTrains : I think Morris Air did serve Fresno, but I feel that that was a lifetime ago for WN. The city - and the airline has had the better part of 20 years t
150 Post contains images mariner : In what may be a small triumph of cartography, they've managed to squeeze the new routes and cities onto the route map: It's getting a bit crowded her
151 knope2001 : For what it's worth, MKE-LAS is showing a second A319 nonstop 11-17 thru 12-21, daily except Sunday the first few weeks, and then running x37 the rest
152 mikefrommke : I particularly love that the OMA-MCO and OMA-TPA routes cross over themselves in Georgia!
153 F9Animal : I have to chime in on this one!!! PSP is a market that I have been longing and wishing Frontier would FINALLY fly to. Plenty of potential there, and
154 YXwatcherMKE : You wonder how they would do at MKE? I have strong feeling that they would do just do fine with a 3 a week schedule. There is a lot of "old" money (a
155 smoot4208 : Seems like saturday MKE-PSP service may end up being a better route than MKE-TUS
156 sunking737 : SY has been flying to PSP from MSP for several years, during the winter does very well.
157 smoot4208 : BTW, I noticed MKE-TUS is not on the route map even as seasonal. I guess they don't intend to fly in this year
158 Post contains images YXwatcherMKE : To bad MKE-TUS is not returning but I know why that route failed. I like TUS over PHX, however that route needed to be at least twice a week service
159 Post contains images mariner : I'm pretty cheerful about it, too, F9Animal - even quite gay! But I wonder - given that Palm Springs is such a big gay resort, if they'll make any ou
160 YXwatcherMKE : Really? Did not know that about PSP.
161 Post contains links mariner : It isn't San Fran, Amsterdam or Sydney, but it is still quite famous: http://www.palmspringsgayinfo.com/index.htm It's a big time winter (gay) resort
162 F9Animal : ROFL!!! Oh mariner! F9 should reach out to the community, as it is what brings them business. I would love to see F9 do more of this! How about BB pu
163 smoot4208 : Could MSN-LAS possibly be in the works? Seem like that could do well. At least if DL didn't retaliate
164 bjorn14 : I also think LAS and OAK could work too.
165 F9Animal : No doubt that MSN-LAS would work. But, I really think it is a long shot literally. I still think they should look at island flying!!!!!
166 smoot4208 : Some guy on the MCI route thread said they will be from F9? Any ideas from the F9 insiders?
167 smoot4208 : YX did well on their MCI-SNA/MSN routes before they started slashing everything. I don't think there are any slots left to issue though to SNA. I real
168 Post contains images mariner : Sooner or later they have to go up against the Big Gorilla at MCI and I hope it is sooner rather than later. So given what has already been announced
169 smoot4208 : They could probably do FLL and still compete with WN.
170 smoot4208 : They could probably do FLL and still compete with WN. As for the west, WN only has 1 daily to OAK,and UA has only 1 daily to SFO. They probably wouldn
171 mariner : Frontier already flies MCI-SFO. I'd be happy if they took on MCI-LAS or SAN or PHX. I'd be happy if they took on MCI-MCO or TPA - or, I guess, FLL. m
172 SANFan : YX never served SNA from MCI or anywhere. Perhaps you are thinking of SAN-MCI, which was served 2X daily during the last couple of years before they
173 Post contains images SANFan : And Mariner, in a totally unrelated and separate topic..., what do your little birds tell you about the OMA-LA/SD service that is "seasonally suspende
174 Post contains links jpetekyxmd80 : Actually, they did. You have to go further back than a few years. This was in the 03-05 range I think. The spotters out there did a very good job of
175 Post contains images SANFan : Well son of a gun, I stand corrected and apologize. I checked what I have in front of me (flight sked's and route maps) but they only go back to earl
176 mariner : All I hear is what has been said, SANFan - that OMA-LAX/SAN are presently planned to return in the spring. My guess - and it is only a semi-educated
177 SANFan : Well, thanks. Since all 4 of the routes (OMA-PIE/MCO & OMA-LAX/SAN) started together in Jan and Feb of this year using just one plane, I guess th
178 mariner : Oh, probably and certainly for the earlier winter months. I think the greater concern would have been the cost of nursing the OMA-West routes through
179 azstar : MCI was Expressjet's most successful route from TUS with average load factor of 85%, they told me when I flew it. TUS-MCI-MKE would be very successful
180 smoot4208 : Someone already called me nuts, but MCI-TUS would not shock me. Especially not after they tried MKE-TUS. It's much cheaper for F9 to connect the dots
181 Post contains links and images Tigerguy : Here's a little news flash about the goings-on at FSD: http://www.kdlt.com/index.php?option...task=view&id=11249&Itemid=57#video It goes on to
182 sunking737 : SY still has a plane flying subservice for Frontier, so it must not be done yet.
183 knope2001 : Updates to the schedule related to this are loaded. The new mid-day MKE-LAS flight at 13:05 now has a matching return getting back to MKE at 21:05. T
184 Post contains images GentFromAlaska : My A FLL-SEA P2P would be great; connecting two of the large cruise ship embarkation points. SEA for Alaska cruises and FLL for the Carribean. WN off
185 pilotfox : Does anyone have any fleet updates? With the new E190s starting to come online next month I would imagine some must already be under production.
186 Post contains links FRNT787 : Well, the new Kansas City service was announced today: Nonstop E190 service to Las Vegas and Houston. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fro...ty-2011-0
187 Post contains images mariner : MCI-LAS makes me a very happy camper. MCI-HOU took me by surprise. mariner
188 SANFan : PHX I'm sure, and undoubtedly more Florida... bb
189 FRNT787 : I could definitely see some Florida routes come to play. The build up in Florida has been quite noticeable, and I would be surprised if it did not ex
190 sunking737 : Could MCI become another hub? DEN/MKE/MCI What does everyone think?
191 Post contains links adamblang : You'll notice Frontier's route map has had a hub dot on MCI for some time: http://www.frontierairlines.com/fron...t/pages/shared/largeFlightMap.html
192 mikefrommke : I'm pretty sure its been labeled a hub for a long long time especially in YX's system. Now, they may not have emphasized connections as much recently
193 yellowtail : So the move from IAH has been a good one I guess.
194 sunking737 : Several folks have said move DEN to COS, I think they should build up MCI to take pressure off DEN.
195 Post contains images F9Animal : MCI is indeed going to get more service. MCI has been a very good city for F9. I am very happy to see some of the latest moves made by F9. MCI will c
196 mariner : I guess. I think it's an interesting one because I've never paid much attention to IAH or HOU. Checking it now I see MCI-IAH is a whole slew of RJ's
197 Post contains links mariner : I'd like to think so, too. I am slightly puzzled that MCI-TUS does not appear on the Southwest route map, but according to Wiki it is a destination S
198 Post contains images point2point : ...but on the similar Wiki site for the Tuscon Airport, WN destinations are listed as: Albuquerque, Chicago-Midway, Denver, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, S
199 knope2001 : Midwest did to MKE-HOU in 2005 and it only lasted four months. However: (1) It was started in late summer and barely got rolling in time for the pred
200 mikefrommke : As much as I'd love to see AUS-MKE and HOU-MKE, with easy connections in MCI to MKE I'm sure they get enough of what would be the O/D traffic. One do
201 mke717spotter : I know it doesn't really qualify as nonstop service, but I have seen onestop TUS-MCI flights in the past, mostly through DEN or ABQ. Look I go to U o
202 Post contains images point2point : Let's remember that F9 has both several UA and WN flights to compete with on the DEN-TUS route, as from MCI there would presently be no competition.
203 SANFan : All this talk about MCI-TUS in the last couple of days. I'm a bit confused by it. Yes, it's a route with no n/s service; why? As you yourself, p-2-p,
204 Post contains images FRNT787 : Very nice. Im up at school in Prescott myself so we have choice between Great Lakes to LAX or Great Lakes to Farmington connecting to DEN. I have mad
205 point2point : It doesn't have to be daily. F9 is finding that out. 3-4 times a week could suit this pretty well, and then increase as the traffic grows, and that 5
206 ScottB : Actually, I believe Katrina was a boon to cruise traffic out of Galveston, as New Orleans was out of commission as a cruise port for an extended peri
207 SANFan : However, for example, F9 started SAN-OMA service this summer, with 3x weekly flights; PDEW for 4Q10 in that market was 109. LAX-OMA was started as we
208 azstar : No airline fills their flights with O&D passengers from TUS. If they depended on O & D, AA would have one flight a day to DFW, not 8, and the
209 kingcavalier : I received a copy of Bedford's employee letter and some of his comments should give MKE concern. 70% of MKE's flying is on the E135/E145. Without the
210 MSYtristar : I see BB states that the E70s will be gone by 10/1, however I see them in the schedules in November and beyond operating to MCI, MKE, MSY, AUS, SAT,
211 Post contains links point2point : I'm not sure that this qualifies exactly as F9/RAH material, but from the DEN newsletter that I received today, they show that they now have WebTrak,
212 Post contains images mariner : I can always be wrong but I doubt BB would give up on MKE as easily as that. While I was in Oz I had the opportunity to take a closer look of the res
213 mikefrommke : While I'd love to see them rethink the Q decision, I think it will only happen if they can find another carrier to sign a CPA with RJET for Q flying
214 F9Animal : MKE will likely get some reductions. However, we forget that additional 190's are coming. I can see a few 190's taking the place of some 140/145's. Wh
215 MCI10 : I would love a Caribbean flight too!
216 Post contains images GentFromAlaska : I have my MKE-BNA MCI-BOS in lieu of BNA-MKE-BOS using any metal would be a welcomed route.
217 enilria : I think you are right. Here is the irony. In order to "keep" the Q400s they need a CPA agreement to have a viable fleet size and get economies of sca
218 FRNT787 : They tried to get CPA contracts for Q400 routes. No airlines were interested at all. So the decision was made to remove the Q400 fleet, of which one
219 mikefrommke : Don't forget the CSeries. The issue with going this route is without anything smaller than the E90, they will most likely have to dump a lot of the s
220 kingcavalier : But if they can't make money with the smaller jets to smaller markets then they should pull out anyways. The smaller communities are enjoying the Fro
221 ScottB : It's not going to happen. The UA/CO pilots don't even want the 70-seat outsourced flying to continue. The relationship with Bombardier has got to be
222 mariner : It may be tricky, but I still say he is "in deep" with Bombardier - and deeper, perhaps, precisely because of the Neo order. I think the whole future
223 Post contains links mariner : I've suggested before (a lot!) that I'd love to see DEN-STS, so one of the SCASD applications is particularly interesting to me: 2011 DOT S.C.A.S.D Gr
224 PlanesNTrains : We always yearn to see "what's new" each day, such as who's buying who, flying where, acquiring what, etc. It all seems to move so fast. FWIW, as dra
225 YXwatcherMKE : I am going to vent/rant some here about how BB and his planners have treated MKE. You know that BB and others talk about how the E135/145's is 70% of
226 F9Animal : You answered your own question below!!! See above!!! We need more 190's to accomplish the MKE mess. Time and patience. Yes and no... With oil prices
227 knope2001 : A couple of assumptions are being made, and then those assumptions are combined to reach a conclusion that Milwaukee will be cut back to just 15-20 Ai
228 GentFromAlaska : Oil has taken a significant hit in the last 2-3 weeks. A bbl of WTC is pricing in the mid $80's. Today (08-18-11) oil in the U.S. commodity markets h
229 F9Animal : WTI has taken a hit. Brent is still above $100. Sadly, refiners changed to Brent prices. According to Bedford, the price paid on jet fuel is off of B
230 enilria : Very true except they do not "need" to keep them flying. BB could park them. He has clearly been bent toward flying them regardless of the results. I
231 LAXintl : A little oil lesson. In recent years WTI (West Texas Intermediate) and Brent (North Sea) futures prices have diverged. Its felt by most, that the US
232 Post contains links mariner : I'm slightly surprised that anyone would interpret it as the latter. Before the restructure was announced I said I wanted to see MKE sorted out and l
233 Post contains links mariner : And news of the ASE runway extension which, for six days at least, is pretty good news for Frontier: http://www.aspendailynews.com/section/home/148604
234 smoot4208 : Looking at the SCASD applications, it looks like SMX, STS, MDT, TOL, and Ogden are all targeting F9 service to DEN
235 Post contains images point2point : Seems like F9 is involved in a number of SCASD filings. So far from what I see is STS, CPR, OGD, and MHT all seeking new n/s service to DEN, while GRB
236 flyinryan99 : Could be a healthy pay day for F9. I personally think these are some of the markets F9 needs to mix in with other major markets to differentiate them
237 knope2001 : I agree with your point in general...when we're talking about flights which only feed connecting traffic. F9* is down to exactly two of those shortly
238 Post contains images point2point : It looks as though your post got on as I was writing mine. I think though that SMX is looking at UA. But maybe if UA doesn't want it, maybe F9 would
239 ScottB : I disagree with you here, specifically because of this statement (emphasis added): As he speaks of "planning efforts" rather than phrasing along the
240 Post contains images mariner : Which - I think - is the best news for MKE. I know everyone loves growth and expansion, but sometimes it can be counter-productive, as we have seen a
241 GentFromAlaska : Interesting, some seven years ago when the JNU (Juneau) runway was under construction they allowed AS 732 & 734 to arrive and depart using an apr
242 GentFromAlaska : One must learn to crawl before walking. It would be F9 first ever Caribbean destination right which is a start!. I'm curious if the fine folks in PUJ
243 ScottB : ASE's taxiway doesn't run the full length of the runway; moreover, there are structures far too close to the taxiway to get the FAA to sign off on th
244 Post contains links mhkansan : Is there any rhyme or reason to the hub denotations on the F9 route map? http://www.frontierairlines.com/fron...t/pages/shared/largeFlightMap.html Den
245 Post contains images floridaflyboy : Just a fun bit of information, you can all expect a return of the F9 interactive route map in the very near future, something I know many on here have
246 Post contains links tripleboom : Anyone know if any F9 aircraft were impacted by last night's hail storms in Omaha? Apparently softball sized hail damaged 7 aircraft, injured a WN pil
247 kingcavalier : In another thread someone said F9 diverted a MKE and a DEN flight to MCI during the storm, so it seems like F9 dodged this bullet.
248 enilria : Interestingly, I read BB's comments to a VP at another airline regarding jet fuel not following oil downward in the last two months and the exec said
249 adamblang : You can make sensible connections, and a number of them, in DEN, MKE, MCI, and OMA. You'd be crazy to fly DEN-MCO-MSN, MKE-LAS-MCI, or SLC-CUN-IND (i
250 kingcavalier : F9 does fly A319 3 X a day from MKE to BOS. I can't speak for Mariner but I never took what he said as saying RFD-CUN wasn't doable without DEN-RFD. B
251 floridaflyboy : No, BOS does have F9 mainline Airbus service to MKE.
252 mariner : Since you've quoted me - and still putting words in my mouth - I'll respond. What you attribute to me is not what I said and I still haven't mentione
253 PlaneAdmirer : Can the next thread not use the word "New" in the title? At 25 threads of rougly 250 comments each, aren't we past the point of "new?"
254 bjorn14 : Would that be RJ frames? STS rnwy is only 5,115 ' Contracts haven't stopped a lot of carriers from quitting EAS routes. Do we have a resolution on th
255 mikefrommke : The "New" part isn't for the threads, it is the New Frontier, as in the new phase of Frontier's history. I don't think it matters either way. I'm sur
256 enilria : Really? I'm shocked they have that much capacity on the route. I would have thought it was E190s or worse. I wonder if it is profitable.
257 Post contains images mariner : I've no idea, I'm not technical. I assume that since Frontier and STS have discussed it, it is possible, but I don't know the details. I'm sure the t
258 CarsAir04 : why does it have to be disappointment for you? why cant it be, that's great they can have the airbus on this route and that it works well for them, b
259 GentFromAlaska : For clarification my response was too.
260 point2point : Just to recap the SCASD filings posted on another thread here, F9 is involved with 8 of them it seems. STS, SBN, TOL, MDT, OGD, and CPR all want new F
261 Post contains links Tigerguy : We have a new thread: New Frontier/Republic #26. Please continue your discussions there. Thanks! If the mods would archive this thread, that would be
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