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Jetstar Plans Subsidiary At HKG Tapping China Mkt  
User currently offlineflythere From Hong Kong, joined May 2010, 443 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7782 times:

Quote:

HONG KONG (MarketWatch) -- Australia's Jetstar Group plans to launch a Hong Kong-based budget airline focused on mainland China routes and has started discussions with the city's government to apply for an air operator's certificate, the Apple Daily reported Thursday, citing unnamed sources.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/aus...08-03

This would well be something huge that Walsh gonna talk about towards the end of this month!
If it happens, we can imagine an even larger fleet base at HKG than SIN as there are more cities and population covered within 4 hour radius.   

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejonathanxxxx From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 673 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7790 times:

CX must be very happy about this.....

User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7706 times:

Yeah, what the hell is QF in Oneworld for if they're going to get their subsidiary to go head to head with alliance partner's own subsidiary?

August 24th is going to be an interesting day.


User currently offlineTN486 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 941 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7674 times:

Quoting flythere (Thread starter):
Walsh

Who??? Do you mean Alan Joyce??



remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
User currently offlinewinglets747 From Australia, joined Mar 2007, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7608 times:
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Jetstar is quasi-denying this report and Qantas did not know about this "development".

That aside, CX and QF have been far from friends.



Stay hungry. Stay foolish.
User currently offlineaquariusHKG From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2010, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7539 times:

Quoting winglets747 (Reply 4):

That aside, CX and QF have been far from friends.

Opening a subsidy in your partner's home base won't help the relationship


User currently offlinejoelyboy911 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2009, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7540 times:

Quoting tayser (Reply 2):
get their subsidiary to go head to head with alliance partner's own subsidiary

Neither subsidiary is part of the alliance. Qantas' main areas of co-operation in oneworld (as I see it, correct me if I'm wrong) are with BA and AA, and Cathay indeed goes "head to head" with Qantas on many routes, anything from Australia to Europe or Asia.

If JQ can establish an airline at HKG and profit in China, why shouldn't they?



Flown: NZ, NY, SJ, QF, UA, AC, EI, BE, TP, AF
User currently offlineflythere From Hong Kong, joined May 2010, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7497 times:

Quoting TN486 (Reply 3):
Who??? Do you mean Alan Joyce??

Yes Joyce not Walsh hahaha.....  
I was just reading the book A Day in the Airport. Slip of tongue.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9229 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7362 times:

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 6):

Neither subsidiary is part of the alliance. Qantas' main areas of co-operation in oneworld (as I see it, correct me if I'm wrong) are with BA and AA, and Cathay indeed goes "head to head" with Qantas on many routes, anything from Australia to Europe or Asia.

Dragonair is a Oneworld affiliate, just like Jetstar, QantasLink, Airlink (National Jet Systems), Eastern Australia Airlines, Sunstate Airlines, Jetconnect are.

QF does code share on CX flights, e.g. to Rome. Cathay does have some form of agreement in place with Jetstar as well.

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 6):

If JQ can establish an airline at HKG and profit in China, why shouldn't they?

Exactly. Let them come it, they would be more of a headache for Hong Kong Airlines and Hong Kong Express and other Chinese low cost carriers than Dragonair and Cathay.

China is not LCC freindly, massive delays can be imposed by ATC which would throw a low cost schedule into chaos.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinejoelyboy911 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2009, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7248 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
Dragonair is a Oneworld affiliate, just like Jetstar, QantasLink, Airlink (National Jet Systems), Eastern Australia Airlines, Sunstate Airlines, Jetconnect are.

OK, I accept part of that, however:

"In May 2004, Qantas launched a low-cost domestic carrier, Jetstar and a Singapore-based counterpart JetStar Asia. Qantas also holds a 46.3 per cent stake in Air Pacific. None of these carriers are affiliated to oneworld"

From http://www.oneworld.com/ow/member-airlines/qantas

Naturally the world of airline alliances means there are grey areas on where there is competition and where there isn't, and as the alliances grow, this becomes more complex.

Cathay's agreement with JQ, I imagine (without being fully aware of the detail), is possibly somewhat like AA's codeshare on JQ flights within New Zealand - it exists to provide connections where QF-proper does not operate.

As I see it, if the market will allow it, there is no good reason for them not to enter. Dragonair is not so much a low-cost carrier anyway, it has 2-class seating on A320 family and 3-class on some A330, the hypothetical 'Jetstar China' will not be stepping on their toes too much, IMO.



Flown: NZ, NY, SJ, QF, UA, AC, EI, BE, TP, AF
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9229 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6917 times:

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 9):

OK, I accept part of that, however:

Things have changed

"The announcement came from Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan, who also said that his airline would also soon be joining Oneworld Alliance, which will see it become an ally with several full-service global carriers including British Airways, Cathay Pacific, Qantas, Japan Airlines and American Airlines."

http://www.ecarz.co.uk/news/897238672.html
Jetstar Plans On Joining OneWorld Alliance (by 777ER Jan 27 2011 in Civil Aviation)
http://www.jetstar.com/mediacentre/l...4780-857c-a751da0562c3&language=en


"AUSTRALIA'S low fares airline Jetstar has launched two new interline agreements with Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific and Dragonair.

This will allow customers to purchase a Jetstar or Jetstar Pacific (subject to e-ticket implementation) flight as part of a single integrated transaction and travel itinerary. "

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking...s/Money/Story/STIStory_616442.html
http://www.australianbusinessforum.c...s_with_Cathay_Pacific,_Dragonair_/



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineflythere From Hong Kong, joined May 2010, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6874 times:

What pose a question is whether CX group is part of the plan.

User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6830 times:

I'm sure I will get corrected on this point, and I'm ready for that to happen. For some reason I remember reading a thread way back that talked about the relationship between Cathy and Air China and the dream of merging the 2 down the road and/or trying to woo Cathay to Star. Say this was an event down the road, could Qantas be shooting OneWorld in the foot by never developing a good relationship with CX and potentially opening a competing airline at their home base? I don't understand why CX would want to say in an alliance where another member is intentionally trying to steal customers.

Just a thought.

-ATLFlyer323



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1763 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6815 times:

IMHO, relationship with CX is not the most important in this matter, what is more important is do JQ or the QF group have rights to fly between HKG and China or within China, or can they get the rights? The Chinese aviation market is tightly controlled by the government. Of the airlines which currently provide services between HKG and China, HX & UO are part of Chinese owned HU, CA is a major shareholder of CX which in turn owns KA. The rest of the players are mainland Chinese airlines. It would be great to have more competitors between HKG and China, but unfortunately I would say this is bs.

Quoting flythere (Thread starter):
the Apple Daily

This is an unreliable newspaper as far as I know.


User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6162 times:

Could this perhaps be a joint venture with CX? Just as QF appear to being doing with JL to create Jetstar Japan? I don’t think KA really covers the LCC end of the market do they?

I am curious also; will we be seeing QF following the model of KA in the creation of their full-service Asian airline?

I have always struggled to see the benefit of a KA operation to CX, what does it offer them, lower costs? Why not re-brand DragonAir as Cathay Pacific? In saying that I could see enormous benefit to QF to set up a DragonAir style full service airline somewhere in Asia, hopefully feeding into QF services and not replacing them…


User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1763 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5308 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 14):
Why not re-brand DragonAir as Cathay Pacific?
KA has a very strong brand reputation in mainland China, even better than CX, that is probably why CX still retain the KA brand, IMHO.

[Edited 2011-08-04 15:42:58]

User currently offlinehz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1710 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5204 times:
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Dragonair definitely has a different service level than Cathay Pacific, and obviously a large fleet of narrowbodies. It always appeared that they were separate and viewed as a regional affiliate of Cathay (after Cathay bought them). Much like Silk Air is to Singapore Airlines. Dragonair is definitely not low cost though.

HKG could surely use an LCC. Ideally we could get an LCCT too. That aside, an LCC would do well based here. Here is one way to look at it. Say you want to fly KUL or SIN for the day and not pay a fortune. Your first LCC flight is after 11am for both locations, because the LCC doesn't overnight, so you have to wait for Jetstar, or Tiger, to fly to HKG and turnaround, and same for Air Asia for KUL. If the new LCC also did this sort of regional crap it would be most helpful.

There are whimsical ATC delays over Southern China from time to time, which can throw the whole thing out of whack...



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6640 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks ago) and read 5023 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 15):
Quoting smi0006 (Reply 14):
Why not re-brand DragonAir as Cathay Pacific?
KA has a very strong brand reputation in mainland China, even better than CX, that is probably why CX still retain the KA brand, IMHO.

[Edited 2011-08-04 15:42:58]


Actually part of the reason Dragonair still exist is firstly during the buyout CX said they would not alter the brand within 6 years. Secondly, if the Dragonair name were to cease to exist and be merged fully into CX, they would have to reapply for all the Dragonair route rights all over again and the fear is that they would lose a lot of slots to Hong Kong Airlines and Express. That is far from ideal! Also how to integrate the crew seniority lists would be a headache for them as well.

Personally I think something will happen. Dragonair staff these last few years have become unhappy that their company has no 'direction'. There is no 'plan' of what they are doing to develop the brand. No fleet expansion and the staff there feel that it all points to an impending integration into the parent company. Whether this happens or whether it evolves into a new stand alone and perhaps low cost entity remains to be seen.


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 3029 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4459 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 14):
Could this perhaps be a joint venture with CX? Just as QF appear to being doing with JL to create Jetstar Japan? I don’t think KA really covers the LCC end of the market do they?
KA are not a LCC, so a JV might well be a good defensive move by CX-QF/JQ. It would be a significant reversal in stance though by both carriers, given their relationship history. It will all depend on the finer details I guess, and whether they can secure adequare rights into China to make it worthwhile.

Another complexity is an ever constrained HKG airport, and whether there is enough room to accomodate significant growth. They are now making moves to expand, but that will take a few years yet.

[Edited 2011-08-04 22:02:02]

User currently offlinetruemanqld From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 1596 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4288 times:

Interesting. If JQ continues at this rate it will be the biggest airline in Asia within 10 years :P It will be good when, from any reasonably sized destination in East Asia you can fly to SIN, HKG and NRT (assuming JQ Japan base there). I hope this comes to fruition as it will be very good for passengers with relatives in China! Getting to a city, even the size of Tianjin (over 10million people) is a massive pain, it is either ridiculously expensive from BNE or you have to overnight somewhere.

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 3020 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4256 times:

Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 12):
I don't understand why CX would want to say in an alliance where another member is intentionally trying to steal customers.

Could you not turn that around and say that QF is now suddenly going to jump ship because CX are being so aggressive into Australia? A dispute needs two sides, so the blame is hardly with QF all the way considering the 4 daily CX flights into SYD and a 4th planned to MEL.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9229 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 20):
Could you not turn that around and say that QF is now suddenly going to jump ship because CX are being so aggressive into Australia?

The facts do not support that, http://www.bitre.gov.au/info.aspx?ResourceId=218&NodeId=103

CX lifts about 4-5% of the outgoing passengers from Australia, and has done so over the past 6 years. What you have failed to take into account is that the number of people travelling has increased significantly, as a percentage of the overall market, CX is not being aggressive, it is treading water. If you look at the combined numbers for Singapore, Thai, Malaysian, and Cathay over the same period, they have seen a small decline in the overall market share.

On the other hand, if you were to look at the middle east carriers, they started with 5% of the market in 2006, and now have 10%. Jetstar had no market share in 2006, and now enjoys 8%.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 3020 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3990 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
The facts do not support that

Well actually they do. This government source shows the flights that operated between SYD and HKG in Summer 2000/2001.

CX had a daily B74B with 389 seats (2,723 seats a week), plus a daily A343 with 249 seats (1,743 seats a week) for a total of 4,466 seats a week.

QF had a daily B744 with 401 seats (2,807 seats a week), plus a once weekly B763 via BNE (229 seats a week) for a total of 3,036 seats a week.

Now let's look at the upcoming summer of 2011/2012 based on current timetables.

CX will have four daily A333 with 264 seats (7,392 seats a week) so a total of 7,392 seats a week (yes, the new planes have a couple less seats in J).

QF will have a daily B744 with 353 seats (2,471 seats a week), plus a thrice weekly A333 with 297 seats (891 seats a week) plus a single weekly A332 with 237 seats (237 seats a week) so that's a total of 3,599 seats a week.

For CX that's a 2,926 seat increase over 11 years, for QF it's just 563. Percentage wise, that's a 65% or so increase in seats per week since 2000/2001 for CX, while for QF it's just a 18% over the same period. And that is just looking at SYD. I'm happy to do the exact same breakdown for MEL, PER, BNE etc if you like. The results speak for themselves.

[Edited 2011-08-05 07:20:26]

User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 22):

For CX that's a 2,926 seat increase over 11 years, for QF it's just 563. Percentage wise, that's a 65% or so increase in seats per week since 2000/2001 for CX, while for QF it's just a 18% over the same period. And that is just looking at SYD. I'm happy to do the exact same breakdown for MEL, PER, BNE etc if you like. The results speak for themselves.

Sorry, but your analysis doesn't prove anything (other than that CX increased capacity) if the total market on SYD-HKG has grown by 70% over the same period. If demand grows 70% over the same period, so did CX. Moreover, according to your analysis everyone on HKG-SYD is a local pax. However, HKG-SYD flights contain a lot of transfer pax (mostly on CX), which means that you can't compare QFs capacity (mostly used for local pax) to CX capacity (mostly used for transfer pax). Therefore, to get a complete picture one would need to look at more markets than HKG-SYD alone.


User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3821 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 22):
For CX that's a 2,926 seat increase over 11 years, for QF it's just 563. Percentage wise, that's a 65% or so increase in seats per week since 2000/2001 for CX, while for QF it's just a 18% over the same period.

So you are saying that CX adding more seats over time between HKG and Australia than QF, is just a bad as QF opening a potential subsidy in CX's home base? I do not seem to follow your logic. I'm assuming like most that travel between HKG and Australia has grown in the past 10 years, and one cannot fault CX for offering more seats on the pairing, something QF should have done too.

Why do CX and QF have a bad relationship to begin with? What do people here on A.net seem to think it would take to fix that? I just don't see how either benefits from being in the same alliance but not working together...

-ATLFlyer323



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
25 IndianicWorld : ^^ no idea what the exact reason is, just really never see eye to eye. As for being in the same alliance and not working together, there's examples of
26 koruman : I'm amused at the fantasy of Jetstar "integrating" anything at a hub. I recently bought a JQ Business Class ticket HNL-SYD-BNE and they wouldn't even
27 FlyboyOz : Some i agree and some i don't agree. Mostly, I have seen lots of asian pax flying on Cathay Pacific more than Qantas cos they feel more comfortable wi
28 Byrdluvs747 : I fail to see any real value in this venture. OW needs an airline that offers service within mainland china not more HKG routes. I wouldnt call CA's 1
29 kiwiandrew : Apologies for continuing in this OT discussion, but I thought CA increased their stake in CX to 29.9% a couple of years ago , still quite a bit less
30 qf002 : What it shows is that CX has taken the vast majority of the market growth on the SYD-HKG route over the past 11 years. They have expanded massively o
31 cchan : Correct me if I am wrong, my impression is that SYD-HKG is not a prime focus route for QF, they fly to HKG because the flights make money, but they m
32 zeke : CX has increased seats, in line with the increase in the number of people travelling, it has not seen any massive expansion or a large increase in ma
33 qf002 : You are totally missing my point and how it relates to the topic at hand! This is not about CX and QF and HKG at all, it's in response to another poi
34 cchan : These have never been mentioned by both companies. Being in the same alliance does not mean they are the same company, an alliance only create an env
35 jetfuel : Folks can I remind you there is nothing official about this rumour. Better to wait for a credible source of any possible expansion.
36 cchan : Indeed I would be very surprised if JQ would be given the rights to operate between HKG and China by the Chinese and HKSAR governments.
37 IndianicWorld : ^^ Jetfuel, the whole QF review is not confirmed but it hasn't stopped people discussing it over several threads now. It's not likely to stop people g
38 qf002 : If you'd care to actually read what I'm saying and recognise that I'm not actually suggesting either will, but rather refuting the suggestion that AT
39 zeke : CX has not taken anything away from QF at all, even by your own admission QF today carries more pax on the SYD-HKG sector than what they did 10 years
40 qf002 : Compared with the rest of oneworld, CX and QF have very little to do with each other. A single long haul codeshare to FCO doesn't come anywhere close
41 Post contains images zeke : It was a QF business decision to have their hub in SIN, and I agree that QF could make better use of its alliance with CX for destinations like DME,
42 qf002 : QF had a hub of sorts with BA in SIN long before oneworld even existed, from the commencement of the JV in 1995 - that's a decision that was made bef
43 IndianicWorld : SYD-PEK yes, but I can see MEL-BOM being a better proposition for them really. From data I have seen, it is actually a bigger market, but given QFs t
44 Post contains images qf002 : Agreed. It's a market that they might actually have the opportunity to get into and establish before the competition gets round to it... I am hoping
45 vaustralie : Or send them down to MEL for a daily flight? Maybe MEL-INC? I am almost certain OZ do not fly there... or even BNE-INC ? I think the Indian market, m
46 tayser : Seoul is only served 3x weekly (going to 4x weely) by KE into MEL. I dare say a direct service back to Japan will happen before South Korea with QF/JQ
47 qf002 : MEL by itself can't support a daily flight right from the get go, and because of MEL's geographical location, connections can prove to be quite a lon
48 vaustralie : Direct from MEL or direct from Australia? because you can go OOL-NRT/KIX direct from Australia :P So would there be a stopover in SIN? Is it possible
49 qf002 : Nup I reckon the nonstop from MEL at a few times weekly accompanied by reduced frequency on the existing BNE-SIN-BOM rotation. Should be possible to
50 tayser : I beg to differ - the Indian diaspora is larger in Melbourne than compared to Sydney let alone anywhere else in the country and that translates into
51 Post contains images vaustralie : AI, despite the touch and go about starting it, wouldn't be naming MEL as the first Australian port for no reason at all. Have they started that yet?
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