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Southwest Overture Stirs Airbus Jet Order Hopes  
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 22029 times:

Reuters: "Southwest overture stirs Airbus jet order hopes"

http://ca.reuters.com/article/busine...pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

Non-sense it seems. Reuters stirring the home public. Just informal talks.

However Boeing it seems must do some damage repair at Southwest. They totally ignored Southwest, even when they used harsh words to warn Boeing they couldn't wait for ten years on something new.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...g-decision-on-new-737-engines.html

Richard A suggests Boeing listened more to its engineers then to it's customer, pushing innovation, leading up to the 180 they had to make to prevent being sidelined by AA.

.
Southwest Boeing 737-700

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3358 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 21964 times:

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
Non-sense it seems.

Wasn't that the same people was saying when the first AA-Airbus rumors came out?   


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 21889 times:

Why would WN go to Airbus now?

Even if the communication process was not what WN is accustomed to, WN finally got what they wanted from Boeing all along -- a 737RE. They'll eventually order 200 of them to replace all of the Classics and it will be a non-event from an operational and training perspective.

A serious WN-Airbus conversation would have made a lot more sense if Boeing had skipped the RE and gone straight to 797.


User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 21891 times:

Considering the ac on offer, it would be silly of Southwest not to talk to Airbus.
However, tactics have been used before by airlines not intending to buy Airbus, in order to lower Boeing's offers (Ryanair and El Al come to mind).


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 100
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 21773 times:
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Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
However Boeing it seems must do some damage repair at Southwest. They totally ignored Southwest, even when they used harsh words to warn Boeing they couldn't wait for ten years on something new.
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
Why would WN go to Airbus now?

Even if the communication process was not what WN is accustomed to, WN finally got what they wanted from Boeing all along -- a 737RE.

As already noted, it would be silly for WN not to talk with Airbus and Bombardier. In 2014 the leases on the 717 start to expire (note, I'm going from memory...). I could see a split fleet update. The C-series for 717/733 replacement with 738RE or an Airbus (A321NEO?) for the bulk of the fleet.

It is now much less likely WN will go with Airbus, but it is worth their time to talk with WN.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 21608 times:

Quoting breiz (Reply 3):
El Al

El Al was politics http://www.cidi.nl/Nieuwsberichten-1...s-deal-couldjeopardize-US-aid.html

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
I could see a split fleet update.

Agree. the question for SW (if they opt for a light/small/short range type & a bigger longer range type) is how big they want to go. If the 737-800 is large enough for the next 25 yrs, it seems little opportunities for Airbus.

The Reuters article says Airbus is "breaking the ice" at SW. It seems to me there isn't any ice and it's unlikely to appear.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 21562 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
As already noted, it would be silly for WN not to talk with Airbus and Bombardier.

Oh, I completely agree... I just think the talks with Airbus are not likely to yield any result.   Bombardier could be a different story.


User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2230 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 21399 times:

I wouldn't be so sure. Boeing is a company flailing wildly and demonstrating a level of incompetence so fantastic it would have to give pause to any customer, much less one that relies on on it for 100% of its equipment. If I were in SWA's Risk Management group I'd urge a split if only to protect myself against a complete mental breakdown in Seattle. Between the union battles stirring again and the "head up ass" approach to new airframe introductions SWA would almost be criminally irresponsible to its shareholders not to engage in discussions with Airbus.

I'm sorry but I don't think the message AA sent is going to do the trick. Boeing needs someone to kick it straight in the teeth for the lesson to start sinking in...which is simply "get your merde together".


User currently offlineInsideMan From Vatican City, joined Aug 2011, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 21387 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
It is now much less likely WN will go with Airbus, but it is worth their time to talk with WN.

While chances are by far slimmer than with AA, I agree. Not to win the order (will not happen) but to lower the margin Boeing makes on the order.   


User currently offlinerl757pvd From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4655 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 21254 times:

It would be silly for WN to order an airbus that is the same size and does the same mission as the 737. AA is an exception becaquse they need large quantities in a short period of time.

Breaking from Boeing could make sense in a case of a downguage (C Series) or upguage (A321 NEO assuming they wouldnt go 739ER).

Given WN's current and new FL acquired network, I would think there are more C-series opportunities out there.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 20803 times:

I think the deal would be unattractive for Airbus too.

SW has an enormous established & optimized 737 infra structure. Advantages of the A320NEO series over the 737RE would have to more then compensate transforming that infrastructure in say 10 yrs. Hardly possible it seems.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
It is now much less likely WN will go with Airbus, but it is worth their time to talk with WN.

No dount Airbus folks will spend some time too on setting up a very customer focussed proposal. Southwest taking a serious look and putting pressure on Boeing to match it would be worth it. SW occupying hundreds of slots on the Boeing FAL means those slots can not be offered to airlines that consider both NEO and RE's.

Herb Kelleher used to ask his Airbus salescontact for Airbus pens, which he then spread around in the meeting room before the Boeing team entered. A SW A320 model on that Texas desk no doubt helps too, more so after AA.

http://willlukang.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/hk.jpg

[Edited 2011-08-04 07:18:09]

User currently offlinevulindlela744 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 20787 times:

Yes, these are informal talks but remember several years back when AA said Boeing would be their exclusive aircraft supplier and now they have just ordered 270 Airbus aircraft. Nothing would shock me in this industry. It could also be "posturing" on SWA part to get Boeing off their butts. Time will tell. As a flight attendant who works on the 737-700 alot I would welcome an Airbus order. It is much more user friendly in the cabin with wider aisles and generally a
More comfortable cabin.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4195 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 18941 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 5):
The Reuters article says Airbus is "breaking the ice" at SW. It seems to me there isn't any ice and it's unlikely to appear.

The only ice to break for Airbus is in there drinks in Dallas. They have been trying to get an order from WN for a while but WN always seems to get a deal with Boeing.

Quoting wingman (Reply 7):
a complete mental breakdown in Seattle.

The headquarters are in Chicago but your point is still a valid one although a little dramatic.

Quoting wingman (Reply 7):
almost be criminally irresponsible to its shareholders

What law would they be breaking to be held criminally liable? This is just good business on WN's part. They are going to have to get a real bargain to justify bringing on a completly new aircraft and all the associated costs that this would give.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinewilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17900 times:

Quoting vulindlela744 (Reply 11):
As a flight attendant who works on the 737-700 alot I would welcome an Airbus order. It is much more user friendly in the cabin with wider aisles and generally a
More comfortable cabin.

I fly on a 737-800 and A320 back to back, and you are right, the aisles are noticeably wider on the A320.

What SWA wants is next gen aircraft, either the A320NEO or 737RE are stop gap aircraft. I do believe SWA is looking for the next 717 replacement though.


User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3411 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17851 times:

Getting a WN order is one of John Leahy's lifetime dreams.   


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineDFWHeavy From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17717 times:

As much as I love Boeing and wish every plane order would go to them, Boeing better watch out with this. They've already been burned by AA and DL and UA may not be much further behind.


Christopher W Slovacek
User currently offlineadh214 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17671 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 12):
What law would they be breaking to be held criminally liable? This is just good business on WN's part. They are going to have to get a real bargain to justify bringing on a completly new aircraft and all the associated costs that this would give.

Public companies in the United States are established to benefit their shareholders. It would be irresponsible for Southwest to not consider all suppliers when making a jet aircraft purchase. I doubt not considering Airbus would be criminal but it certainly could result in a civil suit by Southwest shareholders. I don't think it will ever come to lawsuits. Southwest has consistently shown they work for the benefit of their shareholders and have done so very successfully.

Andrew


User currently offline7673mech From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 714 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17532 times:
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Quoting wingman (Reply 7):
I wouldn't be so sure. Boeing is a company flailing wildly and demonstrating a level of incompetence so fantastic it would have to give pause to any customer, much less one that relies on on it for 100% of its equipment. If I were in SWA's Risk Management group I'd urge a split if only to protect myself against a complete mental breakdown in Seattle. Between the union battles stirring again and the "head up ass" approach to new airframe introductions SWA would almost be criminally irresponsible to its shareholders not to engage in discussions with Airbus.

I'm sorry but I don't think the message AA sent is going to do the trick. Boeing needs someone to kick it straight in the teeth for the lesson to start sinking in...which is simply "get your merde together".


   Well said!

Quoting rl757pvd (Reply 9):
It would be silly for WN to order an airbus that is the same size and does the same mission as the 737.

Why? Boeing has horrendous customer service of late. (Speaking from a maintenance/engineering perspective).
If Airbus can offer the same caliber aircraft with better support - why not change manufacturers.


User currently offlineSolarFlyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 1040 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 15239 times:

If Boeing loses WN as a customer and they go all C Series or AB, then you might as well write Boeing off or write up a bailout. They will lose the 100-180 seat market IMO and have basically already lost the VLA market. That leaves them with just the 777/787 and they will eventually need a bailout from the government or will just die a slow death to Airbus. They seem to be turning into another General Motors and are in desperate need of innovation. The need to be the Apple of the skies so to speak.

WN is basically among the best of American airline companies and if you can't keep a good customer like them happy you are in deep trouble.


User currently offlinejonathanxxxx From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 673 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 14648 times:

Quoting SolarFlyer22 (Reply 18):
If Boeing loses WN as a customer and they go all C Series or AB, then you might as well write Boeing off or write up a bailout. They will lose the 100-180 seat market IMO and have basically already lost the VLA market. That leaves them with just the 777/787 and they will eventually need a bailout from the government or will just die a slow death to Airbus. They seem to be turning into another General Motors and are in desperate need of innovation. The need to be the Apple of the skies so to speak.

WN is basically among the best of American airline companies and if you can't keep a good customer like them happy you are in deep trouble.

I really wish people would stop being so dramatic. If WN orders Airbus or Boeing both will still stay alive and won't be written off. Think of all the 737 operators: AM, CM, AS, AA (They ordered Airbus but they still ordered Boeing), all those African and Russian operators, and alot more. There is still alot of potential for Boeing. They'll have the entire unbeatable (for now) longhaul planes that are selling like hotcakes. If worst comes to worst the 787 and 777 will keep them going. Boeing has a long future ahead of them and losing one big customer is not a big blow when comparing the rest of the loyal customers they have. Although I agree, Boeing needs to make a move NOW.

[Edited 2011-08-04 13:19:20]

User currently offlinetristarcrazy From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 14003 times:

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
Reuters: "Southwest overture stirs Airbus jet order hopes"

This seems to contradict the rumors of this thread...

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ss-re-engined-737-with-boeing.html



717,722,732,733,737.738,739,742,744.752,763,764,772,L10,L15,DC3,DC6,DC8,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,MD90,CV880,A310,A319,A320.A33
User currently offlinedisplane From United States of America, joined May 2005, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13780 times:

I am almost in shock that WN would consider a split order. Part of the reason they are able to keep costs low is because they have one single type of aircraft. Which means among other things , less training and maintenance.

Though it wouldn't surprise me if Kelleher is just making noise again.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13102 times:

I say they'll order Airbus when hell freezes over, but take a look at my signature, it's not the first time I've been wrong 


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30865 posts, RR: 86
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12605 times:
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Quoting tristarcrazy (Reply 21):
This seems to contradict the rumors of this thread...

WN Chief Executive Officer Gary Kelly's re-iterated their plans to stay with Boeing:

Quote:
Southwest Airlines Co. (LUV), the biggest low-fare air carrier, supports Boeing Co. (BA)’s decision to put a new engine on the 737 and isn’t in talks with other planemakers about orders, Chief Executive Officer Gary Kelly said.

“I’ve said consistently we are working with Boeing,” Kelly said. “I don’t think it’s fair to Airbus or Bombardier to begin serious discussions unless we are serious.”

Kelly also stated that Boeing informed them that they had decided to re-engine the 737 before the AA announcement.


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 12443 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
Kelly also stated that Boeing informed them that they had decided to re-engine the 737 before the AA announcement.

That's great leadership.   . Informing your oldest and most loyal customer on strategic decisions that influence the prolonged fruitful cooperation in future. Warm feelings.
.
.
how many days was that?



25 Flaps : A good point, assuming that Boeing intends to stay in the commercial market. Admittedly, I am playing a bit of devil's advocate here but the current
26 SWA737800 : Me too! I say BRING ON THE BUS!!! Boeing is getting boring! ~SWA737800
27 Post contains images par13del : So after years of denial and always claiming that airlines always buy a/c based on what product best suits their need, as we somehow now saying that
28 par13del : The similar item would be a troubled launch - L1011 and 787 - except the 787 has much greater numbers of orders, and the other a/c in the product lin
29 aerokiwi : So do I - have you noticed how the windows on the Airbus are noticeably smaller but better positioned for taller folk? Pluses and minuses with every
30 Post contains links WarpSpeed : Too many! http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2011...impact-overwhelm-product-strategy/ The new Sky Interior seems nothing but exciting. Couple it with t
31 Post contains images lightsaber : Note: I do expect WN to wait for in service data. so that implies earliest entry for the C-series to WN's fleet would be 2016. But short term, more 7
32 Post contains images scbriml : You do know they're now flying 717s as well as 737s, yes? And that they've said a split fleet is not an issue for them? Yes, but when?
33 Post contains images Stitch : Whether they told them 10 minutes or 10 weeks before they told AA, I expect it doesn't matter, to be honest. WN wanted a re-engined 737 and Boeing is
34 qfa787380 : Yes, who cares, as long as they were told and were satisfied with what they saw.
35 wn700driver : Couldn't say who said that, but I'm almost positive it was said. Boeing has some problems, but I think that's a bit over the top. Boeing is already g
36 FWAERJ : Another time, Herb "accidentally" dropped an Airbus lighter in front of Phil Condit as he was entering the room to negotiate a deal for more 737s. Ph
37 Post contains images oykie : Wave you worked on one with the new Sky-Interior? As a passenger at least the experience was much better than I expected. So spacious! Only problem i
38 Post contains links scbriml : Well, that depends exactly what you read, doesn't it? http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...hwest-airbus-idUSLNE77401020110805 It seems they really
39 Stitch : I expect both to split their orders, as AA did.
40 displane : This was before the Air Tran merger/acquisition. And now are profits are down. Blame the economy. Blame the merger/acquisition. Blame fuel costs. But
41 Post contains links mffoda : It seems they are having a change of heart on the 717... "Chief executive officer Gary Kelly said yesterday that "we don't see a reason to keep the 7
42 Post contains images oykie : I just read that too, and it brings up some questions as to how we can interpret this. According to Southwest they have lease obligations until 2024.
43 bestwestern : El AL will never order Airbus. I stongly disagree on this issue. Boeing strategy revolves around a board level dis-trust over the 787 fiasco and the
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