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Is It Time To Rethink The Authority Of TSA?  
User currently offlinevarigb707 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6833 times:

What do you think? (from MSN.COM)

Yes, they continue to cross the line / No, they are getting a bad rap / Note sure/No opinion

here's a report on TSA's latest incident, with a pregnant flier....
http://overheadbin.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...-confiscated-her-insulin?GT1=43001

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6798 times:

Quoting varigb707 (Thread starter):
What do you think?

I think this article tells us nothing worth discussing!

The TSA said they didn't do it, so the thread is just going to be "Yes they did","they lied", "they're stupid" etc. etc.

Maybe if it was a better article with facts, and views from both side, it might be worthy of a discussion ...but it's not.

See where this thread goes ..and then after 20 posts, I'll say "I told you so"  


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlinespartanmjf From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 514 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6614 times:

Yes - it is time for this group of undertrained government bureaucrats have their authority limited - there is no proof that air travel is safer since TSA replaced local law enforcement and private firms in handling security.....


"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
User currently offlineBlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1926 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6557 times:

The entire Department of Homeland Security is one of the most knee-jerk, liberty infringing organizations that has ever been created. Even George Orwell couldn't have predicated something so profane.


The ONLY policy change that needed to happen after September 11th was making it 100% clear that passengers now were expected to help fight back any hijacking.

That's it.

And maybe if we allowed weapons on the plane, handguns and such, then the pax would have something to fight back with from those who sneak stuff past security already.


--
We are trading freedom for security which over time, history has shown leads to tyranny.
And no, this time isn't 'different'



They're not handing trophies out today
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5618 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6506 times:

The TSA is utterly and completely out of control. The measures they take are (at best) ineptly done and (at worst) violative of basic human dignity.

There is no rational basis for the existence of this power-hungry bureaucracy. It should be defunded, eliminated like the festering stool of the governmental bowels that it is.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineblueflyer From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Jan 2006, 4196 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6459 times:
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The article itself is indeed not conduit to the kind of discussion the OP is looking for, with "he said" "she said" statements and fake outrage.

What would be useful to start this kind of conversation is a break down comparing the number of contacts TSA has with the public against the number of complaints received and, ideally, against the number of lack of adherence to policies as observed by an independent body (say the GAO). We have all read the horror stories, but how frequent are they, and what happened next, is what really matters, I think.

I fly a lot, I've actually read up on TSA policies because I occasionally fly with a handicapped companion. In my opinion, TSA seems to have decent policies and standards in place, but there is a lot of (willful) ignorance among some of its officers, often accompanied with a complete refusal to admit that they might be wrong. I realize that a lot of passengers must try and tell TSA officers how to do their job, but that is no reason to assume they are correct all the time either.

Maybe either the GAO or the DHS Inspector General need to make more anonymous tests of TSA's checkpoints, and focus not just on their detection skills but their knowledge of all policies, and hold specific employees liable for their performance, unlike the no-name results they produce now.

In my opinion, whether it is TSA or pretty much any other level, the government isn't so bad at measuring itself and telling the public how it performs, but it does so while looking at its public servants as a group, and rarely, if ever, tries to find the specific individuals that are failing. That is what needs to change. Test the policies and standards, and test individual compliance to them, and retrain or terminate as necessary.

When I travel with my handicapped companion, we rarely have any issue, but that is not more or less significant than any other individual experience out there. Based on our experience alone, I say retrain some officers, hold them personally accountable, and leave TSA alone to do its job.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineholzmann From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6406 times:

The first presidential candidate who runs on repealing the Patriot Act and putting an end to HLS/TSA will get my vote! But we all know that no one seeking political power will vote to repeal something that gives them so much power. Sadly, instead, we will probably get a unionized TSA where these GRE-toting ingrates begin commanding six-figure salaries, defined benefit plans, some sort of job security that prohibits firing in the face of groping...or else...they strike and we don't travel.

User currently offlineBlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1926 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6307 times:

Holzmann - There is one politician running on exactly the platform you request. Ron Paul. He's already got my vote.


Anyway, the whole system is corrupt and TSA/DHS are just poor performing examples of a government that couldn't fight its way out of a paperbag. 3oz of liquids baby, 3oz and we're safe. 4? We're hosed. But 3 is A OK!


Seriously, you can't make stuff like that up.



They're not handing trophies out today
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5948 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6100 times:

The time to limit or eliminate the TSA was YEARS AGO. But sure, we can do it now too.

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 3):
The entire Department of Homeland Security is one of the most knee-jerk, liberty infringing organizations that has ever been created. Even George Orwell couldn't have predicated something so profane.

Couldn't have said it better myself!


And OF COURSE the TSA says they didn't do it; they also said that the nudie photos of people aren't saved, and thus no one can keep them.... days before some of them turned up on X-rated web sites.

They've got all the credibility of a train car full of carnies.


User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5840 times:

It was time a long time ago when these wannabe cops first hit the scene. Now its just an annoying and tired song and dance every time someone travels.


Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5755 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5762 times:

Quoting bond007 (Reply 1):
The TSA said they didn't do it

Sure, they did, but 3 things make me doubt them:

1) They issued an apology.

2) They've lied plenty of times before about issues with a passenger.

And:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 4):
The TSA is utterly and completely out of control.

There is literally zero oversight of what they do or how they do it. The Supreme Court just took them to task for unilaterally implementing the backscatter machines without so much as a public comment session... one of the most basic rules for any bureaucracy that wants to make new rules.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5657 times:

I'm a long time insulin dependent diabetic who has taken insulin through DIA hundreds of times. It's never been a problem. I simply put my insulin and syringes in a plastic bag and put it through the X-ray. I've never had any problem at all, in any airport. I commend the TSA for the way they handle this matter.

User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5586 times:

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 3):
The entire Department of Homeland Security is one of the most knee-jerk, liberty infringing organizations that has ever been created. Even George Orwell couldn't have predicated something so profane.


The ONLY policy change that needed to happen after September 11th was making it 100% clear that passengers now were expected to help fight back any hijacking.

That's it.

And maybe if we allowed weapons on the plane, handguns and such, then the pax would have something to fight back with from those who sneak stuff past security already.


--
We are trading freedom for security which over time, history has shown leads to tyranny.
And no, this time isn't 'different'

The old west?

It should be obvious that the security is over the top and needs to be more like what goes on in Europe. The US needs to take lessons and not to try to bully other nations into a panic every time something goes wrong in the US.

[Edited 2011-08-07 17:45:15]


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineSevensixtyseven From United States of America, joined May 2011, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5499 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):

And these things are done in the name of "security"...thus, it's apparently exempt. For all what people's opinions are on the TSA, I've never really had anything awful to say about them. Last time I flew, ABQ-PHX, I used the "nude machines", no big deal, they weren't disrespectful, mean, or anything like the horror stories. I personally think all these things are overblown, and some like to vent by choosing the easiest object to vent on.

Although....I did pack a can of shaving cream in an aerosol/compressed air-type container, which I thought was bad...they didn't pull it out, inspect it, or anything, and it was 4 ounces...



Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1939 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5472 times:

I have been inconvenienced by the TSA (and their equivalents in other countries) several times during my travels, so I have as much to gripe about as anyone else in this post. But with that said, I choose not to complain because the "overkill" tactics of the TSA are better than the lax policies of some other authorities. I can put up with some poking and prodding going through security so long as my trip is made that much safer!


Flying refined.
User currently offlinehomsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5431 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 14):
I can put up with some poking and prodding going through security so long as my trip is made that much safer!

But the problem is, it really isn't (that much safer).



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5325 times:

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 7):
Holzmann - There is one politician running on exactly the platform you request. Ron Paul. He's already got my vote.

That reason does not mitigate all the other crank position Ron Paul takes.



ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5248 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 5):
but there is a lot of (willful) ignorance among some of its officers,

I think this is the biggest problem, next to the lack of training they recieve. I had a friend who recently flown, who had some toothpast, lotion, and mouthwash, all of the appropriate size in the required quart size plastic bag, they confiscated these items saying they had to be in seperate bags, which of course is wrong per their own rules: http://www.tsa.gov/311/index.shtm And by the way, this happened at DEN too.....



I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
User currently offlineCMHSRQ From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 999 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5156 times:

I would like to see a cost benefit analysis of the TSA and DHS. How much money is being spent to try and stop a one time terrorist attack that has a very very small chance at happening. People forget that 9-11 can't happen again. Cockpit doors are reinforced and passengers aren't going to sit around and let terrorists control the aircraft. If anyone tries anything on an airplane they get a beat down. People need to stop being so paranoid. You have a better chance of choking on a peanut then biting the dust in an airplane. The TSA and terrorist has a symbiotic relationship. No terrorists, no TSA. So the TSA needs to perpetuate the fear in people to keep spending billions on technology and procedures that don't work while increasing the workforce. I would gladly take my chances on a plane with security as a standard metal detector with baggage x-ray, then what they have now. It's not the land of the free and the home of the brave, but the land of the fondled and the home of the terrified.


The voice of moderation
User currently offlinecubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23309 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5156 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 5):
I fly a lot, I've actually read up on TSA policies because I occasionally fly with a handicapped companion. In my opinion, TSA seems to have decent policies and standards in place, but there is a lot of (willful) ignorance among some of its officers, often accompanied with a complete refusal to admit that they might be wrong.

Agreed. There's plenty wrong at TSA, but it's not the policies. It's the lack of active, thoughtful management/supervision at most airports. I think it's not a coincidence that those airports where you constantly see "suits" at the checkpoint tend to have courteous, competent screeners (JAX is the example that springs to mind).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineodysseus9001 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4475 times:

Lets create an organization and tell them they are responsible for ensuring safe air travel. Maybe its just for show, but no doubt they feel a professional obligation to try. In so doing, they must try to develop effective methods taking into account the history of past and likely future attempts to kill air travelers. However, any method they choose cannot inconvenience our self-important selves in any way. In addition, every single person working in this large organization should be free of any personnel problem, just like our fantasy private sector organization or the military. It should be self-evident to any casual observer that we are not a threat. Therefore, every person in this organization should be utterly devoted to kissing our asses. Therefore, let's criticize and exorciate them and lobby against them at every opportunity until they have been disempowered and rendered incapable of performing their mission. Then, when something happens, criticize the employees we disempowered for being ineffective. Doesn't matter if TSA was public or contracted out--its the same problem.

This is actually a typical American governance model. Its why the great housing bubble and crash happened a few years ago. Its why Katrina happened. Its why the great crash will happen again, Katrina will happen again, and 9/11 will happen again. Us. We are the problem. We never learn from history, so we repeat it. We have no sense of proportion and balance.

I may not agree with all their methods, but I have been through TSA security many, many times, and I just never have run across anyone who wasn't just trying to do their job. I just don't get the level of invective.

If we did have a sense of proportion or balance, we'd learn correct the problems or constructive create a better situation without compromising the mission. That is so true at so many levels in this society. I'm not talking left or right here--its just the way we are on both sides.

John


User currently offlinebond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4119 times:

Quoting bond007 (Reply 1):
See where this thread goes ..and then after 20 posts, I'll say "I told you so"

I told you so   

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlinevegas005 From Switzerland, joined Mar 2005, 330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3638 times:

I just flew out of Zante, Greece with my family. Wife forgot 3 bottles of water in her backpack and a big can of bug spray in her purse. People were going through the metal detector 2 at a time, the bag xray guy for the bags going into the hold was half asleep .. I really felt like there was ZERO security. I would take a modified, polite TSA over what I saw in Greece.

User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3552 times:

Without getting too deep into the debate about the TSA and such like, I'd rather the US just made the country more hospitable. I've been in and out around a dozen times and I've never had an issue with the TSA. In fact, I hardly notice them. Who are the people who deal with you in the way IN? Aren't those border patrol or something? Those are the people I'd like to see changed. Having what are essentially armed guards in black grill you without a smile about your movements and intentions and take your photo and fingerprints isn't the most welcoming experience. I understand the US is sensitive after 9/11, but many other countries have experienced terrorist attacks since and they don't make everyone feel like a criminal. I don't understand why more people don't have a problem with that aspect over and above the TSA. In fact, on my last trip through Newark I had a short conversation with a couple of TSA agents and they seemed perfectly amiable people. If you have enough people doing a job, you're bound to get idiots here and there.

User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3449 times:

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 23):
Who are the people who deal with you in the way IN? Aren't those border patrol or something?

No, that is Customs or Cutoms and Border Protection (CBP), which ever you prefer. I have noticed that some of them dont have a very good sense of humor, but can you blame them?

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 23):
I don't understand why more people don't have a problem with that aspect over and above the TSA. In fact, on my last trip through Newark I had a short conversation with a couple of TSA agents and they seemed perfectly amiable people. If you have enough people doing a job, you're bound to get idiots here and there.

This is true, I have talked with some TSA people, and they are alot of good people there trying to do the right thing. However, there are so many that are undertrained, and put into a position of power, and thats where the problem comes. The customs agents you mentioned are all professionally trained individual, so IMHO, it's to be expected to see them be a little more gruff. But the TSA and the younger kids they seem to hire and give authority to, makes a lot of people step back and say "Come on... Really?" Specially when it comes to the carrying out of policies. The Customs agents are much much more consistent in following the rules, compared to the TSA. I believe that if there was more consistency on the TSA's part, which means more 'proper' training there would be a lot less problems, and in turn less complaining on our part. I'm not saying the problems would go away, even with the properly trained customs agents you still get a few head scratchers in there.

[Edited 2011-08-08 01:46:52]


I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
25 BN747 : Dead on! At LAX and a few other major airports I've been thru they are mostly 'McDonald's workers in Federal positions of authority'.. and that's ask
26 otnysaslhr : I have no personal experience of the TSA. I have noted that many people have called for the removal of The TSA and security. My question is, if you re
27 AwesomeMarce : The issue with the TSA is one far deeper than the experience of the passenger, although that's where all the gripes come from because that's who is ge
28 747438 : I think it's time for the travelling public to accept that there is still a real and present threat to aviation. No one should be exempt from the secu
29 rdh3e : To be fair, Katrina was a natural disaster. The hurricane itself would have happened no matter what the government did. If you are talking specifical
30 Grid : It's not literally a lottery; you have to play, must pay and don't get to pick your numbers. Plus the odds of winning (of getting a decent TSA agent)
31 Grid : Congratulations.
32 homsar : I think he meant the aftermath of Katrina, the poorly planned an executed evacuation of New Orleans, and all of the FEMA problems that occurred; not
33 vegasplanes : I agree completely! IMO the "problem" was solved within two hours of the first hijacking as evidenced by Flight 93. As further evidenced by the "shoe
34 Maverick623 : Slow down, there. Those failed because the wannabe bombers didn't know how to actually set off explosives properly. Richard Reid himself had no chanc
35 CMHSRQ : Did your plane get hijacked? Did you still get on the plane? Were you worried about your safety?
36 cubsrule : I think "force" is the right word, actually. Countries like Poland that use real law enforcement officers or soldiers for security tend to do a reall
37 BN747 : Why? Do you think 'everyone' is out to get you? How many millions of flights have flown the last 10 years in the face of your 'Greece-experience of s
38 vegas005 : Sorry my post was over your head and hit a sore button but my point was Zante had little or NO security. Not an opinion, a fact.
39 LTBEWR : One problem is that some inconsistency as to security methods is something you want. You don't want such consistent patterns that potential terrorists
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