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German ATC Shut-down Tomorrow (08/08/11)  
User currently offlinelhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10970 times:

Quote:
Notification has been received from DFS (Notam A3031/11 has been issued) that industrial action expected to take place Tuesday 9th August 2011 04h00Z to 10h00Z affecting ATC services at all DFS units (ACC and Tower/APP) on German Airspace controlled by DFS.


EDGG / EDWW / EDUU / EDMM


0 rate regulations will be applied between 0400-1000 UTC preventing traffic to enter DFS controlled airspace during this period. Regulations protecting the AS after 1000 UTC will be applied as well to cover the after strike effect. Network Operations are working closely with the DFS in the planning phase in order to manage disruption

Taken from https://www.public.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/PUBPORTAL/gateway/spec/index.html

Should cause some fun tomorrow. Wonder if it will be stopped last minute again like the last one.

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinehailstone From Germany, joined Nov 2000, 410 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10915 times:

chaos, it will cause - anything but fun; even though I would imagine lhr380 not really thinking this being fun !

User currently offlinelhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10893 times:

Quoting hailstone (Reply 1):

Definitely being sarcastic there  
Will be chaos for anyone going over German airspace.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10859 times:

Quoting lhr380 (Thread starter):
Wonder if it will be stopped last minute again like the last one.

Still some chance. Both sides will wait for the court rule this afternoon. If the strike is allowed, I expect arbitration to be called.

In the current crises created by the greedy owners of the so called rating agencies to manipulate stocks an industrial action is the last thing one could need...


User currently offlinelhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10847 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 3):
In the current crises created by the greedy owners of the so called rating agencies to manipulate stocks an industrial action is the last thing one could need...

Exactly!!! It will cause untold chaos. Cancellations, cancelled meetings, lost work etc. Not the way things should be.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9330 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10803 times:

Arbitratiuon won't happen as along as the illegal part of the demands is on the table. You cannot negotiate on aqn illegal item of the agenda.

The union should be aware that, as long as they keep that item on the agenda., they are subject to litigation by LH , Fraport and others.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10778 times:

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 4):
Exactly!!! It will cause untold chaos. Cancellations, cancelled meetings, lost work etc. Not the way things should be.

True. DFS should at least make a serious offer. As it is today, their offer is below inflation rate and less than half of what is usual in other branches this year.
ATC controllers never went into strike in Germany. That they are near to it for the first time is 80% the fault of DFS management as far as I can judge from the news, what I read and what I hear from friends.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9330 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10759 times:

DFS cannot go into arbitration as long as there are items on the agenda which are not discussible. If it was for the money only they would have settled time ago.

OTH, inflation rate cannot be an argument for pay increases., What employees are paid have to be paid by customers and here, DFS is obliged to lower fees by 3% in 2012.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10707 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10724 times:

A small group of very highly paid specialists blackmails it employer on the back of hundreds of thousands of people. Uncounted people will loose time and money so that a elite group can get even more money. Disgusting.
Its time that a strike of the ATC is forbidden by law unless under grave circumstances. Or rule that the Union is liable to pay the damages caused to others.


User currently offlinelhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10589 times:

What with the the joys of Night Shifts, I have my dates mixed. It is of course 09/08/11 when the strike may occur according to the news, not today.

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 10471 times:

Quoting na (Reply 8):
A small group of very highly paid specialists blackmails it employer on the back of hundreds of thousands of people. Uncounted people will loose time and money so that a elite group can get even more money. Disgusting.

It's strange how when a business chases off all the competition and has monopoly pricing power many here are unfazed, but when workers find themselves in a similar position, they are labeled as being blackmailers. It's just a side effect of our free market system. We could re-instate price controls on everything again, but we've found that it just doesn't work. So we put up with the occasional blip where workers can indeed shut down an enterprise because of their irreplaceable skill, just like we put up with outrageous walk-up fares when we're forced to fly at the last minute. Many senior executives claim that their skill entitles them to 100x - 1000x the salary of the average worker and we put up with that too.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2435 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 10451 times:

Quoting na (Reply 8):
A small group of very highly paid specialists blackmails it employer on the back of hundreds of thousands of people

So according to you, the employer's offer of "less than inflation" is acceptable? Nice to hear there are people in the world who like to have less purchasing power every year.

Corporations will love you, that's for sure...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
DFS cannot go into arbitration as long as there are items on the agenda which are not discussible. If it was for the money only they would have settled time ago.

The other items on the agenda are secondary if the agency is not even offering inflation. If the company had the flying public's interests at heart, then they would offer a good monetary incentive to the controllers in order to avoid a strike.

Money talks. Pure and simple.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2011-08-08 07:11:00]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10707 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 10395 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 11):
So according to you, the employer's offer of "less than inflation" is acceptable? Nice to hear there are people in the world who like to have less purchasing power every year.

Thats not what I said, I said that the fact that a high-payed elite group fights its cause on the backs of the paying public is unacceptable.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
It's strange how when a business chases off all the competition and has monopoly pricing power many here are unfazed, but when workers find themselves in a similar position, they are labeled as being blackmailers.

I dont, btw I take part in a lawsuit against software giant Adobe because of monopoly practises.


User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 10379 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 11):
So according to you, the employer's offer of "less than inflation" is acceptable?

It also depends IMHO on the increases they agreed on in the last negotiation rounds. If you would have had increases exceeding the inflation rate for some rounds, one round of "less than inflation" should be acceptable. If the last ones were inflation only or less, then it wouldn't.



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9330 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 10328 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 11):
The other items on the agenda are secondary if the agency is not even offering inflation. If the company had the flying public's interests at heart, then they would offer a good monetary incentive to the controllers in order to avoid a strike.

As said befoe, if it was for the money only, strike would not be on the agenda. besides. we talk about people here making 6 digit salaries like 120K € p.a. , so that's not exactly near pverty level.

The point is, DFS cannot go into abritration as long as there are illegal points on the agenda.



Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
but when workers find themselves in a similar position, they are labeled as being blackmailers. It's just a side effect of our free market system. We could re-instate price controls on everything again, bu

delete the term "workers" and replace with "highly paid specialists". The free market is legally replaced by a de factor monopoly which has some restrictions in their price finding. Lufthansa and other airlines are lobbying for some time to pay reduced fees and AFAIK DFS will reduce by 3% next year.

We never had price control for anything here. Price control would not apply here anyhow as the relation from DFS to its customers is B2B., not B2C.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2435 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 10326 times:

Quoting na (Reply 12):
, I said that the fact that a high-payed elite group fights its cause on the backs of the paying public is unacceptable.

When bus drivers go on strike, people who take the bus will complain. When pilots or f/a's go on strike, poeple who use that airline will complain. When ATC go on strike, the flying public will complain. Nothing new here. It's the way of life.

It's also no reason not to go on strike.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2435 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 10317 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
besides. we talk about people here making 6 digit salaries like 120K € p.a. , so that's not exactly near pverty level.

They are still entitled to a proper wage increase, just like everyone else. The fact that they make 6 digit salary doesn't change that. They are paid that money because only a small percentage of people around the world have what it takes to do the job. The salary level is not an issue. The salary increase is.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2011-08-08 07:33:35]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9330 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10271 times:

I say it again, if it was for the money, we would not discuss here. They would have settled that a long time ago. Somewhere in the middle of the offering and the demaqnd, as it is usually done here.

My personal opinion to your point of view is, no, the rate of inflation has nothing to do with pay, the salary can only as high as customers are prepared to pay for the services.

Anothjer item is supply and demand and here, the controllers have the better deck of cards. DFS has made the mistake of not training enough to fill demand. They should always train 10 to 20$% more than they need, that would solve the problem. The other problem is, they hardly find enough candidates among the yo-yos our school system lets lose on the public each year. Only about 10% of applicants qualify for training.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10707 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10222 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 15):
When bus drivers go on strike, people who take the bus will complain.

There is a difference. If there is a bus strike, there are alternatives, and the delay will be counted in minutes, or one or two hours. No real drama. If ATC is on strike, it can easily cost a day, and thousands of bucks for indivisual people.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 16):
The salary level is not an issue. The salary increase is.

But with a salary like that its easy to keep your feet still for some time without bringing out the big hammer. Its disproportionate what the ATCs wants to do.


User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2435 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10217 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
DFS has made the mistake of not training enough to fill demand. They should always train 10 to 20$% more than they need, that would solve the problem. The other problem is, they hardly find enough candidates among the yo-yos our school system lets lose on the public each year. Only about 10% of applicants qualify for training.

Every major ATC agency, which deals with several million aircraft movements/year, has been or is short staffed. That's just how the business works. Due to the stressful nature of the job, along with the less than perfect candidates that often come through the doors for training, you often get assigned something that haunts every company......OVERTIME.

Companies try to staff for 115, 120% all the time, but it's easier said than done. Trainees come and go, meanwhile your OJI staff gets burned out with all the O/T and training they are doing. Not to mention that everyone with 35 years on the job (that's if they even make it to 35) is ready to retire, much to the company's chagrin, compounding the problem even further. Its not just at DFS, every major ATS provider has this problem, barring maybe Skyguide (i hear there's no O/T there) and LVNL.

Quoting na (Reply 18):
But with a salary like that its easy to keep your feet still for some time without bringing out the big hammer. Its disproportionate what the ATCs wants to do.

When you earn a 6-digit salary, you spend a 6-digit salary. You need to keep your purchasing power intact, or better yet dare i say increase it. Pure and simple.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2011-08-08 08:06:20]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9330 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10126 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 19):
When you earn a 6-digit salary, you spend a 6-digit salary. You need to keep your purchasing power intact, or better yet dare i say increase it. Pure and simple.

as long as you have a someone paying for that, fine. I live in the real world and my customers tell me that they just received a better offer from company XYZ and I can reduce my offer or leave it. You can imagine that my sympathy is rather limited I acknowledge the bargaining power they have and I unfortunately have to pay it through the ticket price.

But again, money is not the issue in this case.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3997 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10126 times:

It ain't over till the fat lady sings - just wait for the outcome of the ongoing court proceedings currently taking place at the employment tribunal in Frankfurt...

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12457 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10044 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
The free market is legally replaced by a de factor monopoly which has some restrictions in their price finding. Lufthansa and other airlines are lobbying for some time to pay reduced fees and AFAIK DFS will reduce by 3% next year.

Maybe LH and others should next lobby the oil companies since that's where a large chunk of their expenses come from (far larger than ATC fees). Oh, but why would an oil company volunteer to lower their prices? I don't know, but I also don't know why DFS has volunteered to lower its prices. I hope DFS has a plan to fund these 3% cuts without reducing the quality of service and reducing ATCO pay.

Quoting na (Reply 18):
But with a salary like that its easy to keep your feet still for some time without bringing out the big hammer. Its disproportionate what the ATCs wants to do.

It seems the Union is doing everything by the books and with restraint. We're talking about a 6 hour shut down here.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10030 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
DFS has made the mistake of not training enough to fill demand. They should always train 10 to 20$% more than they need, that would solve the problem. The other problem is, they hardly find enough candidates among the yo-yos our school system lets lose on the public each year. Only about 10% of applicants qualify for training.

Your second statement contradicts the first.   It's not like DFS has been turning people away. They've been training everyone willing and able. To increase the number, they either need to lower the standards (which they are not willing to), or increase salaries yet again, which they're probably going to do. So you're right, the coming strike is not about the money.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 21):
just wait for the outcome of the ongoing court proceedings currently taking place at the employment tribunal in Frankfurt...

This way of going about industrial action is simply ridiculous. Set a date three weeks in advance, clear the courts and then do it. Leaving people in the dark until less than 12 hours before the strike is immature behaviour.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineCaptainCrackers From New Zealand, joined May 2010, 127 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9985 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
But again, money is not the issue in this case.

Of course money is the issue. Just look at the demands:

6.5% pay increase => money
Reduction of maximum overtime hours worked, creating further lack of staff; employer has to pay more to hire more staff from overseas => money
Only controllers with 6 years of experience to be promoted to position of schedule planner, therefore DFS cannot hire cheaper workers with less experience => money

And at 17:50 the court has allowed the strike. Viva la revolucion!


25 PanHAM : Just for your information, oil is a commodity which is traded and the barrel crude price is fixed daily. LH is rather successfully hedging against th
26 CaptainCrackers : Well that was a shot in the foot, wasn't it, Lufthansa? Lufthansa claims its customers are proactively cancelling flights, presumably so they can mak
27 PanHAM : Well, this has nothing to do with the strike. Lufthansa will most likely sue the union for damages because they believe that the strike is illegal. T
28 CaptainCrackers : Airline lobbying is not the direct cause of the strike, no. But it is characteristic of the problems DFS faces; a shortage of workers and budget press
29 vfw614 : It is not immature, it is effective. The whole idea of a strike is to put as much pressure on the employer as possible. If you announce a strike week
30 PanHAM : Mr. Ramsauer is not running the DFS and not the LBA either. Obviously you still have not udnerstood that this is not for the money alone. I don''t ca
31 Post contains images Revelation : Must we use such flaming rhetoric? The fact is that pax will check their flight status before they leave home and will find they have to make alterna
32 vegas005 : disappointing from a group making damn good money.[Edited 2011-08-08 10:16:17]
33 GolfBravoRomeo : Most flights from North America are scheduled to arrive during the strike time frame. How will this affect operations? I'd guess LH will just delay fl
34 PanHAM : What is flaming about my rethoric? It's a fact and we are used to call things by the name here. It is not for a number of hours either, this will aff
35 LTU330 : Seven LH flights are already planned to stop at MAN if the strike goes ahead. I have no idea about the rest. One of the ones planned for MAN is LH401
36 robffm2 : It is flaming. Using a word describing a major crime for somebody executing their legal right is flaming and should not be tolerated here.
37 PanHAM : It's common use of language in German when a small group ruins the day of hundreds of thousands and simply translated into English. You know that. Th
38 adambrau : It looks like many UA flights are being held back a few hours so they arrive around 1200 noon. UA 944 which arrives at 545am looks like it is going ah
39 Revelation : Right, which makes it flaming rhetoric, because there's a big difference between someone who is being inconvenienced versus someone who is being held
40 vfw614 : Just for the record, the Employment Tribunal Frankfurt has ruled in favour of the union and given the green light for the strike. The employer DFS imm
41 sbworcs : I would respectfully disagree. Use of the word "hostage" in this situation is perfectly normal in everyday English and does not devalue the experienc
42 GCT64 : Welcome to the UK! In 2011, only 25% of UK workers (public and private sector) have had pay increases and most increases traditionally come in the fi
43 UALWN : There's no single overall state of the Eurozone economy. Spain, for instance, is doing really bad, but Germany is doing much better, and significantl
44 PanHAM : Thanks. As I have said before it is perfectly normal in German and I would not have used the translation if I had the feeling that it would be uncomm
45 CaptainCrackers : The union wants to have more say in the way DFS is run, over and above what German labour law's principle of "codetermination" explicitly grants them
46 sbworcs : Many thanks for both for the explanations.
47 vfw614 : - Breaking news- strike has been called off. Dispute has been submitted to arbitration by the employer which forces the union to call off the strike.
48 FRAIAD : That's really good news since I'm booked on a flight for this weekend and would hate to have trouble because of this.
49 lhr380 : Good!!!! Had enough problems with the ATC problems at work today lol.
50 something : Well yes, and then again no. The air traffic control is actually considered a 'special police force', or 'Sonderpolizeiliche Aufgabe' in German. But
51 haddock0815 : @ something: totally agree, especially this part: and i am sure that planning a strike in the main travel season of the year and taking hundreds of th
52 Post contains images thenoflyzone : Agreed, but you guys drive on the left side of the road. It's a totally different thing...... Thenoflyzone[Edited 2011-08-08 17:56:19]
53 thenoflyzone : That's assuming pilots touch the yoke or the sidestick in the first place which they hardly do these days.. Again, what do you think commercial pilot
54 BA777 : I suggest you spend a few days in the life of a commercial pilot, there is far more to it than that. Yes we monitor the screens but we are ready if t
55 something : One reason air traffic controllers make that much money is the suppy-demand argument. According to the DFS, there are not enough ''suitable'' air tra
56 Rara : I'm not saying it should be convenient, quite the opposite. But what they're doing right now, with extremely short-notice announcements, calling stri
57 InsideMan : Just because it is used in English, doesn't mean it's not flaming. Usually you would hear this is a political debate, which is always flaming..... se
58 PanHAM : Well, we heard that on prime channel TV news last night from an airline spokesman and he did not copy me. It is absolutely common use language, like
59 Post contains images Honza : I doubt they retire, I think they shift to non-controlling position until they reach retirement age.. ATCOs don't? You seem not to like them Cheers,
60 Post contains images Revelation : From an airline spokesman indeed. Thanks for proving my point. Somehow we don't hear about hostages being taken when the airline strands people on a
61 InsideMan : WOW! 2nd that!
62 PanHAM : we hear exactly the same words when pilots go on strike, or train drivers. Or anyone else who can affect thousands of people who are not actually inv
63 Revelation : In the case of being stuck on an aircraft, you literally are being held hostage. In the case of a pre-announced strike, you are perhaps rhetorically
64 PanHAM : well, I am trying to tell you that this is common use of language, no flaming. If you tke that as flaming I tell you what the French say to this - ho
65 thenoflyzone : tell that to the flight crew of AF447. Like it or not, airline management doesn't want pilots touching the controls anymore. How does the saying go..
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