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ANA Boeing 787 Configurations  
User currently offlinesantos From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 741 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 23717 times:

'ANA has unveiled its planned Boeing 787 Configuration, which includes the following:

Domestic 264 seats: F12Y252 (F – Premium Class)
Short-Haul International 222 seats: C42Y180
Long-Haul International 158 seats: C46Y112'

http://airlineroute.net/2011/08/08/nh-787confi/

Why no F class on international flights?

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineORDFan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 23655 times:

That can't be correct for long-haul international -- only 158 seats?? Maybe 156 Y class, but not total??

[Edited 2011-08-08 11:08:12]

User currently offlinesantos From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 741 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 23616 times:

Quoting ORDFan (Reply 1):
That can't be correct for long-haul international



It sounds about right, ANA only seats 233 pax on an international configured B777-300ER.


User currently offlineprofcalvin From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 23617 times:

how can they have just 4 less C-class seats yet 68 more y seats on the short haul international vs long haul? Are they going to put 3-3-3 in Y or are the 2 international configurations going to have different C seats that take up that much more space...

I am guessing because of the size of the plane and the routes it will be flying, F will not have enough demand to warrant a separate cabin with a few seats. The big prem routs like NRT-LHR/JFK/LAX will still get 77W service which have 8 first class suites.


User currently offlineCentre From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 23451 times:

Quoting santos (Thread starter):
Long-Haul International 158 seats: C46Y112'
Quoting santos (Thread starter):
That can't be correct for long-haul international -- only 158 seats?? Maybe 156 Y class, but not total??

Deal with it, the 787 is doing what it was built for, to replace the 767.... So don't fall for the whole point to point travelling...etc.
If it's not limited by range, it will be limited by capacity and the profit margin it will generate, AKA CASM.



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 23438 times:

Until I see a real source, i won't believe it. 158 seats is way too low.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinekaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2407 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 23354 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 5):
Until I see a real source, i won't believe it. 158 seats is way too low.

215 seats is "way too low" for a 777-300ER, yet ANA pulls it off.

http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/us/e/asw_co...mon/inflight/seatmap/b777_300er_1/

[Edited 2011-08-08 11:58:09]

User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 23337 times:

Looking at the Boeing sample configs, 46C in the full flat configuration at 1-2-1 would take up most of the space in front of Door3, so I guess that could only leave 112 seats at 8Y. That's just a lot of C seats in a 763 sized aircraft. But for a 764 sized aircraft, a 764 could hold more seats than this in this configuration.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12593 posts, RR: 34
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 23182 times:

Quoting santos (Thread starter):
Short-Haul International 222 seats: C42Y180
Long-Haul International 158 seats: C46Y112'

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth; if that's the config they wish to offer on long haul routes, whoopee ... a far cry from the likes of KLM and AF and their 10 abreast on 77Ws! Good for NH. It would certainly make me go out of my way to choose NH for long haul travel.


User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3503 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 23029 times:

Quoting profcalvin (Reply 3):
how can they have just 4 less C-class seats yet 68 more y seats on the short haul international vs long haul? Are they going to put 3-3-3 in Y or are the 2 international configurations going to have different C seats that take up that much more space...

Easy, different business seats and configuration on long haul vs short haul

2-2-2 vs 1-2-1/1-1-1 in staggered seating


User currently offlinejustloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1065 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 22570 times:

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 9):
Quoting profcalvin (Reply 3):
how can they have just 4 less C-class seats yet 68 more y seats on the short haul international vs long haul? Are they going to put 3-3-3 in Y or are the 2 international configurations going to have different C seats that take up that much more space...

Easy, different business seats and configuration on long haul vs short haul

2-2-2 vs 1-2-1/1-1-1 in staggered seating

Plus 8 abreast vs 9 abreast in Y?


User currently offlineTinosky From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 22248 times:

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 6):
215 seats is "way too low" for a 777-300ER, yet ANA pulls it off.

Although they charge higher fares than other carriers, I'd rather be on a 12 hour (NH) flight with good service and comfortable seating. That's the main reason why I fly them to Japan, another reason why they can get away with less seats while making a profit.  

Tinosky~


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 22023 times:

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 6):
215 seats is "way too low" for a 777-300ER, yet ANA pulls it off.

Yes, but it has an F section and 68 C seats.

Without the F section (788 has no F), that's another 8 seats if it's all C, or 84C seats and 139 Y. 84C would be ridiculous, so keep it at 68C and you get 270 seats (202Y).

I guess is you then downscale that setup to the 788 (365 nominal seats/225 nominal seats), you get 166 seats on the 788. So even then, the Y section is 1 row bigger in that breakdown.

Is NH really that premium of an airline that they can support this? Japanese economy is said to be on the accent (finally) following the tsunami (or possible because of it), so who knows.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinelaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 581 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 21623 times:

ANA 777-300ER, only 37 rows of seats.
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/ANA/ANA_Boeing_777-300.php

ANA 767-300ER vers. 1 45 rows, with 2-3-2 in economy.

Quoting Centre (Reply 4):
Deal with it, the 787 is doing what it was built for, to replace the 767

Absolutely correct. The 787 was designed to replace the 767, so the purpose of the e/q is to fly long routes, but will smaller numbers. Thus, it is doing what it is supposed to do...767 amount of pax, but long flights. It is not supposed to be compared to the 777-200ER/LR and 777-300ER.

Thank you for all comments/answers,

laxboeingman



The real American classics: LAX and Boeing.
User currently offlinecslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 843 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 20936 times:

222 seats sounds closer to the proposed ex-NW configuration and I even thought that it was generous.

with NH flying a 788 with 158 they must charge full fares to most of their passengers otherwise I'd think that they'd go belly up.



--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 20879 times:

Quoting cslusarc (Reply 14):
with NH flying a 788 with 158 they must charge full fares to most of their passengers otherwise I'd think that they'd go belly up.

Interesting concept: simply don't offer the lowest fare buckets. Those sell out anyway, and then most people have to pay the higher fare buckets. Why even offer them? I've never understood the logic of selling loss leading fares like that. Sure, people will claim it leads to "brand recognition" but all it really does is allow cheapskates to buy cheap tickets. They will claim "XYZ never has the lowest fare, ABC does" but as soon as ABC doesn't have the lowest fare, they will not stay loyal to ABC, but move on to another carrier.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31387 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 20708 times:
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Business Class at 2+2+2 is going to be 8 rows, which will take up 13 meters. Economy would take 14 rows at 34", which would be another 12m.

So you're looking at 25m, which leaves 12m of available room.

So we must be missing something...


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 20465 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
So we must be missing something...

This is long-haul, and ANA is replacing their seating with a much less space efficient C class (though now fully flat, not sloped flat). They are also pulling out the Y+ experiment, it seems.

C is not 2+2+2. It's a staggered layout of 1-2-1,1-1-1 most likely (it's 1-2-1, 1-2-1 on the 777). My guess is that pitch between two rows is 80", meaning it's 7 seats per 2m+? Maybe a bit less? So 46 takes up 15m or more. Y would be nother 12m. So that 27m. 10m remaining for lavs, galleys, doors, etc. Is that too much?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinebrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1719 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 19857 times:

I'm looking at the ANA "First to Fly" mini-site for the 787 ... boy, does ANA ever need to employ a competant editor!

http://www.ana.co.jp/promotion/b787/en/comfort/#02



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 19720 times:

Quoting brenintw (Reply 18):
I'm looking at the ANA "First to Fly" mini-site for the 787 ... boy, does ANA ever need to employ a competant editor!

Careful, when I asked why Japanese airlines refuse to hire native English editors to check their website copy, the thread was deleted as "low quality." My take is it makes them look unprofessional. Watching NHK World is a similar experience. I'd find it insulting that they don't seem to care enough to get their English language sections right, but I find it funny that they think "good enough" is good enough. I know very little Japanese, much more German, a lot of French, and yet I would never try to create a website meant for those markets without hiring a native speaker to write/proof the copy.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2977 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 18426 times:

Kind of surprising that they didn't opt for a 9-abreast domestic configuration.
Some of the initial 788s are going to replace the older domestic 763s, which are configured for 270-seats, so it does make it a good one-for-one replacement by both airframe & seat numbers. It is also possible that a 9-abreast 788 will take seating capacity to over 300 pax and that could necessitate additional flight attendants, which NH decided against.

Maybe it will be rolled out later just like they did with the 777.
For the initial few years 777s were configured in a 3-3-3 9-abreast economy configuration but to squeeze more passengers and to replace the 747SRs the 773s & 772s were retrofitted to 10-abreast.
I certainly am glad that NH continues to fly the 777s in a 9-abreast economy and the upcoming 787 in 8-abreast on international flights.

With only 158 seats and plenty of cargo space, let the speculation begin on new long-haul destinations from Tokyo Narita.
Americas: Houston, Newark, Seattle
Europe: Brussels, Stockholm, Dusseldorf, Berlin

Many common travelers and even people on this site often complain about space in economy and what does NH offer, a 787 in 8-abreast (not sure about pitch) and low-density layout. Then people on this site point out how few seats NH has on its planes. In most circumstances, an airlines cannot have both dirt cheap ticket prices and generous space in economy. NH has chosen to get rid of the ultra-cheap economy fares in favor of providing better quaility service and a little more room at slightly more cost to ticket prices. So choose which ever airline that fits one's budget and expectation of service.
Sorry had to vent a little.


User currently offlineCentre From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 18347 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
So we must be missing something...

Nothing much is missed, considering:

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 6):
215 seats is "way too low" for a 777-300ER, yet ANA pulls it off.

Again, many of those who ordered the 787 are existing 767 operators, and this is the typical airplane for their fleet replacement.
ANA, JAL, AC, BA, ET, UA, QF, LAN, KQ spring to mind.
With that Many on order by AC, I see a lot of 787 runs to be on domestic routes for example.

Strategically, I think it will be a fatal mistake for a blue chip airline to plan its long haul fleet around a 787 sized airplane, let alone the P2P travelling or the "avoid the major hubs propaganda".
If you are a blue chip network carrier, who is involved in an Alliance, and has code share agreements, along with antitrust immunity with other carriers, why would you want to avoid the hubs, if your model is set around one?



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlinebioyuki From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 17272 times:

Quoting Tinosky (Reply 11):
Although they charge higher fares than other carriers, I'd rather be on a 12 hour (NH) flight with good service and comfortable seating. That's the main reason why I fly them to Japan, another reason why they can get away with less seats while making a profit.  

Absolutely, I go out of my way to fly ANA. In my experience, their prices are no higher then United or Delta for transpac routes, and it's a hell of a better way to get there. It hilarious to read this thread and see people in disbelief that some airlines outside of the US are actually well run and can deliver a good experience for passengers.



Next flight: UA 726/84 SFO-EWR-TLV
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9229 posts, RR: 76
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 15726 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 5):
Until I see a real source, i won't believe it. 158 seats is way too low.

I have been asking for this on a few threads now, I find it strange that they have had press tours inside the cabin, yet no one has come out with a seat map.

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 22):
It hilarious to read this thread and see people in disbelief that some airlines outside of the US are actually well run and can deliver a good experience for passengers.

Some people find hard to believe you could find one in the US.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2167 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 15108 times:

Quoting brenintw (Reply 18):
I'm looking at the ANA "First to Fly" mini-site for the 787 ... boy, does ANA ever need to employ a competant editor!

http://www.ana.co.jp/promotion/b787/...t/#02

The section about the windows is brutally honest though.   Pop, goes the window hype. 8 cm higher, that's all there's to it. That's less than an average business card is long.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
25 justloveplanes : The first international P2P innovator will come along and eat your lunch. The way SWA did to the US legacies. It will happen internationally too. PHP
26 Someone83 : And still the giant hubs remain..........
27 justloveplanes : Of course they still remain, the next gen of fragmentation aircraft (787, 350) aren't even in service yet. This is a 10 year thing at least. SWA didn
28 rheinwaldner : Which corner? I thought much more aircraft are flying under a legacy brand in the US than under SWA titles.
29 Aither : 90% of the long haul demand is Hub-Hub or Hub-Point New aircraft will not modify where people live and want to go.[Edited 2011-08-09 05:18:30]
30 jfk777 : With 42 J on teh short version and 46 on teh long what is the seat pitch on the short haul version ? The short version has only 4 less J seats but 68
31 spacecadet : It will be 33", but with slide-forward seats so that legroom is only as generous as you'd expect from 33" when sitting bolt upright. They still offer
32 vfw614 : So that's just 14 rows of Y-class in the int'l version - wow. Interesting layout.
33 1stfl94 : ANA has always had very premium heavy long haul layouts, some of their 747-400s only had 280 seats and that was with the old slanted business seats (e
34 UALWN : And yet SWA seems to be slowly moving to a PHP model, at least partially, with BWI, LAS, MDW, DEN, etc. as hubs.
35 kaitak744 : According to their newer seat layouts, ANA is phasing out premium economy.
36 Post contains images Centre : Again, I wouldn't look at the 787 as no more than a 767 replacement. The real innovation in that market segment was started by the A300. Whatever fol
37 cslusarc : That is too bad because I think that a Premium Economy sections has the potential to generate the most revenue per square foot of floorspace.
38 spacecadet : Well, they must have a good reason for doing it; no company does something like that on a whim. ANA used their Y+/PE sections for upgrades, if I reca
39 BOACCunard : Maybe NH considered its new economy product to be too high-quality to warrant a premium economy product as well.
40 seabosdca : I'm kind of surprised they don't market the whole cabin as Y+. I don't think 8Y is going to be "normal" on the 787 any more than 9Y was on the 747.
41 tdscanuck : It's not hype...the windows are amazing. Physically, they're 8cm bigger (yes, that's a lot for an aircraft window). Much more importantly, they don't
42 lightsaber : I'm impressed with what ANA proposes. I'm still waiting to see the seat maps, but there does seem to be a market in Japan for the ultra low density se
43 Aaron747 : Are you serious? You should try flying them sometime. Not only have they taken up a good chunk of JAL's former corporate clients, increasingly foreig
44 Post contains links czbbflier : I came across this video of the new ANA 787 while following up on another thread in non-av. Thought I'd share this here. (Cross posted on Boeing 787 E
45 spacecadet : Because 31-34" of seat pitch is not what anyone expects from Y+. Those seats in that video are exactly the same as their "Inspiration of Japan" confi
46 Post contains links mdword1959 : Flightblogger has posted an interesting piece about "the quirks and questions of All Nippon's first 787" which includes a cabin diagram and videos: ht
47 tdscanuck : You wouldn't. But I certainly would like to watch my iPod *video* on a screen larger than about 2" x 2". The seat clusters are all doubles...the midd
48 Post contains images jetBlue : The lavatory on ANA's 787 is going to have a bidet! Is that an airline first? I love it jetBlue
49 Post contains links and images zeke : It is good to finally to see a real 787 seat map, from that link larger version http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...1/08/FIN_ANASEATING_Xa-136483.
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