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San Diego Bi-national Airport With Tijuana  
User currently offlineghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5197 posts, RR: 51
Posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10147 times:

Hello,

I've read a note recently saying that TIJ will finish it's remodelation program this December and by August, on the US side, works will finally start for this new bi-national airport.

I clearly don't see any space there:


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Photo © Ricardo Morales - flyAPM



Is finally the project getting green lights?

g77


Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10126 times:

No its not really a bi-national airport.

What they are planning is a bridge or essence a border crossing that would allow people to access the airport from the US side.

See this thread for details and design rendering.
San Diego-Tijuana Airport Ped Bridge Proposed (by LAXintl Aug 1 2010 in Civil Aviation)



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 10002 times:

Given the crime/drugs issue is Northern Mexico, is this a good idea.

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5229 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9930 times:

Here's a link to one of the latest articles on the subject from the SD U/T:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2...link-us-fliers-to-mexican-airport/

(Sorry LAX' if this is already linked in the thread you listed.)

Personally, I'm still not holding my breath to see this project ever started, let alone completed. (Especially now that Y4 is flying out of Lindbergh to GDL and MEX!)

bb


User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9893 times:

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 2):
Given the crime/drugs issue is Northern Mexico, is this a good idea.

Life and business go on regardless... This is just a new border crossing, given the fact that we already have 2 much larger ones that are operating normally every day, the point seems moot.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
Personally, I'm still not holding my breath to see this project ever started, let alone completed. (Especially now that Y4 is flying out of Lindbergh to GDL and MEX!)

While I would have understood the difficulties in building a true binational airport, this is basically just a rather simple new border crossing that takes advantage of TIJ's location right on the border.

I've heard good things about the new Y4 flights to San Diego, however, you still have to consider that cross-border flights incur in additional taxes. For Aug 31st for example.. lowest TIJ-MEX o/w fare on Y4 us 150usd while the lowest SAN-MEX is 226usd. While there is certainly a market for these new SAN flights, other people, such as larger groups or budget travelers may prefer just crossing the border and flying from TIJ.

There's also a much larger variety of Mexican destinations that are unlikely ever to operate from SAN (Y4 is already reducing frequency on SAN-GDL) that Y4 is operating from TIJ, like Acapulco, Oaxaca, Zacatecas, Mazatlan, Monterrey, Morelia, Puebla, etc etc, you can't even get this variety at LAX !


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5229 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9870 times:

Quoting SR117 (Reply 4):
I've heard good things about the new Y4 flights to San Diego, however, you still have to consider that cross-border flights incur in additional taxes. For Aug 31st for example.. lowest TIJ-MEX o/w fare on Y4 us 150usd while the lowest SAN-MEX is 226usd. While there is certainly a market for these new SAN flights, other people, such as larger groups or budget travelers may prefer just crossing the border and flying from TIJ.

There's also a much larger variety of Mexican destinations that are unlikely ever to operate from SAN (Y4 is already reducing frequency on SAN-GDL) that Y4 is operating from TIJ, like Acapulco, Oaxaca, Zacatecas, Mazatlan, Monterrey, Morelia, Puebla, etc etc, you can't even get this variety at LAX

All good and valid points (and I did notice a reduction in the GDL service but I'm not sure exactly what's behind that yet.) However, the fact that Volaris even made the decision to come to Lindbergh and compete with their own service from Rodriguez tells me that they see enough of a market north of the border to support this service. (And just maybe, like me, they don't see the project as having much chance of ever happening.)

And of course the trans-border terminal wouldn't be in use for at least a couple of years (even if construction started soon, which is not likely) so Y4 could always pull their flights out of SAN at that time.

Something we'll just have to keep any eye on. The whole San Diego-Mexico air service issue is a big and very complex one for sure! And I don't see that changing anytime soon.

bb


User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3275 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9862 times:

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 2):
Given the crime/drugs issue is Northern Mexico, is this a good idea.

Your crossing into an airport not downtown TIJ. This could be an alternative when SAN reaches capacity in 2015-6.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9837 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 5):
All good and valid points (and I did notice a reduction in the GDL service but I'm not sure exactly what's behind that yet.) However, the fact that Volaris even made the decision to come to Lindbergh and compete with their own service from Rodriguez tells me that they see enough of a market north of the border to support this service. (And just maybe, like me, they don't see the project as having much chance of ever happening.)

Oh I agree   I think that SAN and TIJ can perfectly co-exist, much like HKG and SZX. With AeroMexico exiting the Mexico market out of SAN, there's definitely a void to be filled. If anyone can fill the void I certainly hope it's Y4.

There's certainly some destinations like MEX, GDL, PVR or CUN that could probably do with nonstop service of some sort.

I don't think this makes the US terminal for TIJ obsolete though, it can certainly make life easier for people hoping to hop on a nonstop domestic fight from TIJ that would otherwise mean a connection or two flying out of SAN. Or even one of AMX's oddball longhauls to PVG or NRT.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5229 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9794 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 6):
This could be an alternative when SAN reaches capacity in 2015-6.

Hold on there a minute, '14... I'm not aware that Lindbergh will max out in 5 years! (Phew, someone should have told the SDIA/SDCRAA folks to save their billion dollar, 10-gate expansion, Green Build in that case!)

And I don't really think our airport folks are ready to concede the whole Mexico market out of SAN quite yet anyway. They seem to be rather "neutral" on the whole trans-boder terminal issue (perhaps even, ummm, "doubtful" might be more precise) which is just as well since they can't really do anything about it one way or the other anyway.

Actually, there's plenty of room for international expansion at SAN and I think the management is rather happy to have any new service they can get, even to Mexico!

Quoting SR117 (Reply 7):
I don't think this makes the US terminal for TIJ obsolete though, it can certainly make life easier for people hoping to hop on a nonstop domestic fight from TIJ that would otherwise mean a connection or two flying out of SAN.

I do agree that Lindbergh and the trans-border terminal are not mutually exclusive and they both could serve a purpose, catering to different segments of the traveling public. Again, I just don't think it's going to ever happen.

Quoting SR117 (Reply 7):
Or even one of AMX's oddball longhauls to PVG or NRT.

Hey watch it! Those of us in San Diego are optimistic that we will have our own flights to Asia pretty soon -- and they might even provide service in both directions!  

bb


User currently offlineDesertAir From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 1445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9234 times:

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 2):
Given the crime/drugs issue is Northern Mexico, is this a good idea.

Tijuana is not experiencing the violence we sww in Juarez, Monterrey and other Mexican cities. The USA boarder crossing is the most travelled in th world. the proposed airport brigde will help reduce the number of cars crossing. I also agree that both SAN and TIJ can co-exist since SAN will never have more than a handfull of Mexican destinations. Volarisflights in SAN receive feed from WN.


User currently offlinemalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9159 times:

In the Google maps, I see a big plowed area with service roads right near the terminal, accross the border in the USA, maybe this is the US side parking lot and location of where the bridge starts?


There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5229 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9125 times:

Quoting SR117 (Reply 4):
(Y4 is already reducing frequency on SAN-GDL)

BTW '117, I took a little time last night and looked into the Y4 future sked's. Depending on how accurate and reliable their site's flight schedule engine is, what appears to be happening is that in Sept and Oct, SAN-GDL will operate 5x weekly (X23) most of those 2 months, and with different timing on various days. Then in November, and well into January, the route returns to daily. (And SAN-MEX appears to be remaining daily throughout the year...)

Quoting DesertAir (Reply 9):
Volarisflights in SAN receive feed from WN.

   Especially with the early flights into SAN from GDL & MEX, good WN connections would be possible. However, the returns into Mexico are also pretty early in the day so those options might be somewhat limited.

If the connections work for some, fine, but I don't think the Volaris schedule planners are too concerned about SAN, or any of their U.S. airports', connecting opportunities. For now, it seems that they and WN are just concentrating on on-line connections and O&D traffic.

bb


User currently offlineairlineaddict From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 419 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8614 times:
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Could PR fly into TIJ despite the FAA Cat II status for the Philippines? Can you imagine a PR 77W at TIJ? It would be quite a sight.

With a 9,700 foot runway could the 77W make TIJ-MNL non-stop?

Maybe Sam Zell should call PR...

[Edited 2011-08-13 15:22:58]

User currently offlineghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5197 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8458 times:

Quoting airlineaddict (Reply 12):
With a 9,700 foot runway could the 77W make TIJ-MNL non-stop?

And who would like to fly from MNL to TIJ? MNL-LAX makes sense... but TIJ or let alone, Mexico?

Thanks all for your contributions. Such a shame the US government has no plans to develope a new runway on the US side. Maybe it's too South and far from the city by seeing the picture posted.

g77



Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineairlineaddict From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 419 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8033 times:
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Quoting ghost77 (Reply 13):
And who would like to fly from MNL to TIJ? MNL-LAX makes sense... but TIJ or let alone, Mexico?

PR has wanted to fly to San Diego for quite awhile given the large ethnic population in the Greater San Diego area. However, they have been prevented from flying to SAN due to the Philippines' Cat II status with the FAA. With the bridge from the US side to TIJ, this may allow PR to bypass FAA status and begin service to the San Diego area assuming approvals by the government of Mexico.

The issue now is that PR's plans were to fly to SAN via SEA or YVR. SEA won't be possible because of Cat II status. YVR may be a possibility, but PR would need clearance from both Canada and Mexico, hence the question about nonstop TIJ - MNL.

The 77W is likely too much aircraft for TIJ... but the A343s are likely tied up on other routes.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7437 times:

Quoting airlineaddict (Reply 12):
With a 9,700 foot runway could the 77W make TIJ-MNL non-stop?

Don't most PR flights LAX-MNL make a fuel stop at HNL westbound?


User currently offlineSANMAN66 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 758 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 7293 times:
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Quoting ghost77 (Reply 13):
Such a shame the US government has no plans to develope a new runway on the US side.

The idea was floated in the early 1990's. The plan called for a 12,000ft runway on the US side connected via
taxiway to TIJ's runway. The concept was called TwinPorts. US terminals connected (via bridge) to TIJ's
terminals. The airport would have shared the same ATC with Mexico. Unfortunately, TwinPorts became a victim of extreme NIMBYism in the South Bay (Congressman Bob Filner had a lot to do with killing that idea!)
The runway & terminals on the US side connecting to TIJ made much more sense as it could have really been
able to handle the air capacity in the region. The simple border bridge is not going to do the same.



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User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 931 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 7198 times:
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Several years back, I started a thread which simply asked why US carriers seem to avoid TIJ, even as a RJ operated spoke in a hub and spoke system.

Why No US Carriers To TIJ? (by RobertS975 Oct 15 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Basically, with a population well over 1 million, and the time consuming difficulty of crossing the border to reach SAN, I simply wondered whether TIJ service to the various US trunk carriers' hubs might make a go of it.

I know DL tried TIJ-LAX for a brief time.

But given how tough the San Ysidro border crossing is, I am surprised at the lack of US to TIJ service.


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6170 times:

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 2):
Given the crime/drugs issue is Northern Mexico, is this a good idea.

I agree completely.

TIJ airport is a mess. I have never felt so unsafe in an airport and city for a long time. I flew MEX-TIJ a few months ago and landed at about 2am. TIJ airport was a zoo with people pushing and shoving. The arrivals area was chaotic. I thought for sure I would be mugged waiting for my taxi. This is NOT a safe airport or city for Americans or any Westerners.

This is off-topic I realize but it drove home the point that the US (San Diego) and Mexico (Tijuana) are two different worlds. Transportation integration should not proceed until Mexico cleans up its act with respect to economic growth, border crime, law & order and illegal emigration. This will take generations.

That massive fence that borders TIJ airport needs to be much, much higher....

[Edited 2011-08-13 23:44:57]


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5229 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6131 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 18):
I agree completely.

TIJ airport is a mess. I have never felt so unsafe in an airport and city for a longIf time. I flew MEX-TIJ a few months ago and landed at about 2am. TIJ airport was a zoo with people pushing and shoving. The arrivals area was chaotic. I thought for sure I would be mugged waiting for my taxi. This is NOT a safe airport or city for Americans or any Westerners.

This is off-topic I realize but it drove home the point that the US (San Diego) and Mexico (Tijuana) are two different worlds. Transportation integration should not proceed until Mexico cleans up its act with respect to economic growth, border crime, law & order and illegal emigration. This will take generations.

That massive fence that borders TIJ airport needs to be much, much higher....

I'm sure this is one of the reasons that Volaris started flying into SAN just a month ago now. I've stated many times in the past that when I was a travel agent in the San Diego area I had many, MANY clients bound for Mexico who not ever think of flying out of TIJ. If there was a flight from SAN to their destination, fine. If not, they would either go from LA or they wouldn't go.

I think the problem is much more complex and worrysome now than it used to be and it's interesting to hear a Canadian viewpoint about it. Until things change, I maintain that intl service from Lindbergh Field to Mexico should be successful if done right, and I certainly hope to see more service to more places in Mexico from Volaris, as well as other U.S. and Mexican cx.

bb


User currently offlineSANMAN66 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 758 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6027 times:
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Quoting airlineaddict (Reply 12):
Could PR fly into TIJ despite the FAA Cat II status for the Philippines?
Quoting airlineaddict (Reply 14):
With the bridge from the US side to TIJ, this may allow PR to bypass FAA status and begin service to the San Diego area assuming approvals by the government of Mexico.

Highly doubtful PR would fly to TIJ just to serve SAN in order to get around the FAA Cat II status. Not only does
PR wishes to fly to SAN, but they also want to fly to ORD, JFK, SEA, and DFW. PR would rather wait until
the Cat-II is upgraded so they can expand to all of those cities. If the FAA knew about PR attempting to get
around the upgrade, they would not be pleased. (BTW, the Philippines are shooting for another FAA audit
next month in hopes to get their Cat II upgraded back to Cat I.)

Quoting airlineaddict (Reply 14):
The issue now is that PR's plans were to fly to SAN via SEA or YVR. SEA won't be possible because of Cat II status. YVR may be a possibility,

PR applied for SAN-YVR-MNL just a couple of days before the FAA downgrade. PR already has LAS-YVR-MNL. PR wants to duplicate the same route with SAN, given the large Filipino population.



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User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6017 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 18):
This is NOT a safe airport or city for Americans or any Westerners.

It would be unwise of me to go out on a limb to comment on citywide safey, but can you point me to any documented case where people have been systematically victimized at Tijuana's airport? You can say that it was a bit crazy looking and I would not argue with you, but to label it as "unsafe for westerners" is also a bit a bit of a stretch.

If you're gonna be careful at any Mexican airport, you would do better to watch out at MEX where there have been documented cases of people getting mugged after exchanging money.

And, really, Mexicans aren't part of the western world? That's news to me...

Quoting SANFan (Reply 19):
I'm sure this is one of the reasons that Volaris started flying into SAN just a month ago now. I've stated many times in the past that when I was a travel agent in the San Diego area I had many, MANY clients bound for Mexico who not ever think of flying out of TIJ. If there was a flight from SAN to their destination, fine. If not, they would either go from LA or they wouldn't go.

The convenience factor is of course very valid, and I'm sure there's many people that will indeed pay a premium to fly out of SAN. But I've said it once before, if you're that scared of setting even one foot across the border in Tijuana, will you really be comfortable deeper down south the country?

Ricardo


User currently offlineDesertAir From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 1445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5788 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 18):
TIJ airport is a mess. I have never felt so unsafe in an airport and city for a long time. I flew MEX-TIJ a few months ago and landed at about 2am. TIJ airport was a zoo with people pushing and shoving. The arrivals area was chaotic. I thought for sure I would be mugged waiting for my taxi. This is NOT a safe airport or city for Americans or any Westerners.

I fly in and out of the TJ airport a number of times a year. I think it is a matter of perspective. I live in Tijuana, speak Spanish and have a sense of how to navigate Mexican society. Cultural and system differences make us feel uncomfortable. The airport is being renovated which causes more confusion than normal. I take the same precautions in the TJ airport as I take in any other airport.


User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3275 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5775 times:

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 13):
Maybe it's too South and far from the city by seeing the picture posted.

There is SBM but the NIMBYs will fight to the death if that airport is ever developed. Pilots have to be warned because it is so close toTIJ and similar runway lenghths as not to confuse the two.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineSANMAN66 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 758 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5609 times:
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Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 23):
There is SBM but the NIMBYs will fight to the death if that airport is ever developed. Pilots have to be warned because it is so close toTIJ and similar runway lenghths as not to confuse the two.

There are additional problems with SBM (Brown Field). Otay Mountain sits directly to the east of the
airport. Airliners approaching from the east would have to make a sharp turn to land there (sort of like
the old Kai Tak airport ) Just to avoid the 3,501ft mountain. The mountain would be a major problem for reverse operations taking off to the east.Takeoffs to the west is unobstructed. A new idea of
using the airport as a cargo airport surfaced years ago. Airport officials were looking at moving Fedex,
UPS,and DHL cargo flights from SAN there. Of course the NIMBYs screamed about it, and the only way
it could have been feasible is if approaches were from the west and takeoffs to the west. Flights would
have to coordinate with TIJ's airspace. The TwinPorts idea had the U.S. runway running parallel to the
border where the mountain does not cause a problem for flights arriving from the east. (TIJ does not have
this problem ), or a north-south runway from the U.S. side intersecting with TIJ's runway.



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25 Post contains images EddieDude : Great, so now safety is measured in terms of perceptions. I also have to ask if you have data regarding actual muggings or other crime-related proble
26 CM767 : Unfortunately is a matter of perception not reality, and you can count me in on the "influenced by perception" group. For example last year I insiste
27 Post contains images bjorn14 : Maybe the USA can just annex the TIJ airport.
28 SANMAN66 : You can also add Mexicana and Volaris. Volaris tried an OAK-TIJ flight not too long ago, but dropped it.
29 Post contains images YXXMIKE : With due respect Eddie, even if there was sasitistical evidence from either the state government or federal government I can't say that I would entir
30 HPRamper : Whatever happened to the push to move the main SAN airport to Miramar? A few years back I remember there was some talk about it, as there is a lot mo
31 EddieDude : I do feel the same about corruption. It is a big problem and it is very regrettable. The thing is that I still don't understand how your fellow Canad
32 ghost77 : That would be awesome. I see no problem from the Mexican side authorizing this flight. But are Philippines willing to go on to the hassle crossing???
33 cslusarc : The idea of an expanded and enhanced TIJ sounds promising. I truly hope that it can attract BA, WS and AC away from SAN where high air travel taxes en
34 YXXMIKE : For sure, *hit happens everywhere and that I certainly don't question! There are two specific problems that I would say are Mexico (in particular the
35 SANMAN66 : Explain why you hope this? Exactly.SAN is undergoing an expansion to handle domestic and int'l flights. BA serves SAN because ATI with AA/IB. BA woul
36 C767P : The idea was voted down. After that, the airport looked at how to make the most out of the 661 acres that make up Lindbergh and came up with the 10 n
37 DesertAir : Los Estados Unidos Mexicanos is a nation just like the United Sates of America. The USA cannot just annex the Tijuana Airport. But a bridge from the
38 bobnwa : I think bjorn14 was just jesting and not serious.
39 Post contains images bjorn14 : Thank you. I forgot an emoticon.
40 milesrich : I flew in and out of TIJ, once, in November of 1975, with a group from the Dana Point Yacht Club to PVR, on AM. It was a DC-9-30 flight that stopped a
41 yyz717 : Mexico is arguably part of the 3rd World. The West is traditionally considered to be the US, Canada, Europe, Australia, NZ, Japan, Taiwan, HKG, Israe
42 YXXMIKE : I certainly defended your initial posting about being very overwhelmed flying into TIJ however that is a tad extreme there YYZ717. I'm well aware tha
43 Post contains images Coronado990 : I can see why, not being from the area. You must not be from the area. Currently it is approaching 1 million pax a year. Yeah, just keep all the nois
44 SANMAN66 : Apparently, Cubana did serve TIJ at one time
45 laxdub : No the tech stop is in Guam Hawaiian flies into MNL from HNL
46 Viscount724 : FlightAware shows all recent PR flights from both LAX and SFO to MNL stopping at HNL westbound only. PR's own website also shows a HNL stop westbound
47 Post contains images SR117 : Traditionally? If you want to say "developed world" and argue as to whether we belong there or not, fine, but "The West" refers to cultures of Europe
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