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The American Airlines Outstanding 777-200ER Order  
User currently offlinekaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2306 posts, RR: 3
Posted (2 years 8 months 5 days ago) and read 12542 times:

American Airlines still has 7 777-200ERs on order. Why? Why not convert these to 777-300ERs? Will they actually ever take these aircraft?

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11121 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days ago) and read 12371 times:

Quoting kaitak744 (Thread starter):
American Airlines still has 7 777-200ERs on order. Why? Why not convert these to 777-300ERs? Will they actually ever take these aircraft?

I think it is quite likely AA will take delivery of these aircraft. However, I think it is extremely unlikely that they will take delivery of them as -200ERs - I suspect these 7 outstanding orders will fill out AA's future -300ER fleet, bringing it to a more economically sustainable fleet of 15. The -300ER has better economics than the -200ER.


User currently offlinekaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2306 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12330 times:

Well, ok. They have already ordered 8 777-300ERs. What are they waiting for?

User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4355 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12237 times:

Quoting kaitak744 (Thread starter):
The American Airlines Outstanding 777-200ER Order  

It is great, isn't it?  

I'd speculate they got a better deal from Boeing with the new 77W orders, ,so that it wouldn't make sense to convert the existing order (assuming that price is locked in?). I'd be surprised if these birds ever come to fruition, but if they do I agree it will probably be 77W.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12169 times:

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 2):



Well, ok. They have already ordered 8 777-300ERs. What are they waiting for?


From how it was explained, the 772s were set for a later delivery. AA ordered the 77Ws to arrive before those aircraft with new slots, while the older order is still in place for conversion and delivery after these initial 8. That would make 15 total delivered through 2016, IIRC.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29689 posts, RR: 84
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12122 times:
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Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 2):
Well, ok. They have already ordered 8 777-300ERs. What are they waiting for?

Securing financing to purchase them, I imagine.


User currently onlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17004 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12122 times:

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 2):
They have already ordered 8 777-300ERs.

Oh, so they are now up to 8 77Ws. They seem to order them sporadically.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinekaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2306 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 11975 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Securing financing to purchase them, I imagine.

That is not what I meant. Rather than placing new orders for 8 777-300ERs, they could have converted the 7 to -300ER and then ordered 1 more. This would have been cheaper, as the deposits for those aircraft are already in place.

It is because of delivery slots? I guess we will see.


User currently onlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17004 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 11897 times:

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 7):
Rather than placing new orders for 8 777-300ERs, they could have converted the 7 to -300ER and then ordered 1 more.

Because they will have more than just 8 77Ws. Highly doubt that they will only operate 8 of the type,



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinekaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2306 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 11868 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 8):
Because they will have more than just 8 77Ws. Highly doubt that they will only operate 8 of the type,

yes, and then order more......

say if they plan for 20, they could have only placed 13 new orders and convert those 7, rather than 20 new orders.


User currently onlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17004 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 11829 times:

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 9):
say if they plan for 20, they could have only placed 13 new orders and convert those 7, rather than 20 new orders

But there is nothing yet that indicates why they wont change those 7 772ERs to 77Ws at a later stage. They maybe got a better deal from Boeing ordering a couple of 77Ws from the beginning, rather than just 1 and later on building on the fleet.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6403 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 11776 times:

Hi !

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 2):
Well, ok. They have already ordered 8 777-300ERs.

Boeing's Order and Deliveries website mentions 6 777s ordered by AA this year as of Aug 16. Did they order two 77Ws last year ? Will two be leased ?

The777Man



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly...T5, CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2678 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10861 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 8):
Because they will have more than just 8 77Ws. Highly doubt that they will only operate 8 of the type,

Why not? DL only has 8 772 and then ordered 10 77Ls. The workforce is in the 767. AA has a larger 772 fleet and a large 767 fleet as well. This might be just a higher capacity subfleet for markets with more demand (China, India and London are places that come quickly to mind) or expand to other markets (Sydney or Johannesburg, perhaps?)



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2686 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10392 times:

I know this is kind of off-topic, but I'm trying to figure out the maximum thrust AA's Boeing 777-200ER engines, the Rolls Royce Trent 892-17s, produce. I was told that AA derated them from 92,000 pounds of thrust per engine to 90,000 pounds of thrust per engine, but can find zero sources backing this up, or even stating what their thrust is specified at. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3451 posts, RR: 47
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9923 times:

From the AA 777 OpMan Vol.II --

"The airplane is powered by two Rolls Royce Trent 892 engines. The engines are rated at 90,000 pounds of takeoff thrust each."



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2686 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9185 times:

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 14):

Very much appreciated.



Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlinemalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8509 times:

I am so excited to see the 77W in AA. I have flown on the AA 772 several times and still enjoy it. the 77W is a welcome addition. hopefully next will be the American Airlines Space Freighters


There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1219 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5972 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 3):
I'd speculate they got a better deal from Boeing with the new 77W orders, ,so that it wouldn't make sense to convert the existing order (assuming that price is locked in?). I'd be surprised if these birds ever come to fruition, but if they do I agree it will probably be 77W.

Given the recent massive order tossed airbus's direction, Boeing may not be quite as keen to dop the price of 77Ws, if the deal for 77Es was already negotiated. I would imagine that the landscape has changed a little between AA and B. Considering the gentlemen's agreement was never in writing, and expecially considering AA just broke it, we might have seen the end of majorly preferential pricing for AA outta Chicago (Seattle).

Quoting Thrust (Reply 13):
I know this is kind of off-topic, but I'm trying to figure out the maximum thrust AA's Boeing 777-200ER engines, the Rolls Royce Trent 892-17s, produce. I was told that AA derated them from 92,000 pounds of thrust per engine to 90,000 pounds of thrust per engine, but can find zero sources backing this up, or even stating what their thrust is specified at. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I was surprised by this. I always thought AA's 77Es we're pretty long-legged considering some of the sectors they pull non-stop. DEL-ORD, PEK-ORD, etc. Some of those almost rival CO on EWR-PEK.



Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1558 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5809 times:
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AA like many airlines has a habit of building clauses into their contracts for variance in subtype in a given order. There is likely a price point negotiated in the contract to convert the 772E to W. Given the difference in capabilities, I'd suspect they will convert those to W's when the contract deadline calls for a decision.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16694 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5785 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 17):
Some of those almost rival CO on EWR-PEK.

CO's EWR-HKG, EWR-BOM and EWR-DEL are longer than EWR-PEK.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5454 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 3):
I'd speculate they got a better deal from Boeing with the new 77W orders, ,so that it wouldn't make sense to convert the existing order (assuming that price is locked in?). I'd be surprised if these birds ever come to fruition, but if they do I agree it will probably be 77W.

I don't know how good of a price they will get, they did go mostly Airbus with narrowbody and the 77W are in hot demand. I jsut don't see Boeing bending over backwards for 7 77W's, especially for AA. I don't think Boeing has any incentive here to upheld their end of the gentlemen's agreement, if that is still in effect at all.
Just my 2 cents, what do you guys think about the pricing on 77W's when it comes to AA? I am not at all familiar with waht deals they had prev to the narrowbody order, just speculating here.


User currently offlinewilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5154 times:

Yes, AA is going to get Boeings best price on 777Ws. AA ordering A320s is one thing, AA potentially ordering Airbus A350s is another from Boeing's profit per unit perspective.

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11121 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5012 times:

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 7):
That is not what I meant. Rather than placing new orders for 8 777-300ERs, they could have converted the 7 to -300ER and then ordered 1 more. This would have been cheaper, as the deposits for those aircraft are already in place.

When the first order of any -300ERs was disclosed in the 4Q10 earnings release back in January, AMR made clear that the order (initially 2 aircraft) was placed due to favorable terms available at that time, and that AA was simply taking advantage of an opportunity that presented itself. What - exactly - that means is highly proprietary of course, but some combination of factors, perhaps including favorable terms from Boeing, financing availability, delivery positions in the production line, etc. all combined to create a deal AA obviously felt it couldn't pass up. I'd imagine that the incremental orders since then (which have now brought the outstanding order book to 8) were probably much the same.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 12):
Why not? DL only has 8 772 and then ordered 10 77Ls.

AA generally does not like to operate small fleets/subfleets - even going back years, they have traditionally liked operating fleets at some critical mass in order to gain economies of scale with lots of the indirect cost of supporting a fleet (like spares, training, maintenance, etc.). AA has certainly made exceptions, of course, and continues to do so - such as with the MD11, and the 767-200ER, etc. But, generally speaking, AA likes larger fleets. I suspect the 777-300ER fleet will be not different - AA will want to reach some level of critical mass with the fleet in order to make it more economically viable.

As I have said, I personally do not believe for one second that the outstanding 7 777-200ER orders will ever be taken up by AA as -200ERs - I believe those will ultimately be delivered as -300ERs. If that is correct, the -300ER fleet would then ultimately number at least 15 frames. AA could do a lot with 15 -300ERs.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 12):
This might be just a higher capacity subfleet for markets with more demand (China, India and London are places that come quickly to mind) or expand to other markets (Sydney or Johannesburg, perhaps?)

AA has repeatedly said that the -300ERs can be used both to increase capacity in existing markets and/or to add new markets where the -300ER's unique combination of range and capacity will make routes economically sustainable where the -200ER would not work.

I, myself, believe that a 15-frame -300ER fleet - I am again assuming those remaining -200ERs will ultimately be delivered as -300ERs - could be profitably deployed on, as an example:

1.5 - DFW-GRU (swaps with DFW-NRT)
2.0 - DFW-HKG
1.0 - DFW-LHR
1.5 - DFW-NRT (swaps with DFW-GRU)
2.0 - MIA-EZE
2.0 - MIA-JNB
1.0 - MIA-LHR
1.5 - ORD-BOM (swaps with ORD-HKG)
1.5 - ORD-HKG (swaps with ORD-BOM)

That schedule would drive good utilization and provide one operational spare. Plus, with the 777-200ERs freed up from being replaced by -300ERs on DFW-GRU (1.5), DFW-LHR (1.0), DFW-NRT (1.5), MIA-EZE (2.0) and MIA-LHR (1.0), AA could also open new 777 routes such as:

2.0 - DFW-ICN
2.0 - LAX-PEK
2.0 - ORD-DXB

And the reshuffle could go on and on ...

Just my $0.02 ...

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 17):
Given the recent massive order tossed airbus's direction, Boeing may not be quite as keen to dop the price of 77Ws, if the deal for 77Es was already negotiated.

Boeing knows where their bread is buttered. AA has been and will remain one of Boeing's largest and most strategically important customers - the recent Airbus order notwithstanding. Boeing lost that AA order all on its own by making a strategic mistake in not clarifying their 737 plans sooner - I think Boeing is smart enough not to "stick it" to AA in the future as a result of their own mistakes. Pissing off one of your biggest customers isn't a smart business strategy, and I think Boeing is smart enough to know that.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 17):
Considering the gentlemen's agreement was never in writing

False. Actually - it was not a "gentlemen's agreement" - it was a legally binding contract with an exclusivity clause. It was clearly in writing, but that writing was voided after the Europeans took issue with it.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 17):
we might have seen the end of majorly preferential pricing for AA outta Chicago (Seattle)

Doubtful. Again, AA is still a massive customer of Boeing's and will continue to receive strong financing and preference just as Delta and United still do.


User currently offlinedfwexecplat From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3771 times:

Quoting kaitak744 (Thread starter):
American Airlines still has 7 777-200ERs on order. Why? Why not convert these to 777-300ERs? Will they actually ever take these aircraft?

All you need to do is check their website. It's all there for you to read....They are taking delivery of the 777-200ERs and yes, they do have 8 777W's on order....

http://www.aa.com/i18n/urls/aanews.jsp

Enjoy,


User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6403 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3700 times:

Hi !

Quoting dfwexecplat (Reply 23):
l you need to do is check their website. It's all there for you to read....They are taking delivery of the 777-200ERs and yes, they do have 8 777W's on order....

Thanks for the link. Boeing still only shows 6 77Ws for AA but perhaps AA is in procss of converting 772s to 77Ws for AA. Perhaps AA will finalize the order for the last two shortly ? So for the time being I'll stick with Boeing's number; 6.

Nice to see a US carrier getting the 77W, hopefully DL and UA will add them as well.

The777Man



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly...T5, CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 25, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 18):
AA like many airlines has a habit of building clauses into their contracts for variance in subtype in a given order. There is likely a price point negotiated in the contract to convert the 772E to W. Given the difference in capabilities, I'd suspect they will convert those to W's when the contract deadline calls for a decision.

This explains better what I was trying to convey.

AA couldn't easily convert the 77Ws yet, but will be able to soon, for the delivery slots they have lined up. The new orders allowed them to jump the line on their own existing order, IIRC. The 77Ws on order are scheduled for delivery before the 77Es that haven't been converted.

Beancounters at AA must have determined that the most cost efficient way of ordering 15-20 77Ws was the way they are going about it based on delivery times, contractual pricing, etc.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
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