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LGA Melting Down Due To WX  
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Posted (3 years 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10847 times:

On the 3:35P DL flight from ATL to LGA, and LGA is in a ground stop due to a very slow moving line of storms. My understanding is that the shear on these storms is weak and so the storms to the west are pulsing and moving very little, exacerbating matters. We haven't taken off yet (although we pushed off the gate), and DL has delayed their 4:35, cancelled their 5:35, and also delayed their 6:35.

A colleague was booked on the 2:30 DL Shuttle from DCA to LGA which cancelled, and was rebooked on the 3:30 (which incidentally was an E170 equipment sub using a different Shuttle America configuration with only 6 seats in first as opposed to the usual E175 with 12 in first). They were told there were no delays in the pre-departure PA by the Captain, pushed back, then were told there was a 1 hour 50 minute delay, and after sitting on the taxiway for about 20 minutes were told the delay was stretched in excess of 3 hours so they were going back to the gate and cancelling the flight. The 5:30 and 6:30 shuttles have cancelled, and he's standing by on the 4:30 which is delayed until 6PM.

Just one of those days at LGA. Does make you wonder why DL wants to create a hub there. LGA seems more delay prone than other airports in the NY airspace system.

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMSJYOP28Apilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 221 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10761 times:

Its not just LGA today but also JFK, EWR, PHL with two FCA's. I think EWR is worse than LGA, IMO. It is all about airspace flow. The NY airspace has too much traffic fighting for too few routes. As long as they have as many planes as they do fighting for limited routes, delays will be common. The runway configuration alone due to wind direction and/or availability of navaids and runways can cause major NYC airspace delays. Here is the ATC advisory for LGA GDP:

MESSAGE:

CTL ELEMENT: LGA
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 2023Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: DAS
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 19/2030Z - 20/0359Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 19/1902Z - 20/0359Z
PROGRAM RATE: 25/25/25/25/25/34/34/34
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (ALL+CZY_AP) ZAB ZSE ZFW ZKC ZME ZTL ZOA ZLC ZLA ZAU ZMP
ZDV ZID ZMA ZHU ZJX ZBW ZOB ZDC ZNY
ADDITIONAL DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED:
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYHZ CYOW CYUL CYYZ CYTZ CYQB
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZNY
MAXIMUM DELAY: 449
AVERAGE DELAY: 98
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / THUNDERSTORMS
COMMENTS: NEAR GRIDLOCK AT LGA. GDP REVISION TO LOWER RATE ASSIST.


User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10603 times:

My 3:35 flight just cancelled so it looks like I'm spending the night here. Given the info above, LGA is a definite goat rope tonight. I'd rather spend the night in a hotel, get good night's sleep, and go out on an early flight tomorrow AM.

User currently offlinemoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2311 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10375 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 2):
My 3:35 flight just cancelled so it looks like I'm spending the night here.

There is a line of thunderstorms about to hit NYC - they just put the tarp on the field at Citi Field just as the game was about to begin, even though no rain was falling, as it looked to be minutes away.



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10303 times:

My wife is on the Grand Central right now and told me it is hailing.

User currently offlineFutureFO From Ireland, joined Oct 2001, 3132 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10292 times:

Latest showing from the FAA OIS:



NATIONAL PROGRAMS help
CONTROL ELEMENT START END SCOPE REASON AVG AAR PR ADVZY DA
EWR 1708 0359 ALL + CZY WX / TSTMS 178 25 25 119 DA
JFK 1757 0259 ALL + CZY WX / WIND 72 44 44 109 DA
LGA 1902 0359 ALL + CZY WX / TSTMS 98 25 25 141 DA
PHL 2039 0359 ALL + CZY WX / TSTMS 82 32 32 149 DA
FCAA05 1830 0259 See Control Element... WX / TSTMS 71 -- 85 083 DA
FCAA08 1800 0259 See Control Element... WX / TSTMS 54 -- 120 081 DA

GROUND STOPS help
ARPT UPDATE POE SCOPE REASON ADVZY
BWI 0030 MED ZDC1 + ZAU WX / TSTMS 182
DCA 0030 MED ZDC1 + ZAU WX / TSTMS 185
EWR 0030 MED NOWEST + CZY WX / TSTMS 177
HPN 0030 MED ZTL ZJX ZMA WX / TSTMS 179
IAD 0030 MED ZDC1 + ZAU WX / TSTMS 183
JFK 0030 MED NOWEST + CZY WX / TSTMS 178
LGA 0030 MED NOWEST + CZY WX / TSTMS 180
MMU 0030 MED ZTL ZJX ZMA WX / TSTMS 179
PHL 0030 MED NOWEST +CZY WX / TSTMS 181
TEB 0030 MED ZTL ZJX ZMA WX / TSTMS 179

DELAY INFO help
ARPT AD DD TIME REASON
BWI +90 2230 TM Initiatives:STOP:WX
DCA +15 2206 TM Initiatives:SWAP:WX
EWR +180 2323 TM Initiatives:SWAP:WX
IAD +120 2235 TM Initiatives:SWAP:WX
JFK +150 2334 TM Initiatives:SWAP:WX
LGA +135 2330 WX:Thunderstorms
MIA +30 2105 ZMA/WX:Thunderstorms
PHL +15 2234 ZNY/WX:Thunderstorms
PHL +135 2248 TM Initiatives:SWAP:WX
TEB +240 2322 WX:Thunderstorms

AIRPORT CLOSURES help
ARPT TIME REASON REOPEN



I Don't know where I am anymore
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10217 times:

EWR - 180 Minutes - 3 HOURS. JFK/LGA 2 Hours+ This is not uncommon during severe thunderstormes at these airports. Gonna be a real mess tonight, with crews timing out, some flights cancelled, getting things moving again in some order.

User currently onlinecanyonblue17 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10173 times:

Just head at 8pm EST the controllers at JFK shut down all departures because of weather- including a wind shear warning. Controllers said at least 20-30 minutes before anything moves.

User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4447 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10091 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 6):
EWR - 180 Minutes - 3 HOURS. JFK/LGA 2 Hours+ This is not uncommon during severe thunderstormes at these airports

It's not uncommon even during light showers... or sunny days with a slight breeze either.   


User currently offlinecontrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10079 times:

Sympathies to everyone held up at LGA. I've been there.

This airport doesn't need much to melt down - I've seen it tied up in knots in perfectly good weather. That's why I started taking the train.



Flying Colors Forever!
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4447 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9957 times:

Quoting contrails (Reply 9):
I've seen it tied up in knots in perfectly good weather. That's why I started taking the train.

Me too! Amtrak is actually quite good.


User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3125 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9938 times:

Reading about OMA last night, realizing the much greater frequency of storms in the Great Plains and Midwest, it sure seems that DFW, MCI, STL, DEN, MEM, ORD, MSP all seem to have fewer t-storm related delays. Is it simply the volume of traffic and airport configuration? I'm trying to think of a Midwestern major airport with runways as tight as EWR and LGA, and I'm drawing blanks. Maybe OMA or MKC, but nowhere near as busy.

-Rampart


User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9938 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 11):
s it simply the volume of traffic and airport configuration?

I think beyond configuration, is the proximity of additional high volume airports. I mean, in a fairly close radius, you have EWR, LGA, and JFK, and the airspace challenges those all pose.


User currently offlineflaps30 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9425 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 11):
Reading about OMA last night, realizing the much greater frequency of storms in the Great Plains and Midwest, it sure seems that DFW, MCI, STL, DEN, MEM, ORD, MSP all seem to have fewer t-storm related delays.

The airports you mentioned above are lucky enough to have at least 3-4 runways (DFW & ORD have 7 I believe). LGA and EWR only have 2 (not sure if they use that 3rd runway at EWR).



every day is a good day to fly
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4257 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8511 times:

Not only the above problems, but because NY itself is on a coast, most planes can't simply fly east to avoid the weather because it will take them too much off shore. Also, the problem is there are too many airports in the area, each with a separate arrival route, which means if an arrival into LGA from the south is blocked by storms, they can't reroute it east, because that would put it into the JFK arrival stream, and further east would be too far off shore for many of the planes using LGA. Ditto with arrivals from all other directions. The airspace is not designed to allow planes to be routed well around weather. The airspace redesign is supposed to address this issue, but of course, the NIMBY's don't see it that way.

JFK would actually be able to handle more traffic if it wasn't fighting LGA for airspace. Just because the area has three airports doesn't mean it moves trafffic in the most efficient manner. The question to ask is, would the extra capacity that both JFK and EWR would gain from LGA closing down be worth closing LGA?


User currently offlineAirFrance From United States of America, joined May 2006, 60 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8310 times:

I was on continental express 3064 from ewr-ind to go back to college. We had to deviate well south of the line of storms around state college, pa. Looked pretty nasty stuff. Good thing I got out when I did.


Work Hard, Fly Often
User currently offlinenyc2theworld From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8238 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 14):
Not only the above problems, but because NY itself is on a coast, most planes can't simply fly east to avoid the weather because it will take them too much off shore. Also, the problem is there are too many airports in the area, each with a separate arrival route, which means if an arrival into LGA from the south is blocked by storms, they can't reroute it east, because that would put it into the JFK arrival stream, and further east would be too far off shore for many of the planes using LGA. Ditto with arrivals from all other directions. The airspace is not designed to allow planes to be routed well around weather. The airspace redesign is supposed to address this issue, but of course, the NIMBY's don't see it that way.

JFK would actually be able to handle more traffic if it wasn't fighting LGA for airspace. Just because the area has three airports doesn't mean it moves trafffic in the most efficient manner. The question to ask is, would the extra capacity that both JFK and EWR would gain from LGA closing down be worth closing LGA?

Sounds like we have a solution. Want to fly into NYC...all planes in/out of NYC airports must be ETOPS (min minutes) capable.



Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2693 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8195 times:

Quoting nyc2theworld (Reply 16):
Sounds like we have a solution. Want to fly into NYC...all planes in/out of NYC airports must be ETOPS (min minutes) capable.

It is not a matter of ETOPS.

It is a matter of water ditching equipment being installed (rafts, life jackets).


User currently offlinejetblue777 From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 1452 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8023 times:

Today was a complete mess. A section of I-95 was closed down due to an accident, plus the horrible weather. Took us nearly 7 hours to travel from DC to NYC. Also, I believe I saw a CX 77W at EWR tonight, I could be wrong, can anyone confirm?


It's a cultural thing.
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7971 times:

welcome to a typical day at an NYC airport....

User currently offlineSkyguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 481 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7904 times:

You should have seen the traffic at LGA of cars, taxis, vans jostling and lining up to wait and pick-up passengers. At 1am in the morning it took me 45 minutes to take a loop of the arrivals pick-up, normally this takes no more than 4 minutes. Add to that, there were hoards of people waiting for taxis and milling around. Absolute chaos.


"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
User currently offlinejmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3266 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7667 times:

Quoting catiii (Thread starter):
Does make you wonder why DL wants to create a hub there. LGA seems more delay prone than other airports in the NY airspace system.

It's all about the revenue...nothing else.



.......
User currently offline7478Contrails From Bahamas, joined Aug 2011, 3 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6586 times:

guess i got out right in time...left yesterday around 4 pm out of JFK on AA 1917....this was after about an hour wait on the ground due to the captain having to update the route given to him from atc....saw the storms as we climbed out looked like pretty nasty stuff...

User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3393 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4988 times:

Quoting nyc2theworld (Reply 16):
Sounds like we have a solution. Want to fly into NYC...all planes in/out of NYC airports must be ETOPS (min minutes) capable.


Probably one of the most ridiculous and unfeasable ideas i've ever heard.


User currently offlinepropilotjw From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 589 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4797 times:

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 23):
Probably one of the most ridiculous and unfeasable ideas i've ever heard.

I think (hope) this person is joking.

All I can say is that every time we get heavy rains in NYC, there are delays and cancellations. The good thing is that last night's storms were contained to last night and finished by midnight allowing airlines to have a relatively normal fleet launch this morning. Airlines don't make a schedule based on "worst case scenario" so when storms creating irregular operations come through, it reverberates through the airlines and their schedules.


25 dartland : I had a 5-hour delay yesterday at JFK -- 2.5 hours to board and another 2.5 hours waiting to takeoff. The ground supervisor at UA said in 20years he h
26 pilotpip : Landlocked airports built for a different era is one problem. Then, you have the fact that it's the northeast. Within a couple hundred miles you have
27 sunrisevalley : Would ISP and HPN be less delay prone than the three nearer the city?
28 GoBoeing : Yes -- because nobody wants to drive to them, and so they barely have any flights in comparison.
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