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New Russian Airliners, How Do They Compare?  
User currently offlinewoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1027 posts, RR: 3
Posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9913 times:

With little or no fanfare in the west or even Europe (please correct me if Im wrong), Russian and Ukranian companies have introduced serveral new airliners. There has been a fair amount of discussion regarding the Sukhoi Superjet and the upcoming MS-21 so I am asking how the TU-214 and Antonov 158 stack up the their western rivals. There has been endless discussion on a 757 replacement with little or no talk of the TU-214. As far as economics, how does the 214 compare to the 752/753? What will it take for Russian airliners to be taken seriously? In the case of the Superjet, it seems to compare quite favorably to its competition like the Bombardier C series and Embraer E-jets yet seems to not even be seriously considered by any operator outside of the Russian Federation and maybe China, Iran or the like.

I suppose we could even look at how the TU-214 compares to the 787, I have no idea if Tupelov made us of composites or how the PS-90s compare to other modern turbofans! Id love some insight!

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineGothamSpotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9855 times:

Whether it's fair or not, Russian manufacturers have gotten such a bad safety rep over the years that no western airline would think about buying one unless it were politically pressured to do so, i.e. Alitalia. I can imagine US airlines buying Chinese aircraft before Russian models for similar reasons.

User currently offlineSkyeurope From Germany, joined May 2006, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9828 times:

Really? What about Malev and Blue Panorama? They both ordered the Sukhoi Superjet.

User currently offlinenotaxonrotax From Netherlands, joined Mar 2011, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9821 times:

Quoting GothamSpotter (Reply 1):
Whether it's fair or not, Russian manufacturers have gotten such a bad safety rep over the years that no western airline would think about buying one unless it were politically pressured to do so

Although I don´t disagree with it, your line of thought doesn´t actually answer the question, nor does it come close.

We´re not talking future sales here……….we´re talking TU-214 Vs. B757 fuel burn, maintenance, range, MTOW; that kind of stuff.
I have no idea, but I´m equally curious as to find out how modern Russian jets would perform at the end of the equation; from the technical side that is.


Cheers,


No Tax On Rotax



Als vader voorlicht, kan je merken dat hij achter ligt.
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9771 times:

Quoting Skyeurope (Reply 2):
What about Malev and Blue Panorama? They both ordered the Sukhoi Superjet.

Not this crap again...for the last time, Malev never ordered the SSJ, it was a letter of intent (actually not even that, because what they signed was only a fanfare paper, the real contract was never signed) and was forced on them by the Russian owners who (thank god) since where booted out of Malev's ownership structure. If Malev ever takes any SSJ, that will only be due to political pressure, which unfortunately is now mounting up on them again.



Peet7G
User currently offlineSkyeurope From Germany, joined May 2006, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9277 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 4):
Not this crap again...for the last time, Malev never ordered the SSJ,

Then it seems even Malev's station manager in Stuttgart isn't well informed.


User currently offlinepdpsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1088 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8901 times:

Well, whatever Malev is or is not doing with the SSJ, there is an innovative western carrier that has, indeed, ordered the Superjet. In fact, this particular carrier, Interjet, is based in the Western Hemisphere, Mexico to be exact, and has placed 15 orders and 5 options.

Excluding the SSJ, I would also be very interested to know whether the TU-214 can, indeed, fulfill the same missions as a 757 and whether it can fulfill those missions with lower operational costs. Are the new PS-90 engines as reliable and cost effective as comparable engines from GE, RR and PW? Will the aviation authorities in the US and the EU grant type certification to the TU-214? Does Tupolev operate or can they operate a world-wide parts and servicing system, offering support to customers around the planet?

If there is a favorable answer to all these questions, then one could clearly ask, why aren't all the major 757 operators, UA, DL, AA, etc. ordering a bunch of TU-214s?


User currently offlineCairnterriAIR From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8863 times:

From what has been reported, the SSJ-100 at least on paper may be comparable to similarly sized western aircraft. While it is a Sukhoi product, the project was assisted by Italy, Boeing is offering consulting and back sales support, and I do believe the engines are a joint French/Russian venture. An airline in Mexicoo has ordered the plane, and once in service and if it does indeed prove to be an economical performer, one may see a U.S. carrier or two place an order. Remember, it took just one airline (Eastern) to place an order for a then unheard of line (Airbus)....to make that said line eventually successful.

User currently offlinejfk787nyc From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8778 times:

OK, I personally believe the Russian Airliners do have a future.

The Russian & Ukranian enterprises have massive experience in building airplanes. The Sukhoi Fighter jets are one of the most advanced fighter jets in the world, They dominate markets and are direct competitiors to American fighter jets.

If the world has no problem buying Russian made fighter jets eventually the world will start buying Russian made airliners.

India is probably going to be a huge market for the Russian made airliners eventually, Brazil, Venezuela and the rest of latin america Def, Most countries in ASIA except for Japan, Most Eastern European Countries, All of Central Asia and some parts of Africa are going to be the dominate markets where Russian airliners will go. Russia does not need the EU or the USA.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8754 times:

I believe a grand total of 7 Russian airliners were delivered last year. That says all that needs to be said about the competitiveness of Russian aircraft. Their ability to provide adequate after-sale support is also a big question mark.

User currently offlineTK1244 From Netherlands, joined May 2007, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8627 times:
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Quoting pdpsol (Reply 6):
Excluding the SSJ, I would also be very interested to know whether the TU-214 can, indeed, fulfill the same missions as a 757 and whether it can fulfill those missions with lower operational costs. Are the new PS-90 engines as reliable and cost effective as comparable engines from GE, RR and PW? Will the aviation authorities in the US and the EU grant type certification to the TU-214? Does Tupolev operate or can they operate a world-wide parts and servicing system, offering support to customers around the planet?

Beside the fact that the Tu-204-120 uses the same engine type as 757 (Rolls-Royce RB211), how is the new version of this jet (Tu-204SM) doing? The latter variant is equipped with more efficient Perm PS-90A2 turbofans, two-pilot flightdeck, upgraded auxiliary power unit and conditioning system and lighter wiring.

IIRC the lack of spare parts, unreliability of several components and the slow production were several reasons for its bad sales figures.



"The future is in the skies. For any nation that cannot defend its skies will never be confident of its future." Atatürk
User currently offlinepylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8521 times:

All new Russian aircraft will have adequate after sale support.
The new system is worked out for SSJ-100.
It includes 7/24 service based on Sukhoi Center at SVO and Sukhoi International (Alenia/Sukhoi joint venture) in Venice.
Lufthansa Technik provides delivery of any spare part within 24 hours.

The same service will be provided for MS-21 customers.
This makes huge difference between new ailiners and ones from the previous epoch.

That is the answer to question about TU-204/214.
Yes, it is a very good airplane comparable with Boeing-752
Say, VIM Airlines have all 752 fleet while Red Wings all TU-204 fleet.
They have about the same network and both are profitable.

The difference is that TU-204/214 is not certified by EASA/FAA and is not supposed to.
And it is considered as an intermediate to MS-21.

SSJ-100 and MS-21 are planned by UAC RUSSIA to be manufactured in 1,000 copies each.
This number can easily be sold outside U.S. and EU.
But as I have been following both projects very closely I don't see reasons why SSJ-100 and MS-21 would be not competitive in US or Europe.
Stereotypes? They do exist. But who knew of Embraer until SkyWest ordered EMB-120 Brasilia for United and Delta commuting?
If plans materialize as I hope, Russia will save its capabilities as pax aircraft airframe and engine manufacturer.


User currently offlineglideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5779 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
believe a grand total of 7 Russian airliners were delivered last year. That says all that needs to be said about the competitiveness of Russian aircraft. Their ability to provide adequate after-sale support is also a big question mark.

This is the real issue IMO.

The after sale service and support simply is not there. Forget fuel burns, MTOW, and build quality. Until they can come even REMOTELY close to support packages A&B put together for customers, it's DOA.



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineglideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 5722 times:

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 11):

All new Russian aircraft will have adequate after sale support.
The new system is worked out for SSJ-100.
It includes 7/24 service based on Sukhoi Center at SVO and Sukhoi International (Alenia/Sukhoi joint venture) in Venice.
Lufthansa Technik provides delivery of any spare part within 24 hours.

Time will tell. I can't see what your describing being in place any time soon. What good is 24 delivery with LH when no replacement part exists?



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1554 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 5684 times:
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http://www.airlines-inform.com/commercial-aircraft/Tu-214.html

6,200 km=3,852 miles is range with max payload for the TU-214.

As glideslope mentioned, service/support is the key even if the engines happen to be RR or GE.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16927 posts, RR: 48
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 5640 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
I believe a grand total of 7 Russian airliners were delivered last year. That says all that needs to be said about the competitiveness of Russian aircraft

   I think the orders and deliveries give you all you need to know.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineliedetectors From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 5622 times:

Quoting GothamSpotter (Reply 1):
Russian manufacturers have gotten such a bad safety rep over the years that no western airline would think about buying one

A good point. I am curious, has any Russian airliner ever gotten FAA/EASA certification? Until that happens, you probably won't see one flying in the Western airlines. If the Sukhoi jet get it, you might see it coming to a city near you soon.



If it was said by us, then it must be true.
User currently offlineSevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1390 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4235 times:

Quoting glideslope (Reply 13):
Time will tell. I can't see what your describing being in place any time soon.

As stated before, it is in place already.

Quoting glideslope (Reply 13):
What good is 24 delivery with LH when no replacement part exists?

Care to elaborate this opinion, which is far from the truth.



Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
User currently offlinepdpsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1088 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3987 times:

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 11):
The difference is that TU-204/214 is not certified by EASA/FAA and is not supposed to.
And it is considered as an intermediate to MS-21.

SSJ-100 and MS-21 are planned by UAC RUSSIA to be manufactured in 1,000 copies each.
This number can easily be sold outside U.S. and EU.

What are you talking about? Are you suggesting they do not require type certification?

As I asked in my question earlier, US and EU type certification would be absolutely necessary should these aircraft, for the SSJ or MS21 to be marketed anywhere in world, outside of perhaps the ex-CIS or N. Korea.

Serious carriers in East Asia, South Asia, South East Asia, Latin America, the Middle East, Africa, whatever market you can think of, will not acquire these types unless they receive certification from the FAA and EASA. Why would civil aviation authorities in, say, the PRC, the CAAC, grant certification unless their western colleagues have done so and vice versa?

I was specifically referring to the new TU-214:
- Will it be certified?
- Can it perform missions identical to the 757-200?
- Are its Perm engines as reliable and capable and more efficient than its RR and PW comps?
- Can TU and the UAC and Superjet or whatever the Russian civil aircraft industry calls itself now offer global support?
- Is it more cost effective than its 757-200 counterpart?


User currently offlinepylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3742 times:

1. SSJ-100 is supposed to get EASA certification by the end of the year.
Sure MS-21 will follow.
2. I have never heard of plans of pursuing EASA certification for TU-204/214 or AN-148/158.
It is an long and expensive process - and those types just don't have orders to justify efforts.
3. None of Soviet/Russian aircraft had EASA certification besides YAK-40 in the 1970s.
4. National certificate of type is enough to fly to any EU country or U.S.
5. EASA/FAA certification is mandatory for respective countries and their airlines.
6. The number of AN, TU and IL aircraft flying around the world prove the fact that EASA/FAA certification is not required for airlines registered in countries which are not EASA?FAA memebers.
7. Aircraft for specific purposes (like Be-200 or IL-76 firefighters) may have EASA certification of a particular type - which is much easier to get than one for pax service.
8. I have never looked into TU-204/214 deep enough to compare this aircraft with Boeing-752 in terms of fuel consumption.
These numbers are not so easy to get.


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