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Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 1)  
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5796 posts, RR: 47
Posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 41115 times:

This is out on Bloomberg so I'll try to find a link and post it but apparently Delta will be ordering 100 737-900ER. The Delta Board will vote on the purchase this week. Still don't know the delivery time frame and if these are re-engined 737s.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/print/...eing-737s-in-rebuff-to-airbus.html

[Edited 2011-08-22 17:51:52 by srbmod]


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
268 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10805 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 41136 times:

Interesting, and I think a bit surprising. This would be mainly 757 replacements then, right?

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5796 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 41069 times:

Quoting na (Reply 1):
Interesting, and I think a bit surprising. This would be mainly 757 replacements then, right?

Sounds like it but we'll know more when the official announcement comes out.

Deal value is $8.5bn at list prices.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 41033 times:

That blows my mind. 900ERs? Not reengines?

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8457 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40820 times:
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Quoting delimit (Reply 4):

That blows my mind. 900ERs? Not reengines?

This is the 757 replacement order. The 737-900ER killed the 757 since its so more efficient.


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40812 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 4):
That blows my mind. 900ERs? Not reengines?

Well this order is apparently for only 100 aircraft. They need at least double than that in the long term, but the 739 can be delivered very soon. I'm sure follow-up orders will/can be placed for Reengined aircraft as they need them.


User currently offlineCerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 740 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40800 times:

DL was looking to order 200 NBs. so what happened to the other 100?

User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5947 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40707 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
This is the 757 replacement order. The 737-900ER killed the 757 since its so more efficient.

I don't think so. The 737-900ER wasn't even a thought when Boeing ended the 757 line. But the -900ER is the next best Boeing aircraft. I don't think the 737-900ER has the range the 757's have.


User currently offlineAA767LOVER From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2007, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40652 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):

and . . . so much more cramped! I hope that these won't replace all the 757's on the Intra-Asian routes too. Then they'll end up doing the same as UA with the HKG-NRT and HKG-SIN and HKG-SGN flights.



J.I. Tsui, American Advantage Member, United Mileage Plus (Premier)
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5768 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40647 times:

A near-term 737NG order is not a surprise at all. I'm just surprised it's all -900ERs (if these reports are correct). I would have expected 738s in today's capacity-shrinking world.

DL has quite a number of older 757s that need to be replaced, in airplane terms, *now*. They are about to run out of cycles. It also has a few older A320s that need replacement sooner rather than later. They can't wait for the new engines for their most immediate needs. And, for old-engined aircraft, it makes more sense for them to order from Boeing than Airbus. Their existing 738 fleet is newer than their existing A320 fleet and the type seems to fit their network a little better than the A320oeo.

I think this only gives Boeing the slightest of advantages for the new-engine order, though. That's a new ballgame and the A321neo will still be a very compelling product for DL even after this order.


User currently offlinealitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4760 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40579 times:

I'm sure any order will include a clause to switch to newer/upgraded models should Boeing pursue.


Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10805 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40578 times:

If its the current 739ER and not the reengined version I bet Boeing gave them a sweeeeeeet deal.

User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40581 times:

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 9):
and . . . so much more cramped!

The fuselages are precisely the same width and height.

NS


User currently offline1337DELTA764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40530 times:

Great news! I hope DL specifys them to have AVOD, as well as the Sky Interior.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5768 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40481 times:

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 7):
DL was looking to order 200 NBs. so what happened to the other 100?

Those are to fill less immediate replacement needs, so they can wait for new-engine aircraft. Expect another order.

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 9):
and . . . so much more cramped!

   What?

The 757 and 737NG have *exactly* the same cabin width, and the 739ER is only a couple rows shorter than the 752. On top of that, these 737NG will presumably have the Sky Interior, which feels a lot more open than the traditional narrow body interiors.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7550 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40483 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
This is the 757 replacement order. The 737-900ER killed the 757 since its so more efficient.
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 8):
I don't think the 737-900ER has the range the 757's have.

The 900 definitely does not have the range of the 757. I'm wondering if this is a re-engine version. That would have 20%+ more range.


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40434 times:

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 7):
DL was looking to order 200 NBs. so what happened to the other 100?

That's partially what surprises me. I was expecting word on the whole order later in the year.

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 9):
and . . . so much more cramped!

? It's the same. The 757 is just longer.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 10):
I think this only gives Boeing the slightest of advantages for the new-engine order, though. That's a new ballgame and the A321neo will still be a very compelling product for DL even after this order.

If this truly is for 100 900ERs, I think there are going to be a lot fewer 321s ordered than their might have been. Honestly I am ambivalent about both, so this isn't fandom speaking. If they've ordered 100 900ERs, the only reason to order 321s is for missions that they can perform that the 900ER can't and the 757s will age out of.

Really I am amazed by this. I would have given the 321 NEO about a 90% chance of taking this.

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 11):
I'm sure any order will include a clause to switch to newer/upgraded models should Boeing pursue.

Doesn't the contract DL has in place with Boeing allow that for any order?


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40430 times:

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 9):
and . . . so much more cramped! I hope that these won't replace all the 757's on the Intra-Asian routes too.

The 757 and 737 have the exact same fuselage width.


User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40301 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 18):
I would have given the 321 NEO about a 90% chance of taking this.

And with delivery dates so far out, I would have probably given you even higher odds of it going 100 321oeo 100 321neo.

With an Airbus skill set on the property, purchasing 737-900ERs just doesn't make much sense to me. There has to be information I/we don't have about what made it compelling for Delta.

NS


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1077 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40243 times:

Could it simply be like AA's order? 100 737900ER and 100 737RE (pending Boeing board approval to offer the new 737RE unit).

If this is true, good move. No need for 757's on the ATL to Carribean, Florida, etc. routes where the 739 can do it cheaper.


User currently offlineCerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 740 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 40236 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 15):
Expect another order.

Sure, but why separate the short-term vs long-term order? Both A and B would have offered a combination of Classic/NEO and NG/RE and DL would have considered both proposals as a package. I found it difficult to understand the need to separate the two.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5768 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 41429 times:



Quoting gigneil (Reply 21):
With an Airbus skill set on the property, purchasing 737-900ERs just doesn't make much sense to me. There has to be information I/we don't have about what made it compelling for Delta.

The existing 738s will stay on property longer than the existing A319s and A320s. Most of them are newer, and they have had better economics for Delta. So the 739ERs will bring commonality for a longer period of time. And the A321oeo doesn't have nearly the advantage over the 737 that we should expect the A321neo to have. For the old-engine aircraft, the choice makes sense to me.

[Edited 2011-08-22 17:48:37 by srbmod]

User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10805 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 41465 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 18):
I would have given the 321 NEO about a 90% chance of taking this.

1. Delta would have almost zero chance to receive 100 A321 NEOs before 2020. And such a a large order for the current A321 version wouldnt be the wisest move the airline could have done.
2. under the impact of the heavy slaps that the 737 received recently due to the massive A320 NEO order hausse Boeing has surely given Delta a great bargain.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5768 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 42109 times:

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 24):
Sure, but why separate the short-term vs long-term order?

I think this decision was probably an easier one than the long-term order will be. And they need to secure the short-term delivery positions now. They really are out of time with their oldest 757s.


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 42067 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 21):
With an Airbus skill set on the property, purchasing 737-900ERs just doesn't make much sense to me. There has to be information I/we don't have about what made it compelling for Delta.

That's why I am so surprised. The barrier to entry for the 321 at DL is so low, and it is just a better 757 replacement full stop.

Also, just how many 757s are really due to go ASAP. I know there are a few from NW that are seriously past their prime, but I am unsure of how old the DL fleet is in total. I had thought that the majority of it still had a good bit of service left in it.

[Edited 2011-08-22 07:02:31]

25 delimit : Slots were found for AA. I rather doubt that slots wouldn't be found for DL, given their value as an ongoing customer. They must have. Especially as
26 Post contains images InsideMan : exactly, availability was probably a deciding factor, as AA bought up the remaining slots for the A321 Besides Boeing needed good news, so the price
27 Post contains links PanAm_DC10 : Looks like one of the orders spoken of in the 737 thread, the last replies specifically discuss a Boeing order, 737RE To Become 737-7/-8/-9 (by BlueS
28 Jacobin777 : There no specific slots for the A321. IIRC, carriers can choose between any of the A32X Simple, all things considered, Boeing happened to provide DL
29 DFWHeavy : Yay. I'm so excited they ordered the 739ER. It is still a very very efficient aircraft and will have much lower trip costs than a 757. It's only drawb
30 washingtonian : How so? Most of my Delta 757 flights are on routes like DCA-ATL, or ATL-FLL, where a 739 is more-than-adequate to serve as a replacement...
31 seabosdca : Actually, based on cycles, it's the earliest PMDL birds that need replacement first. Especially early in their careers, DL used them on more short ho
32 par13del : I thought DL also has 738's in their fleet which are newer than the current A32X a/c inherited from NW, why discount the 737 skill set? Airbus has pu
33 ERJ170 : Why? I mean, the Boeing product has served Delta proudly for years. I think DL and Boeing are about as synonimous as Delta and American Express or De
34 Cerecl : At any rate, Congrats to Boeing and DL for this significant order!
35 frigatebird : Was this a winner takes all RFQ? If not, the other 100 could go Airbus or even BBD... Although Boeing should be in pole position for that part as wel
36 frigatebird : Really? I thought Airbus have confirmed EIS of the A321NEO, and won't make any further changes. Which would make sense, to keep commonality within th
37 Cerecl : Sorry, personally I am not convinced. It is not like 737RE is some sort of top secret project that needed to be kept under wraps. What prevents DL fr
38 fpetrutiu : Congrats DL and Boeing. Nice to see more Bowing planes in DL's hands. The B739's will be a nice replacements for the old 752's. Ok, now, if the B739RE
39 frigatebird : Nothing, but it's a different company and maybe they only want to announce an order when it's firm. Just a guess. And maybe they are going to surpris
40 1337DELTA764 : Also, I would assume these aircraft will be fitted with B/E Aerospace Pinnacle seats in Y (like what is planned for the A330 fleet), except without wi
41 gigneil : Even at expectations it won't even come close. The A321neo either. NS
42 AA1818 : Perhaps they have not fully decided on the Boeing 737RE since it is yet to be fully defined. Only then would it make sense to choose the product. I s
43 joeljack : Does the 737-900ER have the main cabin door behind first class like the 757 does? From the passenger perspective this is the main advantage of the 757
44 STT757 : Very exciting news, should hold my enthusiasm until it's confirmed but none the less it's still exciting to see another big Boeing order. I think with
45 jetlanta : This deal was always Boeing's to lose, especially after the AA order. People forget that Delta has about 70 737NG options over the next three years, p
46 bobnwa : I don't believe that AVOD is important to DL or its customers, although it does seem to be important to some a.netters
47 Post contains links and images Transpac787 : You need only look at a picture of one to figure this out on your own. View Large View MediumPhoto © Josh Akbar - PHX Spotters No, it does not have
48 seabosdca : Definitely not winner-takes-all. And, if you include options, there will be considerably more than 100 aircraft involved. Airbus is very much in this
49 Post contains images KPDX : Of course... Airbus gets a big deal: Well, it's the best plane. Boeing gets a big deal: Wow, they must have got one sweet deal! [Edited 2011-08-22 08:
50 delimit : Cargo. Thanks, that was exactly how I remembered it.
51 STT757 : Again cargo does not make any flight for a US airline domestically , otherwise the regional jet would not have taken over so many former mainline fli
52 Post contains links jetlanta : According to Leeman, it was indeed a matter of slots and pricing: http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2011/08/22/delta-to-order-737-900s/
53 delimit : I understand that. I was just replying to the advantage the 321 has over the 739. Don't get me wrong, from a purely personal point of view I am happy
54 1337DELTA764 : Not surprised. I always knew that Boeing would never let DL run into Airbus' hands.
55 brons2 : What are the time/cycle limits on the 757? 100,000 hours/cycles?
56 Stitch : Based on reports I am hearing, Airbus won the AA business in part because they offered the A320oeo and A320neo at prices below Boeing's "best pricing
57 Post contains links jetlanta : More insight...all 737-900ERs will be delivered by 2018. So the aforementioned existing Delta Options/Rolling Options certainly played a role. The pie
58 seabosdca : It's the cycles that are the issue. The limit on the 757 is 50,000 (which can be exceeded, but at great expense), and DL's oldest batch of 757s is we
59 Post contains links parapente : Quoting jetlanta (Reply 49): This deal was always Boeing's to lose, especially after the AA order. People forget that Delta has about 70 737NG options
60 jetlanta : Thanks! I've been mentioning the preexisting options/rolling options that Delta has for 737s for weeks now. I've been surprised how few people really
61 delimit : That would be a very sweet smell.
62 commavia : Perhaps - early reports indicated that Airbus also offered AA extremely favorable terms on support with the start-up costs of the A320 fleet in order
63 ultrapig : I've flown in both the 757 and 737. For some reason the 757 seems less cramped as stated abotu but aren't the cabin width and height's the same? I kn
64 keesje : DL’s (NWAs) DNA striking again. They have a track record of closing opportunistic deals against the mainstream to make big savings. (e.g. investing
65 Post contains links and images seabosdca : They are identical. The 757-300 and a few late 757-200s are even equipped with the exact same side panels, ceiling panels, and bins as the 737NG. I t
66 airbazar : Boeing may not have had to do much here at all. With Airbus as good as sold out of NB aircraft for the next 5-7 years, and DL already holding Boeing
67 Post contains images peanuts : Just one thought comes to mind with this order for DL: Very practical. Nothing splashy, nothing earth-shattering... This order represents the state DL
68 Post contains links Jacobin777 : According to this, its for both the B739ER and B739-9: Delta Air Lines (DL) is expected to announce a large order this week for Boeing 737-900s and 7
69 oykie : Interesting news. Thank you for sharing. The B739-9 might prove more popular than the B739ER, as it will have true trans continental range without au
70 PPVRA : I tend to think the CSeries has the best chances in this case, but I wonder if DL could turn out to be the launch customer for a E190/195NEO. Embraer
71 USAirALB : Now I wonder, seeing as they may replace some of the older 752s, will DL order these birds with doors 2L/R activated?
72 VivaGunners : Congrats to Delta and Boeing. I personally like the 739ER, just not as much as the good old 757 though... It is very Sad to see that such a wonderful
73 seabosdca : There is no conventional middle door on a 739ER. The mid/aft doors are emergency doors which are only needed if the aircraft will seat more than 189.
74 gigneil : I'm not too sure they need it. The extra doors are to increase the maximum capacity in 1 class. Not so necessary in 2 class. NS
75 goldenstate : Nice theory, but it's not entirely up to Boeing and there are still a lot of strategic decisions yet to be made by DL.
76 BoeingGuy : I less expected to ever see AA purchase Airbus airplanes. It happened. If that happened, than I would never say never to anything anymore. Nothing wo
77 par13del : If you combine the former NW with the current DL it's all true in a manner of speaking.
78 jetlanta : I think the 757 TATL replacement is probably already in the fleet...the 767-300ER. As evidenced by the investments Delta is making in that fleet, it
79 laxboeingman : Will these aircrafts be for their narrow body replacement (choosing Boeing as the company) or will these be in addition, or another purchase all toget
80 seabosdca : The existing TATL 757s (both PMDL and PMNW) probably have 15 years of life left in them if DL wants them to. A 757 flying only 6-hour transcons and 8
81 Post contains images ikramerica : Yep, Boeing wins are always about price, never about merit.
82 fpetrutiu : Wouldn't that be NW not DL? I don't think DL ordered a sigle A330, they were all inherited from NW. Are you kidding?
83 MSPNWA : I agree with you. This order isn't a big surprise to me because Delta didn't have many options to choose from. They need to start replacing older 757
84 Post contains links mffoda : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...wbody-order-at-100-737-900ers.html C-Series still a possibility according to Flight Global??
85 ikramerica : Of course, but you see, mister K believes this. He includes those Airbus wins in the list to be "fair" but if you were to ask him about those, every
86 mcg : Will the 757's displaced by these 737-900's have any value? Will they go to FedEX? Or are they simply 'used up' and go to the scrapper?
87 seabosdca : This pretty much describes the earliest batch. If they get a lot of 737-900ER deliveries early, they may retire a few 757s with enough life left to m
88 jfk777 : Why wasn't the -900ER a thought when Boeing ended 757 production ? It can fly transcon with only about 15 less passengers and uses lots less fuel. Th
89 gigneil : It didn't exist. NS
90 warreng24 : DL has over 161 757 aircraft. Only 33 are TATL configuration. Assuming a 1 for 1 replacement of 757's to 739ER's, that'll leave 61 757's in the fleet.
91 NeutronStar73 : What i find fascinating in this discussion is the fact that the "experts" are saying the reason Delta bought the 739ER was solely because of "delivery
92 gigneil : It isn't. Today's A321 is better in every way than today's 737-900ER. Even Leeham says this was about price and delivery positions, and as jetlanta h
93 Jacobin777 : You're welcome, and I agree, the B739-9 might potentially be an excellent transcon plane. Even for the B739ER, its good to see the largest B737 famil
94 BoeingGuy : Really? And on what basis do you say that? I worked with former US pilots who say the A321 is a total "pig" as far as performance.
95 delimit : To be fair, as neither Delta, nor Boeing have commented on the decision, your entire post is based on conjecture. If we add the caveat, "in ways that
96 gigneil : And have you worked with former CO pilots that say the 737-900ER isn't? NS
97 seabosdca : Not by enough to matter, as evidenced by transaction prices. The differences will get bigger with the A321neo/737-9. So is the 739ER. It's got very b
98 InsideMan : no, but it's going against the current market trend to say the least... Indeed. I forgot about that. Makes it even harder for Boeing to bite the bull
99 Post contains links mdword1959 : Am I mistaken or is Flightblogger is reporting a somewhat different "storyline:" http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...elta-said-to-order-100-737-90.
100 B727FA : They never said all orders would be announced at the same time.
101 bobnwa : Delta announced this afternoon Aug 22, "Delta does not have any information to release regarding new aircraft. How we about we wait for them to announ
102 DFWHeavy : Today's A321 does not clearly beat the 739ER in every way. There are a lot of missions where the 739ER is indeed more efficient.
103 jetjack74 : Newer than about 20% of the existing fleet of A320's. We recieved the last bulk of A320s in 1999-2001 timeframe, ships 3260-3273 delivered around tha
104 Post contains links pnwtraveler : Jon/Flightblogger has a quote about it now. First 100 confirmed, no rush for the remainder. http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...elta-said-to-order-
105 Stitch : Just because it is not public knowledge does not mean it has not happened. There are reports that Airbus offered AA the A320 below Boeing's "special"
106 keesje : According to Air Insight, the carrier will take delivery of all 100 by the end of 2018. I really wonder how many A321 NEO's Delta could have got by 20
107 Stitch : AA supposedly wanted all their planes by 2015, which was before the A320neo would EIS. However, they then adjusted their delivery schedule to accommo
108 Post contains images InsideMan : Please provide links/proof otherwise I will dismiss this as fanboyism and I know you are better than that
109 delimit : The Delta order was to be for 200 narrow body aircraft. Delta used this number on the earnings call. This takes care of the larger portion of the ord
110 seabosdca : None. This was a contest between 739ER and A321oeo. They don't need 250 planes immediately; they need 100, for early 757 and early A320 replacement.
111 1337DELTA764 : As for which particular aircraft these will replace, I presume it includes most of the older PMDL fleet, as well as all of the 5500-series PMNW aircra
112 Blueman87 : I think that might come in November when they said ther order would come
113 isitsafenow : I need an airline R&D person to s'plain this too me. Domestic wise, how can you take a 190 seat plane(or thereabouts) and replace it with a 165 se
114 Hamlet69 : I don't mean to call you out specifically, but I am finding it more and more humorous on this forum that "If there isn't a website link, it's not tru
115 STT757 : Standard DL domestic 757 is about 186 seats, CO's 737-900ERs seat 173. A difference of 13 seats.
116 Stitch : Aircraft Value News recently had an article about it, but they are a subscription service so I do not believe we are allowed to re-publish their infor
117 Post contains images InsideMan : Well, first of all, it's easy to say "X is giving their planes away for free" without backing it up, it's not worth much. Obviously one can't write i
118 ukoverlander : I'm sure if you are the second largest airline in the world, with a mixed fleet of Boeing and Airbus aircraft, with significant near and medium term
119 delimit : When someone says something particularly controversial (which Stitch actually did not) I think asking for some kind of third party corroboration is t
120 keesje : I see ~175 x 757, 125 x older A320, 110 x MD88, some DC9s in the fleet. 400 NBs at least in this decade. If they wait much longer, planning flexibili
121 Post contains images Stitch : Clearly they deal in trends and averages, but they couldn't charge the rates they do if their information was little more than Wild Arse Guesses... I
122 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Delta does not need 400 new build aircraft to replace the 757s. The 737-900ER is fine for the domestic 757-200 replacement. Bombardier and Embraer ca
123 Stitch : Or increase if they become the launch customer for the 797 should Boeing offer it in the early 2020s (as well as the A30X should Airbus do the same).
124 747400sp : Yes you are right, but you not going to get that rocket ship feel on take off, out of a 739ER.
125 Post contains images Stitch : Hopefully the LEAP-X1B for the 737-9 will add a couple thousand pounds more thrust to help field performance and customer thrills.
126 bjorn14 : Is the range still 3265nm for a 739ER?
127 odwyerpw : 757 has a slightly different lower lobe section...only the crown is identical between the 737 and 757. the lower lobe permits the floor to be lowered
128 MNMncrcnwjr : I would say from a pax stand point I'd rather ride the A3xx than a 73x as the aisles are wider and the overheads are roomier ... the 319 I rode this
129 1337DELTA764 : That of course won't be the case if DL goes with the Sky Interior, which has pivot bins.
130 ERJ170 : I'd say from a pax stand point I'd rather ride a 73X than a A3XX because from a headache point of view, the A3XX are a lot louder and the whine from
131 qfa787380 : It most certainly does! And there are whispers to that effect as well. Although after just reading Leeham News, it appears any 100-150 seat order has
132 ER757 : I see you've just joined, not sure if you were a frequent visitor prior to joining up, but in case you were not....over time you'll learn who does an
133 ikramerica : So easy to tell as a tall person walking down the inside of both cabins. The 737 also has a more extreme taper in the front end of the passenger cabi
134 rikkus67 : We must remember that NWA was very interested in the C series. Considering the standardized size that Delta has chosen for the 737's, I believe the o
135 skymiler : But any chance we can get an L2 boarding door? This is one of the best features of the 757's.
136 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : If a customer wanted a L2 door Boeing could build such a model. However, it would require FAA certification and at least two seat rows or about six p
137 seabosdca : I stand corrected. Looking at a whole bunch of photos shows you're right. There is slightly more headroom in the 757. Honestly, seat width is more im
138 Post contains images Cerecl : Sure, but if the order is from one single supplier it makes sense to announce both. Please also keep in mind that the information about postponement
139 Post contains images gigneil : Zero. NS
140 qfa787380 : I guess the 321 just isn't that much better than the 739ER! With a big incumbent Airbus fleet and a load of Airbus friendly ex NW management, how did
141 Post contains images lightsaber : I'm surprised there has been less discussion on what the DL and AA orders mean for 752 resale values! This is going to provide a HUGE amount of feed-s
142 gigneil : Can you not read the thread? Leeham has 3 sources saying price and availability. Jetlanta tells you the delivery slots were key. You're just not havi
143 Post contains images Cerecl : Right, this was a David vs Goalith situation as the number of Boeing aircrafts in DL fleet is really tiny...
144 qfa787380 : Airbus have been into this one for ages and touted as favourites in the media for quite a while as well. Good win for Boeing and a surprise loss for
145 qfa787380 : Well, I'm sure you have been keeping abreast of developments here. The order was always going to be for around 200 planes. Looks like 100 at least 73
146 qfa787380 : Should we expect anything less from you! Why not wait until the formal announcement and see what the mix of aircraft is. Very likely there will be a
147 rwy04lga : And Stitch is also counted amongst them.
148 777STL : DL's ex-TW 757s aren't all that old, relative to other 757s. I believe most of them were built in the mid to late 90s so that would put them at 15 ye
149 JHCRJ700 : One Word A321NEO
150 fpetrutiu : Not going to happen. The other ones are smaller aircrafts. Sorry to burst your bubble.
151 ikramerica : Yes, for this RFP of 200 aircraft. And DL has said that they no longer see the urgency in replacing those as quickly as the old 757s. Sounds as if th
152 fpetrutiu : It's just me, but I don't see DL ordering Airbus. Especially with all their options for the 738's and all outstanding Airbus orders were pushed back
153 Post contains images AeroWesty : Thanks for clearing that up. I too thought the 757 felt different, and you're right, it is the window position and higher ceiling that creates a lot
154 sxf24 : Hate to burst your bubble, but airlines don't order economically or operationally inferior aircraft. A lower price can overcome slightly inferior eco
155 qfa787380 : And it may be for 200 aircraft. I think it's entirely likely that it will be 100+100 options and those options will be able to be taken as 737-900ER
156 gigneil : The re-engined planes weren't considered in this round. They were specifically excluded. NS
157 fpetrutiu : Interesting point. If you think back to the AA order, Boeing did say that they are "not" taking any additional 737RE orders until after it is approve
158 fpetrutiu : Your source?
159 Post contains links seabosdca : Jon, already cited several times in this thread. http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...elta-said-to-order-100-737-90.html
160 gigneil : The confirmed report of Jon Ostrower, which is all I need to believe it. Jetlanta, who is in the know on Delta matters at all times who said they are
161 Post contains links fpetrutiu : Try this on for size: Delta Air Lines (DL) is expected to announce a large order this week for Boeing 737-900s and 737-9s to replace its aging fleet
162 gigneil : I bet you can also find confirmed reports that Jesus walked on water and Santa Claus is bringing you something other than coal. The confirmed results
163 gigneil : I want to be really clear that we're splitting hairs here. The 737-900ER is a perfectly good airframe and it fits in Delta's fleet, especially if they
164 Post contains links fpetrutiu : Ok gigneil, let me give you a dose of your own medicine here. If you look at leeham as your God, here it is: LEEHAM: •Delta Air Lines deferred the h
165 1337DELTA764 : There are some innaccuracies in this article, as it states DL plans on replacing their 757-300 fleet, which is obviously not true as the 753s are way
166 gigneil : Right... I am fairly sure that goes along with what I said, and I'm pretty sure I'm the one that pointed you to that update. kthxbai. NS
167 sxf24 : Who has ordered operationally inferior aircraft just because it was available?
168 qfa787380 : Why don't we all wait and see what DL announces. Whilst the above reporters are generally very accurate did any of them get close to the actual size
169 gigneil : I think that's an amazing idea. We should just see what happens. Either way, its been a good day for both Delta and Boeing. NS
170 Post contains images astuteman : Interestingly, the points that you highlight support Gigneil's argument exactly. The new engined aircraft were excluded because.... They also support
171 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I have to agree with your there friend.. Not to misquote you, but we see that with the B737 "bashing" lately.... give it a year or two, we'll see it
172 qfa787380 : Some very creative and tempting financing went into the AA deal, firstly by Airbus and then by Boeing when they realised they could lose the whole or
173 Rheinwaldner : You, Keesje, most people here and I know quite good which aircraft are superior against their competitor: 77L vs A345, 77W vs A346, 787 vs A330, A330
174 Post contains images frigatebird : Maybe DL wants to have some more certainty on actual production ramp-up of the C-series.... After the A380 and 787, many airlines are concerned about
175 laca773 : The 739ER will fit very nicely into DL's fleet and the needs they have for such an a/c. What is DL going to do about an a/c in the 100-125 seat range?
176 fun2fly : They already have over 50 on order, they just add them in small increments annually vs. 100 at a time. 19 737-9000ER's coming on next year rumored to
177 Revelation : What seems to be missing from this statement is "Delta compared 737-900ER to A321-200 and found the 737 had x% greater per-mission costs when flown o
178 AAplat4life : The 739ER has evolved nicely from the original 739 model. Could it be better? Yes. Could the A321 be better? Yes. Without picking on one over the othe
179 bhmdiversion : Where is everyone getting this information? Delta posted this on DeltaNet: Media speculate on Delta aircraft orders ----------------------------------
180 Post contains links tistpaa727 : (Reply 179):Sorry Charlie... There is an RFP for the planes but no firm order. You can speculate all day long. Not sure what your point is. No one on
181 Cerecl : The Email did not deny the media speculation, it merely said there was no information to be released. Frankly, I don't get the point of this Email as
182 AA777223 : I take great exception to this comment. Every single bit of information on the 757 says it was specifically designed to compliment the 767 on routes
183 delimit : It would be hysterical if this turned out to be a totally unfounded rumor. But wow It's Delta.net; i.e. an internal communication.
184 Post contains images Stitch : And because it's an official communications venue of the company, Securities rules no doubt prevent them from acknowledging that DL intends to place
185 A5XX : A lot of airlines (and probably Delta) are in a ''wait and see'' mode in regard to the Cseries. They're waiting for Bombardier to throw confirmed figu
186 delimit : Sure, although no comment serves that purpose equally well. I'm interested I guess, in what motivated DL to send an internal denial, especially if an
187 dfambro : The Delta.net email is basically a no comment. It is not a denial.
188 Stitch : "Delta does not currently have any information to release regarding new aircraft" is not a denial, especially when they go on to say there is an acti
189 delimit : Well, that would be patently false, as they've announced they are in discussions with the various manufacturers. I guess I read that as a denial that
190 bjorn14 : Aaaah...the power of A.net
191 Stitch : DL employees read the news, as well, so I am guessing there has been a lot of chatter and scuttlebutt within the company about this order so to not s
192 1337DELTA764 : And I highly doubt the BoD will turn it down, as they have been pro-Boeing for many years.
193 Post contains images Stitch : I would hope DL management would not submit a purchase proposal to the BoD that the BoD would then not approve. Such a scenario would imply that neit
194 ikramerica : Uhm, do we? There are many who would say that the A321 is better than the 757 for any route the A321 can perform. And the jury is out on the A321 v.
195 panamair : When will you stop? The BoD that was there when the exclusive deal with Boeing was struck was the pre-bankruptcy Board; most of them are gone now as
196 1337DELTA764 : Also, if anyone remembers, when DL and NW agreed to the merger, the pilots agreed on a 739(ER) payscale, but not an A321 payscale. However, many Airbu
197 BMI727 : The board is actually pro-making money. It isn't an obstacle. All they have to do is agree on pay and add it to the deal. What do you expect the pilo
198 bobnwa : Are you saying that Delta would or wouldn't order an aircraft because the pilot pay scale did or didn't include that aircraft? That is not how things
199 jetlanta : Your predictions were NOT correct because the pay scales had NOTHING to do with it. Here is what had something do with it: Competitive aircraft perfo
200 seabosdca : Eventually, someone will be able to share the story behind this. I can't wait to hear it. Not surprised by that at all. The A321 is a competitive pro
201 delimit : I don't think DL and UA are really fair judges of Boeing AC versus airbus AC as there's that purchasing agreement in place. Or at least, the terms bo
202 fpetrutiu : AA was in the same boat. The purchasing agreement did not do one bit of difference. Airbus got the bulk for the order, or am I missing something here
203 lucky777 : How so? Are you insinuating that Airbus wouldn't provide Delta with the same type of discount AA received?
204 fpetrutiu : Agreed. This had nothing to do with payscales, nor will ever an aicraft order has to do anything with payscales. Sure it makes it easier, but in the
205 NeutronStar73 : Oh, come on! Really? Delta and UA are not "fair judges of Airbus aircraft? You cannot be serious! That statement alone paints you as an Airbus fanboy
206 rj777 : And..... standing by for the 1st rendering.....
207 delimit : Sigh. I'm a dyed in the wool Boeing fan. My fandom does not, however, affect my ablity to think rationally about something. Perhaps you should try thi
208 ikramerica : I know, right? As two of the largest airlines on earth and operators of both families, they would seem to be the FAIREST judge. Do they have favorabl
209 Post contains images par13del : The 737-9 should be competing with the A321-200, the NEO is a major upgrade. The 737-900ER was produced primarilly to correct deficiencies in the bas
210 qfa787380 : I completely disagree. The 737-900ER competes with the 321 The 737-9 competes with the 321Neo (both upgraded with new engines and presumably fairly m
211 delimit : Nor do I consider them such. My original comment was entirely in response to Reply 194, where the poster was using this potential order and a possible
212 lucky777 : -321 more capable how so? From what i've been able to gather online, the operating costs of both aircraft is nearly identical, with the -900ER given
213 flyorski : In most analysis cases, the 737-800 performs better compared with the A320 while the A321 performs better than the 737-900.
214 1337DELTA764 : Better than the 737-900, or the 737-900ER? Surely it outperforms the 737-900, however, that can't be said about the 737-900ER.
215 par13del : Has Boeing thrown out anything on the 737-9, I knew they had a RE for the baseline 737. Probably my error also as I just assumed the 737-9 was referr
216 ikramerica : That is just false. All those agreements (non-enforceable) do is set the bar. They set the entry point for negotiations with Airbus. There is no requ
217 flyorski : What I read said 737-900, it did not mention 737-900ER. I would be curious to know if the -900ER improved enough to not only meet, but pass the 321.
218 par13del : Initial customers of the -900 complained and Boeing made adjustments resulting in the 737-900ER, unless my memory fails me, all 737-900's coming off
219 Post contains images Stitch : All of that is most certainly true. But it sounds like Airbus was willing to take Boeing's "preferential pricing" head on, as well. After all, 10 yea
220 qfa787380 : That's OK. I'm assuming: 737-9 will be a re-engined 737-900ER and that the re-engined 737 will be applied to the 737-700/800/900ER but not the -600.
221 mayor : If Airbus gives a favorable financing package to an airline, how does that keep the playing field, level? Seems like Airbus is a master at this.......
222 stratosphere : AA comes to mind too Airbus gave them a sweet deal on the A-300-600's .
223 col : Wow, you guys are really up with the times. Do you also believe that Boeing is not able to give sweet deals also. The AA/CO/DL deal comes to mind, an
224 Drerx7 : Boeing no longer sells the 737-900. They are all 737-900ERs and its my understanding that they have slightly better economics than the 321. We cannot
225 delimit : Regardless, it definitely alters the playing field enough that using decisions made by either of those airlines cannot be taken as representational,
226 seabosdca : Of course, this assumes identical pricing, and the performance of these birds is always so close that small changes in pricing or availability can dr
227 bobnwa : Have not seen any evidence of the above statement.
228 delimit : Nor will you ever. It is entirely conjecture. We will never see the documents involved from either airline.
229 mayor : Which is why I brought the example, up. Members are saying that using DL and UA/CO as examples is not valid because of preferential deals they receiv
230 InsideMan : I can tell you that the price of one aircraft can differ up to 100% between two individual purchase agreements. Is this a strategic customer or not ,
231 Post contains images delimit : Yes, obviously, but when UA or DL go into negotiations, they already are getting a massive discount by Boeing on delivery positions that have already
232 mayor : Why isn't it? Both AA and UA have ordered both A & B a/c and in large numbers. We've only seen orders for 100 a/c for DL from Boeing, so the jury
233 delimit : UA inherited the deal with the merger so historic orders have no bearing. AA was discussed above. The playing field is permanently unlevel because of
234 Post contains images mayor : "historic orders have no bearing"???? So, what UA has ordered in the past, on their own, has no bearing? Whether or not there is an "agreement", do y
235 delimit : How about replying to the entire post rather than taking a snip of one tiny bit of it you find exception with? UA's historic orders have no bearing be
236 vin2basketball : Guys, correct me if I'm wrong on this one but... On sub 500nm missions; the 739ER and A321 are roughly at operating cost parity On 500-1200nm missions
237 ikramerica : Hhonestly, it's pretty clear that the only one who understands your point is you. So I guess we should give it a rest.
238 avek00 : Remember that in ordering aircraft, performance is but one factor. The costs of acquisition and operation matter greatly, too, and part of the NWA DNA
239 Post contains links cosmofly : According to Boeing http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737family/pf/pf_900ERtech.html The 900ER now has 1000lb more thrust at 28400lb with the CFM56-7B
240 mayor : Sorry.....I didn't realize you were the emoticon monitor. If there is basically no exclusivity in the agreement, then, to me the playing field is lev
241 delimit : Well I am, so shape up. That's basically my point. UA and DL are contractually guaranteed such fantastic treatment from Boeing that the scales are al
242 CMB320 : OMG! Put your balls back in your pants people! I've never seen such a ridiculous immature show of mine is bigger than yours than I do on airliners.net
243 Jacobin777 : Which doesn't mean they can't get "fantastic treatment" from Airbus. Price is just one of many variables and there is a lot of variability in this as
244 Post contains images mayor : I've been zipped up, the entire time. I thought that's what I was saying?
245 SEPilot : I have seen no figures that give the A321 a convincing edge over the 739ER (or the A321NEO and the 737-9, for that matter). They are, from what I can
246 flyorski : You guys have the worst arguments. Your both saying the same things and not understanding each other. If this order does get confirmed, what is the li
247 seabosdca : 1 extra row of seats, higher max structural payload, considerably better field performance (both due to higher thrust and to the longer gear), more c
248 SEPilot : This might just equalize the field performance issue, which I doubt is decisive to most operators. The more seats and higher structural payload come
249 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...but I wasn't quoting you... I guess at least we agree.. ...
250 Post contains links MarcoT : ? The highest available thrust option on the 321 is 33k lb, not 27k... http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...ft/a320family/a321/specifications/
251 seabosdca : I haven't seen an ACAPS for a 28k 737-900ER, but I'm skeptical. The difference is substantial and the A321 has a 33k engine option. For some operator
252 ikramerica : Me too. The only one who doesn't seem to understand that the only thing the "deal" does is set a price point for Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, et. al i
253 delimit : Jesus. If you want to drop it, it takes two. Again, that wasn't my point. To paraphrase You: If DL and UA order the 739 it shows that the 739 is on p
254 pnwtraveler : The diatribe of some people making the same point over and over gets so tiresome and ruins it for the majority of us who come here to enjoy aviation a
255 ikramerica : We get what you are trying to claim. But you are wrong. As for dropping it, you kept arguing your same point to anyone who would listen. Either way,
256 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Sooo...where's this announcement that some said were going to happen yesterday? I do believe DL has board meetings on Wednesdays so maybe tomorrow?
257 Post contains images mayor : And, as I said before, we're basing all this on media reports (remember, DL hasn't said anything, yet) of a 100 a/c order from Boeing. Maybe we should
258 PlanesNTrains : PLEASE: Do NOT read this post if the conversation about price-based bias towards Boeing bothers you in any way. -------------------------- In relation
259 Stitch : I am sure those contracts Boeing has with AA, UA and DL include escalation clauses to index against inflation. They also likely have pre-allocated del
260 glareskin : I think you stay in Hilton hotels way too often..... I agree that this is the big issue. Let's just assume that both families are close in specs. The
261 Post contains links Centre : After the slap on the facethat Boeing got with AA ordering the A320s, there is no way Boeing would allow another preferred client defect to Airbus aga
262 Stitch : Folks should also not forget that US and Airbus were the ones who started this whole "exclusivity" thing when US placed an order for 120 A320 family a
263 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : True. Curiously, US is absent so far from the NEO order list. They have a number of A32X's on order and they have taken delivery of dozens of A321's
264 Post contains links keesje : Delta had said in January that it planned to buy 100 to 200 narrow-body jets and seek options for 200 more, with deliveries starting as soon as 2013.
265 Post contains images InsideMan : Spot on. And also while Airbus can decide on short notice that they want to offer a lower BAFO just this once, Boeing will have to bear in mind that
266 par13del : Think about that for a second, Boeing always has to set baseline price, after all, they have to pay staff and suppliers to build the a/c, as Stitch m
267 bobnwa : Agree with this totally, Never have I seen so much made of nothing.
268 Post contains links and images SA7700 : This thread will be locked for further contributions. A continuation thread, on this topic, can be found here: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2) Any
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